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Does Anyone Prefer Toe-Clips to SPD?

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    #32
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,881 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Buchaill_Mor wrote: »
    I use SPD on my commuter bike. I do about 40k a day. Once you get used to the clipping/unclipping it is second nature, but there are a lot of times you know you are going to need to unclip so I tend to do it before I get to that point, like coasting to lights, or you think someone is going to be an idiot. I am not saying that things just don't happen, but I find they are once in a blue moon as opposed to every trip out.
    Im not worried about clipping/unclipping, Id put up with the discomfort and fear if there was any noticeable increase in power and speed but I'm struggling to see any, for example there have been 5 replies mentioning the safety of clipless vs flat in this thread and only one person saying he can pull up on a steep hill.

    how much of a difference does it make in peoples opinion on say a spin from Dublin up to the Sally Gap and back?


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    #33
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Thargor wrote: »

    how much of a difference does it make in peoples opinion on say a spin from Dublin up to the Sally Gap and back?

    A Lot!...try it!


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    #34
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,881 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Well I don't know exactly but I have read articles that say the pulling up effect on the pedals is pretty insignificant except maybe if you're sprinting. But that's besides the point. I'm not arguing against clipless. If you're racing you'll be using proper clipless. If you're commuting, touring or sportive riding, either go clipless or use flats. Fixed gear riding aside, toe-straps have no advantages in any scenario.

    Toe clips in this day and age are a fudge for people who are (undertandably) scared of proper clipless pedals and instead of being gentle introduction they mispresent the sheer nirvana of clipless pedalling.
    Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.


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    #35
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Thargor wrote: »
    how much of a difference does it make in peoples opinion on say a spin from Dublin up to the Sally Gap and back?

    Objectively - probably very little in terms of performance gains.
    Subjectively - it's much much nicer going for a long spin in clipless pedals.

    As for safety clipless are a bit safer due to less chance of your foot slipping off. Although negotiating the ramp in Glendalough Fayre can be difficult.


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    #36
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Thargor wrote: »
    Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.

    They do take a little bit of time to get used to but once you practise a bit it becomes second nature. The feeling of trepidation goes away. Unlike with toe straps.


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    #37
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,881 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?


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    #38
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Thargor wrote: »
    But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?
    In a word. No.:)

    I commute on flat pedals and it's just not as nice.


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    #39
    Buchaill_Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭Buchaill_Mor


    I think it is a personal thing. I find it makes a difference in lots of little ways. A smoother more consistant application of power when pulling away from lights. When going up even short inclines you just drop that person on flats hugging your rear wheel for no more effort as you are able to use more of the pedal stroke. Acceleration when pedaling to a higher speed is smoother and more consistent. And I feel safer in them, particularly bin wet conditions as they help me control the bike better and my feet don't slip off the pedals. That is just my opinion though.

    I think going up to Sally Gap you will find that clipless will assist you all the way around the pedal stroke. Pulling up takes practice but going up a steep, long incline, once mastered I find my legs are a lot fresher, though that could be a fitness thing. Plus instead of my thigh muscle on the front taking all the punishment of the constant down stroke, the work is shared by my gluteus muscle and bicep muscle on the back of the other leg with the opposite upstroke.


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    #40
    outfox
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭outfox


    Thargor wrote: »
    Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.

    You should be able to remove the toe cages and straps from the pedals, and you'll be left with flats.


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    #41
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,881 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Does anyone know if this article is true btw?

    http://www.rivbike.com/Articles.asp?ID=255
    When elite pedalers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us this:

    during normal pedaling at normal cadences, nobody pulls UP on the backstroke

    the elite/efficient pedalers push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do.

    Think about that until it sinks in and you're bored. The good pedalers----the guys in the logo costumes and the white sunglasses and shaved legs----minimize the downward force on the upward-moving pedal more. They don't pull up on it or even unweight it. They just minimize the downward pressure on it, so one leg isn't fighting the other as much.

    That is a far cry from the 360-degrees of power the clickers and media and experts promise you.

    The thing is, if all you can hope to do is minimize the downward force on the upward-moving pedal, how does it help to be clicked or strapped in?

    It doesn't and can't.


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    #42
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    All I'm saying is dont mock it till youve tried it.


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    #43
    Buchaill_Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭Buchaill_Mor


    I suspect you may have already made up your mind.


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    #44
    Alek
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    I might be a lousy rookie pedaller, but I can definitely tell when my foot is lifted from the sole of the shoe. And I can tell when it speeds me up.


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    #45
    mcgratheoin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    In terms of power output with clipless pedals, the upstroke isn't necessarily what I find the most useful addition, it's being able to pull through at the bottom of the downstroke - that "scraping something off the sole of your shoe" motion that helps to bring your other leg over the top and into the next downstroke (or the second half of the revolution). Wattbike has a good summary of how the power profile changes from beginner to elite athlete here and basically it can't be done without being clipped in.

    **edit** as an aside, I've tried the single leg exercises on the turbo and my legs are in bits after a very short time, suggesting to me that I don't pull at all!


    With regard to why I personally feel safer in clipless pedals, it's broadly the effect from zero risk of my feet slipping off the pedals. I wouldn't feel comfortable applying anything close to maximum effort on flats.


    For commuting, I generally clip out just before lights etc.. in case I need to stop, but the advice given here is the best - practice clipping in and out as much as possible - it'll become second nature soon enough.


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    #46
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Fian


    Thargor wrote: »
    But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?

    I use both as i said - road bike has clipless and commuter has flats.

    There is a significant difference when going for a weekend spin. I think the main thing is that you just don't need to pay any attention to keeping your foot on the pedal. I do take some of the load on the upstroke when I am climbing up stocking lane say, but that is not the important part. The big advantage is that you just don't have to keep track of where your foot is and make sure it doesn't slip off the pedal. You don't have to think about that. It is kind of surprising how much of a difference that makes over a four hour spin. On flats you are unconsciously adjusting your feet constantly as you pedal to keep them in the right place I think.

    for someone who is racing or pushing hard I guess clipless would probably have a bigger performance rather than tiredness impact, I am not going to be breaking any speed records or trying to even, so for me it is a comfort benefit rather than a speed benefit that I get out of them.

    Anyway I notice a big difference using clipless on the weekend. As has been pointed out nobody ever tends to go back, which tells the story i guess.

    On my commuter I am not going to be tired after my (7k) flat commute into my office. And I will be stopping frequently at lights and in traffic. Also it is easier not to have cycling shoes on when i arrive in work. So I haven't bothered to change to clipless, though nor am I thinking "oh no i couldn't go in in clipless it would be uncomfortable." After a bit of practice you unclip without thinking about it, you just need to develop the muscle memory. Most people do have a slow motion fall or two before that lesson gets properly burned into the brain.


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    #47
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Fian


    Thargor wrote: »
    Does anyone know if this article is true btw?

    http://www.rivbike.com/Articles.asp?ID=255

    No idea of course, but the crucial thing there is :

    "during normal pedaling at normal cadences, nobody pulls UP on the backstroke"

    This may be true, but is hardly surprising. When people are sprinting or struggling to get up a steep hill, that is when the pulling up is likely to be used, to take some of the effort onto different muscles. you are going to use the upstroke when you are working hard, not when you are pedaling along at a steady pace.

    Edit:

    And by the way - if buying clipless remember you need to match the pedal to a shoe/cleat. If you are starting off you could consider SPD pedals, which are for mountain biking. The shoes tend to be much easier to walk in, they apparently have a slight performance deficit (heavier, less stiff soles, narrower platform of connection to the pedal). The biggest objection to them tends to be "thats not how the pros do it" as far as i can see. But then don't take my advice i suppose, i haven't even shaved my legs.


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    #48
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,892 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Thargor wrote: »
    Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.

    My advice. Get Speedplay zero pedals. Easy in and easy out of. Practice makes perfect. Clip out well ahead of time, with a 2 sided pedal like Speedplays it easy to clip back into so it won't cost anything to clip out early.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #49
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    There's half clips you can pick up in halfords fir around 10 or 15 euro, they hold your foot in place without a strap. Quite handy for commuting or just getting used to having your foot more secure on the pedal. I used them for a while. They're no substitute for spd/ spdsl though.


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    #50
    Luxman
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Luxman


    Thargor wrote: »
    Does anyone avoid SPD altogether and just use normal flats on their roadbike?
    I resisted SPd for about 4 months when I started. Did a few sportive a on flat pedals. I only noticed the vast difference when I got SPd and after a few mins getting used to the clip in and out i would never go back. Another reason is that your feet won't slip off the pedals in wet conditions.


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    #51
    HivemindXX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭HivemindXX


    Thargor wrote: »
    But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?

    Cycling shoes are also nice, they have a rigid sole which effectively turns the entire length of your foot in to the pedal platform. This is pretty comfortable. You shouldn't really need to adjust the position of your foot, in fact I'd go so far as to say that being able to move your foot to the wrong position is a disadvantage. Actual SPD pedals (meaning not one of the other types of clipless pedals) have a recessed cleat and they are fine to walk around on off the bike.

    Note that clipless pedals are usually smaller and lighter than flats as well.

    However from what you say I think you'll be fine with regular platform pedals. I have clipless on my road bike and flats on my commuter and I don't feel less safe or less efficient with the flats. Toe clips are fine too, you don't actually need to tighten the straps if you don't want to. You can ride fine with the straps very loose although you lose most of the benefit of having them to be fair. They are a pain in the arse to get your foot in to though, being stuck behind someone who takes 5 goes to get their foot in after the light goes green is a regular commuting event for me. In the old days the toe clips were a separate piece that screwed in to the pedal and you could just take them off, I have no idea if that's still true. I doubt Giant will have any problem changing the pedals. I'm a little surprised they even come with the bike, peoples preferences vary so much that bikes often come with no pedals at all and each person buys whatever type suits them best.


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    #52
    Ole Rodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Ole Rodrigo


    Switch between MKS sylvan and SPD SLs. The advantage of flats/ toe clips is wearing regular shoes for short rides. They can also improve the aesthetics in some cases. You can calibrate the toe clips so that they are never too loose or too tight .


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    #53
    eclectichoney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭eclectichoney


    HivemindXX wrote: »
    I doubt Giant will have any problem changing the pedals. I'm a little surprised they even come with the bike, peoples preferences vary so much that bikes often come with no pedals at all and each person buys whatever type suits them best.

    That's what I did with mine - I just presumed there was no difference between flats and toe clip pedals with the toe clips removed and that it would be ok to take the clips off and just use the flat / normal pedals? :o Or do I need to get special flat pedals??


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    #54
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,892 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    eclectichoney wrote: »
    That's what I did with mine - I just presumed there was no difference between flats and toe clip pedals with the toe clips removed and that it would be ok to take the clips off and just use the flat / normal pedals? :o Or do I need to get special flat pedals??

    Pedals with clips used to be completely different to flats. I think it's still the same.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #55
    Yarisbob
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭Yarisbob


    I still ride with Shimano 600 rat traps on my vintage 979 Vitus

    You have to ride in traffic with the left strap loose so you can get your foot out ! Theres a small triangular "tit" that you hit with your toe to spin the pedal up and then you put your foot in and 2 ears on the front of the cleat engage with the front of the pedal - the cleat is basically a groove that engages the rear of the pedal.

    hen you are in you are in to stay in... Its hard at times to remember the straps !!

    I commute with Look Delta


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    #56
    eclectichoney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭eclectichoney


    Brian? wrote: »
    Pedals with clips used to be completely different to flats. I think it's still the same.

    Thanks for that! Do you think it's ok to just use the toe clip pedals without the clips? Me being a newbie I just figured a pedal was a pedal :o


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    #57
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    smacl wrote: »
    .. sh56 cleats (release turning foot in any direction) rather than the default sh51..
    Well, you learn something new every day! I have SPD's on my fixie and never knew what the difference was between SH51's and SH56's. Always used SH51's.

    (Excuse my ignorance but why would one wish to unclip in any direction? Would there not be a risk of catching one's heel in the spokes if twisting inwards? :confused:)


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    #58
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,892 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    eclectichoney wrote: »
    Thanks for that! Do you think it's ok to just use the toe clip pedals without the clips? Me being a newbie I just figured a pedal was a pedal :o

    I would say no. Go clip less ideally or cheap flats. Another option is cheap flats with half toe clips, that was my road bike setup as a child.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #59
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    mcgratheoin wrote: »
    In terms of power output with clipless pedals, the upstroke isn't necessarily what I find the most useful addition, it's being able to pull through at the bottom of the downstroke - that "scraping something off the sole of your shoe" motion that helps to bring your other leg over the top and into the next downstroke (or the second half of the revolution).

    I find that I can do this, approximately at least, using BMX-style pedals and rubber-soled shoes.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94693885&postcount=4

    I can't be bothered trying clipless, as I don't do any cycling where the advantages would outweigh having to wear non-normal footwear.


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    #60
    nomdeboardie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭nomdeboardie


    Thargor wrote: »
    Okay thanks, I wont be using clips though, I didn't realise you had to constantly loosen and tighten them as you went.

    For what it's worth, I use toeclips with the straps set at a constant position - just tight enough to allow me to 'pull up' on the pedals reasonably well when cycling, but loose enough pull out quickly if necessary

    (I've never tried clipless/cleats :o:eek::o, so can't compare, and it's possible I'd be blown away by the difference. Also, I've never raced or been on a group ride.)
    Darkglasses wrote: »
    ...
    Clipless - refers to all pedals where you clip into a pedal with a cleat on your shoe ...
    Yes. Methinks there lies the cause of much confusion among the uninitiated.
    I know now that the verb refers to 'clipping with cleats, not clips' as it were, but the lingo seems almost designed to obfuscate pacman.giftongue.png


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    #61
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    nomdeboardie wrote: »
    ... Methinks there lies the cause of much confusion among the uninitiated.
    I know now that the verb refers to 'clipping with cleats, not clips' as it were, but the lingo seems almost designed to obfuscate pacman.giftongue.png
    Not to mention two completely different cleat/pedal systems having very similar names - SPD & SPD SL.


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