3 National Broadband Scheme - how do I escalate a complaint?

watty · 07-06-2010 11:44am

It's possible 3 are now just subcontracting to ordinary Retail Satellite Internet.

Their original plan involves a Satellite still not launched. We pointed out at the time that their "partner" supplier (Avanti) did not have enough capacity for NBS.

Obviously 3 may need to negotiate a special (expensive) deal to meet their NBS commitments. It sounds very like they have not done this.

The NBS requirements in terms of speed, and cap on Satellite would cost maybe 3 to 4 times the entry level satellite package, reducing contention to NBS limits could also quadruple the price. So it sounds like 3 is reselling a package 1/10th of value or less of what the NBS demands.

Eircom lost out on NBS partially because they priced the Satellite part of the package properly based on a real service rather than Avanti Promises.

Eircom was mostly going to use Meteor (which is 100% owned by them), which is almost identical to 3's offering, with some DSL upgrades and Fixed Wireless for the lucky few, however eircom unlike 3 is a real ISP. The Department seems to have simply chosen the cheapest and either ignored technical advice/Due diligence or not bothered getting it as neither of the only two proposals left at the end met the original NBS specification.

FYI, Hylas (the proposed Avanti satellite) is mostly funded by ESA as it's partially experimental. Eutelsat's Kasat is a production Satellite launching this year with more capacity (About x10 more?).
http://www.totaltele.com/view.aspx?ID=455437

Broadband-by-satellite company Avanti Communications Group PLC Wednesday said the vehicle set to launch its Hylas 1 satellite may now not be ready in time for the launch in September, but this won't affect the launch schedule.

Originally set to launch on Falcon 9 (First experimental test flight last week), ESA got cold feet and supplied extra finance and negotiated Soyuz or Ariane launch via ESA European space port in South America. This will perhaps be late September or Early October. It then takes some weeks to commission a satellite assuming the launch was OK and the Satellite works (they have had assembly problems). It looks like Hylas may be available, if it works, at the end of NBS rollout instead of start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HYLAS

Eutelsat's Kasat on improved Tooway (if launch successful) could bring VSAT prices lower than 3's €19.95 NBS or normal price, making 3 supplied Satellite under NBS a more expensive option!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooway
http://www.techtir.ie/node/1000021
http://www.dailywireless.org/2010/04/08/broadband-satellites-looking-up/
Kasat from Eutelsat is launching 3rd Quarter 2010. (Sept to Dec?). I don't have exact date.

Sponge Bob · 07-06-2010 12:45pm

At the end of the day it is entirely up to three to source a satellite package that is compliant with the contract terms of the NBS and to ensure that their satellite NBS users are on this package. What Tooway are up to is irrelevant, strictly speaking. Three are entirely responsible for finding a satellite service that is compliant with the contract terms of the NBS and Three know this.

a) There are other suppliers who may be more suitable than Eutelsat/Tooway
b) Tooway evidently can supply more suitable packages than the cheap yellowpack one three put you on...that's from reading that Digiweb page. It looks like the 100MB an hour has a 2.4GB cap per month. You are entitled to 10Gb down. Fortunately they can provision them remotely and it would not require a visit or time wasted on your part.
c) The contract with the department gives an end user cap of 10GB down. This actually translates into 12Gb of inbound traffic to the Tooway'gizmo' (including error correction and encapsalation overhead). Having stripped this c.2GB of overhead out the Tooway box delivers the end user 10GB of usable data. You should not be charged for overhead and it should not be counted. This is a technological 'cost' of delivery. It is very important that you get a download meter app installed to measure the traffic in and out of the Tooway box from your own gear in case there is a disagreeement about real traffic and traffic including 'overhead' . You are entitled to 10GB Net per month!!!!

3 are obviously in breach of contract with the department when they put you on that 2.4Gb a month package. Do mention that the EU money is being misspent if the contract is not being fulfilled and that failure to supply the correct satellite service will result in a complaint to the EU Anti Fraud Office about the Department ....seeing as half the money comes from Brussels. That will focus all of them I assure you

I wonder how Analsys Mason let them do this to the NBS customers seeing as Analysys Mason have a contract to supervise the delivery of the NBS to the end use and to certify this with Brussels on behalf of the Department. I would ask the Department how many other NBS users are on the wrong satellite package and what Analysys have done about this and will do about this.

Then, once three start to roll over ( rather fast) , demand an apology in writing for putting you through an insulting time wasting procedure with some denial of service muppet in Mumbai and a categoric written assurance that such a denial of service will never occur again.

Do NOT deal with anybody by phone and insist that all communications are in writing from now on.

yuloni · 19-06-2010 4:37pm

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watty · 19-06-2010 5:26pm

3 can't change the terms.

The NBS contract with 3 specifies the speed and monthly cap. No matter how special for 3 the SBI pack is, if it doesn't meet the spec, 3 has broken their contract.

The contract with the department gives an end user cap of 10GB down. This actually translates into 12Gb of inbound traffic to the Modem. A 6Gbyte Cap breaks the contract!

3 is doing a lot of the subsidy as their price to Dept was predicated on Avanti's Hylass service, which may not launch till Dec 2010.

The hourly /daily allowances break the intent of the NBS contract.

yuloni · 19-06-2010 5:35pm

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Sponge Bob · 19-06-2010 6:47pm

Condi wrote: »

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The 1 week restriction is ridiculous, complain to the departmental email address about it and threaten the EU Anti Fraud office on them. Normal people are asleep between midnight and 7am.

yuloni · 19-06-2010 6:54pm

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Sponge Bob · 20-06-2010 12:39am

The contract between the government and three does not specify ( in essence) that the allowance is 6GB odd a month during normal waking hours only.

yuloni · 20-06-2010 2:00am

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cowboy.1981 · 21-06-2010 11:29pm

Condi wrote: »

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Condi, your accurate and detailed log of your experiences with NBS, while absolutely typical, is probably the most articulate ever to be published on Boards. While I can understand that you are totally exhausted from persevering and escalating these issues at this stage, can I plead with you to send one more email to communicate your final views to the DCENR, preferably copied to the EU, as suggested by SpongeBob.

While you may be content to put up with the non-compliant Satellite solution at this stage, the reasons you should continue to escalate are as follows,

(1) The NBS will expire in around 3 years and 9 months, after which you will likely face paying the full Retail cost >€120 per month for the satellite solution.

(2) 3 should not be continuing to receive the Government and EU subsidy while failing to meet the minimum contractual requirements for NBS. This money is fully recoverable from 3, and could be put to better use providing a proper solution for you and others.

yuloni · 24-06-2010 12:57am

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Sponge Bob · 15-10-2010 9:37am

Bump. Some people are too lazy or stupid to search, the important information is all here save for one small item.

Three have introduced a new repeater ( signal booster) since this thread was last active in June.

Repeaters are 100% FREE to people in weak NBS areas and UNAVAILABLE on other mobile networks and to 3 customers OUTSIDE NBS areas.

So don't bother asking. Sequence for NBS

In each case after the MiFi stage you must escalate as explained earlier in this thread. The 3 call centre is as useless and stupid as ever.

If Dongle does not work try Mifi
If Mifi does not work try Nextivity Repeater*
If Nextivity Repeater does not work send out engineer to install Coiler Repeater which has an external engineer installed antenna*
If Coiler Repeater does not work send out Satellite Installer.

* New Repeater slots into product line around here.

shg101 · 05-11-2010 11:34pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Bump. Some people are too lazy or stupid to search, the important information is all here save for one small item.

Three have introduced a new repeater ( signal booster) since this thread was last active in June.

Repeaters are 100% FREE to people in weak NBS areas and UNAVAILABLE on other mobile networks and to 3 customers OUTSIDE NBS areas.

So don't bother asking. Sequence for NBS

In each case after the MiFi stage you must escalate as explained earlier in this thread. The 3 call centre is as useless and stupid as ever.

If Dongle does not work try Mifi
If Mifi does not work try Nextivity Repeater*
If Nextivity Repeater does not work send out engineer to install Coiler Repeater which has an external engineer installed antenna*
If Coiler Repeater does not work send out Satellite Installer.

* New Repeater slots into product line around here.

I got a Nextivity Router in April. Is there a new different one?

Back in April they told me that the Nextivity wasn't compatible with a wireless modem. Disaster since I had bought a MiFi from them and had just brought one of the first iPads into the country! Managed to move the 4 devices (Window unit, coverage unit, MiFi, iPad) around so that things worked (but had to discover this on my own).

Things worked fine until the last month, when speeds have dropped off a cliff. Still get good pings though (91msec with 0.1Mbs download speeds!).

goodservice · 20-12-2010 6:23pm

cowboy.1981 wrote: »

This is absolutely normal experience for the mobile midband "service" offered by 3.

If you are in an NBS area, the Govt have contracted 3 to provide a mininum specification of "always-on" internet with 1.2Mbps down, 200kbps up, and 120ms latency. If you are not getting this 24/7 you need to keep escalating until they are forced to provide you with the Satellite alternative. The satellite is not dependent on 3's mobile network and appears to work ok, so far. However, the latency is much higher.

There is no point wasting your time with India. You need to escalate to the senior management in 3, and copy to all the relevant Government authorities who are paying taxpayers money to 3 for this debacle. (€80 Million of EU/Irish tax-payers money)

Others on Boards who have escalated have found this route successful. Below is the list of people you need to escalate to. Please persevere - don't let 3 get away with this shoddy service.

Even if you are continuing to pursue your issues with 3, it is important that the relevant authorities are informed that the service delivered to customers is not working as contracted.

Here is the list of people you should escalate to,
Minister Eamon Ryan, <eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie>

ComReg (you will need a complaint ref number from 3, if they ever respond to you) http://www.askcomreg.ie/tell_us/comp...ries.51.LE.asp

Patrick Kidney in Analysy Mason, the Consultants who are responsible for monitoring the performance of 3 under the NBS contract, <patrick.kidney@analysysmason.com>

Robert Finnegan, CEO 3 Ireland, 3rd Floor, 6-10 Suffolk Street, Dublin 2

The Office of the Comptroller & Auditor General, who is responsible for ensuring that public funds are not misappropriated <samantha_lee@audgen.irlgov.ie>

Your local Public Representatives (Ministers, Councillors)

Your local media (radio, newspapers)

Also claim a refund for the full period where the service failed to meet the minimum specification - you are entitled to it. If you don't get anywhere lodge a case with the Small Claims Court. It will cost you €15, but you can claim this back plus all your wasted time in expenses. 3 settle these cases before they go to court, because they don't want to pay lawyers to show up in court.

Don't give up, and thanks for sharing your problems on Boards. It helps others realise that they are not alone, when they read posts like yours.

Thanks so much for that info, it was so helpful. I signed up for 3's "broadband" in May, awful, awful, awful. I am at my wits end but will follow this advice. Do NOT ring, get a written record of everything. They are blaming their crap network on my modem. My average download speed is 0.50Mb/sec, it was supposed to be 7.2Mb/sec, after 6pm it goes to 0.04 Mb/sec average. The upload isn't even worth talking about. Will they give me the contention rate? No, because they are oversubscribed and the congestion is through the roof.

They want to "repair" my modem, I have to send it by post (NO WAY). I don't trust them, I'm sure it will have been "damaged" in transit. It takes 15-20 days minimum and you're without service and no replacement. If it arrived by courier why can't it be picked up by courier?? If the speed, congestion, cutting out, capping of usage, websites freezing etc etc etc were the modem, why does my crap service fluctuate at different times of day? Why does my speed plummet after 6pm? Why do I read thousands of complaints with identical problems? Do all these people need their modem repaired??

3 are the worst company I have ever dealt with, they take frustration to a new level. They are probably hoping that people get sick of it and drop it but PLEASE don't do that. If everyone complains they will have to do something. As far as ComReg goes, why aren't they enforcing their legal powers under the Communications Act? I have a complaint in since 15.11.10 and they have done nothing. I was told by one of their reps that their only job was to "open the lines of communication". How's that for an abdication of responsibility? And don't get me started on 3's call centre staff, hard neck is too nice a way to put it, absolutely brazen bare faced lies. I only wish I read the reviews on the web before I signed up.

I wrote to the 3 Head Office in Dublin and they didn't even reply. Honestly I have no words to describe how truly awful their service is in every way. They are trying to grind people down by making it as difficult as possible. I've lost count of the hours I've spent on the phone, only to hear their "diagnostics" of "delete temporary internet files" from my computer to improve the speed??

If they think I am paying to get out of this contract with an abysmal service they have another think coming. They should NOT be allowed to operate. They are an absolute disgrace and so are ComReg for standing by and alllowing them. They have not asked 3 to corroborate any of their lies with facts and figures, they get away with excuses, generic comments and crap awful service. It makes me livid, the injustice of it.

Sponge Bob · 21-12-2010 10:38am

Are you in an NBS area, you never said.

dos7749 · 31-12-2010 1:39am

I would appreciate if anyone could PM me a sample of a complaint letter for 3 NBS to be emailed to ComReg to request an external antena to be installed. Thanks to all who replied helping me with this most frustrating adventure.

rarasek123 · 29-01-2011 10:42pm

I should have read this thread earlier. I just cancelled my contract and I should have done it long time ago. During my 15 month with 3, I rang 1913 nubmer of times but only when I said I wanted to cancel they started offering upgrade of a modem (binding me to another 12 months with them) or diagnostic of the problem and external antena or satellite. But I'm not iterested in finding out if it would produce any improvement in my connection. I'm going to Vodafone.

Sponge Bob · 07-10-2011 1:25pm

What is the story on repeaters?

I hear both the nextivity and coiler units are no longer used and that some Korean tech is used instead.

yuloni · 07-10-2011 9:21pm

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rob180 · 07-10-2011 9:40pm

I have the Korean repeater since i join 3 under the NBS. It does improve the reception of the E122 modem.

yuloni · 07-10-2011 11:14pm

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rob180 · 08-10-2011 12:17am

Condi wrote: »

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It's made by SOLiD Technologies, Inc.
Model , S/N HR-3CHA-0202
Their website is www.st.co.kr

Hope that helps Condi

Sponge Bob · 15-10-2011 7:26pm

Pat Rabbitte will entertain complaints according to his own National Broadban Scheme Complaints procedure BUT you gotta give three their 10 working days to fix the problem first.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-10-11.1339.0&s=broadband#g1340.0.q

Analysys Mason "monitor" nothing, contrary to Rabbittes weasel words. They sit on their holes in Dublin countersigning EU funding drawdown requests for the Dept of Comms, that is all. High time someone brought this farce to Brussels or the EU Auditors.

Currently, the minimum download speed available to NBS broadband customers is 1.6Mbps and the minimum upload speed is 1.2Mbps, with a maximum contention ratio of 22:1. A further contractual upgrade will take place in October 2012, which will increase the minimum download speed to 2.3Mbps and the minimum upload speed to 1.4Mbps, with a maximum contention ratio of 18:1. Any NBS customer experiencing problems with the NBS service can contact 3’s customer care centre 24 hours a day, 7 days a week by phone at 1913 (free of charge). Additionally, a team of field engineers has been established to address NBS specific maintenance issues at customer’s premises.

My Department has a role when customers have fully utilised the established complaints process. It operates a dedicated NBS mailbox, which NBS customers can contact by email at nationalbroadbandscheme@nbs.ie with any comments or complaints they may have about their NBS service.

Dude2play · 07-11-2011 6:10pm

rob180 wrote: »

It's made by SOLiD Technologies, Inc.
Model , S/N HR-3CHA-0202
Their website is www.st.co.kr

Hope that helps Condi

Hi I Have one of these Repeaters/ Can you change the Aerial to a External one
Thnaks

rob180 · 07-11-2011 6:33pm

Dude2play wrote: »

Hi I Have one of these Repeaters/ Can you change the Aerial to a External one
Thnaks

Not sure Dude2play, but it doesn't look too difficult to change it.

Dude2play · 08-11-2011 3:25pm

Thanks rob180
E-mailed SOLiD Technologies, Inc.
They Passed on me Request to The Branch Manager in The UK
I Will Post Results & Pictures when they contact me Again
Thanks for Your Help & To all the others above ;-)

Dude2play · 07-12-2011 10:49am

Well After i Called 3 Mobile 52 Times, Usually on the Weekend & When i Go Home Every Night (In a Nice Friendly Manner) i thought i finally got Somewhere...After being asked to do the Speedtest ** N.B keep a list of test Results 4 times a day for a Week really Helps**
And telling them that i Crossed Ref the GPS coordinates on Google Maps of there mast to my house to get a Direct beam>>>>
Three sent me one of those txt msgs saying that i would be contacted in 3 working days (Funny they always send it on a friday)

Three Sent out a Engineer to Take a Look at my Repeater..
He Called at about 2pm (I was at Work) and Did a Signal Test From outside. I Was Talking to Him on the Phone and He Was Sound.
The Tech Went into the House and Reversed the Little White Box on the Repeater so that it could be Stuck to the Window Outside...

He Said that the Signal was Good (Only Because its 2pm in the Day and the main traffic was not already on Line Yet) and Left.

I Got a Call from my Wife Telling me That the Ping/Upload/Download had taken a Nose dive so i Phoned the Guy Back.. Ya i Got his Number...

He Said that He Would Fail the Signal Test and Send in a Report...

1 1/2 Weeks later i phoned 3 to ask what had Happened...???
I Was told that it had gone to The National Broadband Team in Dublin and They Would contact me in 3 working Days (Again Msg Sent on Friday).

Well Today is Wed and Low and Behold i got a Call from 3 Dublin (Again not on a Private number) who said that the Engineer Would Be out on Friday to Fit a External Aerial on my Roof....

Fingers are Crossed so i will let you All know the Outcome..
P.S My Stats on COD Black ops Has Really taken a Beating Because of this... To Everybody Elce Hang in there Kitty!!!!!

Dude2play · 07-12-2011 10:54am

P.S to rob180
I Sent a Email to SOLiD Technologies, Inc.
And i Got this Reply:

Hello Joe & Padraic,
The customer is looking for outdoor antenna with our Home Repeater for better coverage.
I know you do have great outdoor antenna solutions with our HR.
Could you help him to get it properly?

That was on the 8th November, but Still have Recived nothing Yet...

Sponge Bob · 07-12-2011 12:33pm

To be honest, if it goes down every evening more or less from 7pm onwards no amount of aerials will do anything for you.

jor el · 07-12-2011 2:23pm

Exactly, improved signal will do nothing to improve on a congestion related problem. Only if you lose the signal completely will an aerial make a difference.

Signal strength and speed are not linked.

3 National Broadband Scheme - how do I escalate a complaint?

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