The army, an aid to the civil powers?

T-Boner · 10-10-2007 10:42am #1

Question.

If the Defence Forces are an aid to the civil powers (Garda) why are they (the D.F.) not backing up armed garda units on the streets of Dublin and Limerick instead of escorting securior van's.

I think its one thing for a scumbag to see a garda checkpoint down on Sheriff St. but an altogether different thing to see a strong army patrol walk through the area.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 10-10-2007 10:45am

isn't that called martial law?

purple'n'gold · 10-10-2007 10:46am

You only see strong army patrols walking through areas that are under martial law.
We are not under martial law, and it is up to the states police force to deal with police matters, not the army.

mikemac · 10-10-2007 10:50am

T-Boner wrote:

I think its one thing for a scumbag to see a garda checkpoint down on Sheriff St. but an altogether different thing to see a strong army patrol walk through the area.

That garda prescence is doing nothing. I drove through there on Monday on my motorbike and had kids throwing stones at me :mad:
It's protecting the scum, not cutting out messing and anti-social behaviour

Back on topic:
They are already an aid to civil powers.
For instance, if there is ever a large scale hostage situation and the ERU don’t have the manpower to cope, then the Army Rangers will be brought in.

homah_7ft · 10-10-2007 10:50am

The Garda commisioner has been offered the use of the army for Limerick and is evaluating how useful it would be.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1009/crime.html

Dave! · 10-10-2007 10:53am

It is a police matter. The killing yesterday happened within a few minutes of the ARU. There are armed police patrolling these areas yet it still happens.

How about anybody convicted of using a firearm during a crime is given 25 years automatically? Maybe knock the last 5 off for good behaviour.

What's the penalty now? I'm not sure... and is it enforced by the judiciary?

Also there was a bloke on the radio calling for the Special Criminal Court to be used to try these people. Any legal heads wanna tell me if that's a good idea or no?

_blank_ · 10-10-2007 11:06am

The country is becoming a joke.

It was alright when it was scummers killing each other off, but when innocent bystanders began to be killed too, then it was obvious that the government needed to give the Gardaí stronger powers.

What, exactly, are the army going to do anyway?

Also, the judges need to take a long hard look at themselves, and start giving proper sentences.

That fúcking scummer who took that girl up to the mountains for a spot of rape, sexual assault and killing was given 12 years, with 4 suspended :eek:

Should be castrated and publically humiliated, then imprisoned for forty years. He is of no use to society.

The PC brigade with their 'rights for prisoners" can fúck right off too.

These people deserve no rights.

connundrum · 10-10-2007 11:33am

Surely we'd have a stronger police presence if the huge number of Guards involved in administration were released onto the streets. Theres no need for the Army to be involved once we properly use the resources arlready available to the Guards.

I remember at around Christmas time for the operation freeflow business that there were Guards on every street corner etc. Where the hell have they all gone? That kind of presence should be visible 365 days a year. I don't think its unreasonable to ask of it either.

Free up the pencil pushers!

lezizi · 10-10-2007 11:40am

A few years ago when everything was kicking off in Limerick, the army were patrolling the streets. The were armed. It didnt seem to make too much of a difference but things did seem to quieten down. It was just intimidating to every normal person here being faced with an armed solider on the streets.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-10-2007 12:10pm

Mordeth wrote:

isn't that called martial law?

I don't think so as the army would only act as a back up to the guards and not administer law and punishment.

I don't remember the army being deployed on the streets of Limerick like one poster said. But I do remember them being deployed during the Don Tidy kidnapping and the hunt for 'Dessie (The border fox) O'Hare' and no one said it was 'martial law'.

Our Defence Forces have extensive knowledge of policing hostile area's oversea's so its probably not a bad idea considering using that knowledge as a short term stop gap here.

The army has also worked along side the garda in Sarajevo & Kosovo successfully.

Probably not a bad idea, however I can't see a government in liberal (weak as fvck) Ireland giving the nod to this idea.

Slow Motion · 10-10-2007 12:17pm

It'll never happen and bringing it up is just a smokescreen anyway to deflect from the real issue. Not enough Guards on the street and too many flying desks. And sure why bother arresting scumbags anyway when they will be on the street again in no time, and if they do end up inside they can just order some coke and hookers on their mobile and watch the big match on the plasma T.V.

lezizi · 10-10-2007 12:18pm

Mairt wrote:

I don't think so as the army would only act as a back up to the guards and not administer law and punishment.

I don't remember the army being deployed on the streets of Limerick like one poster said. But I do remember them being deployed during the Don Tidy kidnapping and the hunt for 'Dessie (The border fox) O'Hare' and no one said it was 'martial law'.

Our Defence Forces have extensive knowledge of policing hostile area's oversea's so its probably not a bad idea considering using that knowledge as a short term stop gap here.

The army has also worked along side the garda in Sarajevo & Kosovo successfully.

Probably not a bad idea, however I can't see a government in liberal (weak as fvck) Ireland giving the nod to this idea.

They were definitely here it was about 5 years ago when everything kicked off they were armed patroling the streets and certain estates were closed in no one who wasnt from the area could enter. It was around the same time we got the garda helicopter. It was crazy

um7y1h83ge06nx · 10-10-2007 12:19pm

Army Ranger Wing would be a good unit to deploy to aid the gardaí:

http://www.military.ie/army/ranger/index.htm

They are trained in urban areas:

Training is carried out on gas and oil rigs off Ireland's Atlantic coast, in remote rural areas and in the urban environment.

cornbb · 10-10-2007 12:25pm

Christ, the idea of using the army to police a modern European democracy is insane. We're not some unstable central European newborn democracy. At least we're not supposed to be. Someone on the radio this morning suggested introducing internment to tackle crime :eek: So we have a few armed gangs and a strong presence of scum - other countries have dealt with worse problems without resorting to martial law or stripping away civil liberties.

I reckon the solution would be to greatly increase the number of armed and elite garda units on patrol. That way we get to police the country more effectively without sacrificing basic liberties or arming the force as a whole.

We also need to get civilians dealing with Garda paperwork. Was dealing with a few gardai in Limerick recently, the amount of office work they have to deal with is unreal. A large number of them down there appear young and inexperienced, but thats another story.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 10-10-2007 12:30pm

cornbb wrote:

Christ, the idea of using the army to police a modern European democracy is insane. We're not some unstable central European newborn democracy. At least we're not supposed to be. Someone on the radio this morning suggested introducing internment to tackle crime :eek:

United Kingdom?

It deployed soldiers in Northern Ireland for decades and also introduced internment there.

Dave! · 10-10-2007 12:32pm

Gabrielle Faithful Chemist wrote:

United Kingdom?

It deployed soldiers in Northern Ireland for decades and also introduced internment there.

And that worked a treat.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-10-2007 12:33pm

Gabrielle Faithful Chemist wrote:

United Kingdom?

It deployed soldiers in Northern Ireland for decades and also introduced internment there.

Well that has to be the most ill thought out post ever, in the entire 'Web universe.

Dyr · 10-10-2007 12:35pm

DesF wrote:

The country is becoming a joke.

It was alright when it was scummers killing each other off, but when innocent bystanders began to be killed too, then it was obvious that the government needed to give the Gardaí stronger powers.

.

The gardai have some of the most draconian powers on the books in western europe. The solution would involve them getting the finger more than anything else. But then this problem didnt spring up over night, its mostly due to what both the gardai and govt considered to be their priorities when it came to policing over the last two decades. gate left open, horsey long gone.

Incidentally most AH characters were delighted when the scumbags started capping each other. Its not my style to crow...but i told yiz where this would end

T-Boner · 10-10-2007 12:36pm

Bambi wrote:

but i told yiz where this would end

So its ended now, its all over?.

Dyr · 10-10-2007 12:36pm

Also, we need to hold the army in reserve just in case the binmen go on strike again

um7y1h83ge06nx · 10-10-2007 12:40pm

DaveMcG wrote:

And that worked a treat.

Well I'm not debating the effectiveness of those tactics but they have been using within the E.U.

I honestly don't think the state should take organised crime lying down.

Our country has faced greater dangers and troubles, particularly the violence and mayhem of the War of Independence and the Civil War.

The people and Dáil Éireann should take pride in our country and rigorously defend it when it is under threat, whether the threat is foreign or domestic. I believe that the lives of innocent people are under threat from these criminals.

_blank_ · 10-10-2007 12:41pm

Bambi wrote:

Also, we need to hold the army in reserve just in case the binmen go on strike again

Now that I do remember.

cson · 10-10-2007 12:41pm

Special Criminal Court = Court with no jury afaik.

You can bang on about giving longer sentences to criminals but until this country has the prison capacity to deal with the extra numbers then this isn't going to happen.

If I was being unreasonable, deportation ftw.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 10-10-2007 12:42pm

Mairt wrote:

Well that has to be the most ill thought out post ever, in the entire 'Web universe.

I don't think so. It's a pure statement of fact.

The British government did deploy soldiers to aid policing within it's own borders (Northern Ireland).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,,2138431,00.html

Internment was introduced as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_4071000/4071849.stm

Fact, not opinion.

6th · 10-10-2007 12:45pm

Bring in the Army for house to house searches in trouble areas .. I know it would be a big job but imagine the bounty!

indough · 10-10-2007 1:16pm

Gabrielle Faithful Chemist wrote:

I don't think so. It's a pure statement of fact.

The British government did deploy soldiers to aid policing within it's own borders (Northern Ireland).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,,2138431,00.html

Internment was introduced as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_4071000/4071849.stm

Fact, not opinion.

I don't understand how its relevant to the topic though as the present criminal situation in the Republic is nothing like the situation in the north at that time.

cornbb · 10-10-2007 2:32pm

Gabrielle Faithful Chemist wrote:

I don't think so. It's a pure statement of fact.

The British government did deploy soldiers to aid policing within it's own borders (Northern Ireland).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,,2138431,00.html

Internment was introduced as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_4071000/4071849.stm

Fact, not opinion.

It may be fact but it was in the most desperate of circumstances. What happened in NI in the 70s was close to open warfare - while organised crime in Ireland is a serious problem its hardly comparable to the NI situation. Even at that, it can be argued that the presence of a military in NI was detrimental to fighting crime.

But we're getting off topic now. The point is, the principle of armed forces is to defend a country from foreign powers. Using them as a police force should be a very last resort, when total meltdown is inevitable. They are not trained as a police force. The government offering the use of the army is a ludicrous, lazy and drastic PR stunt, they need to get their thumbs out and strengthen the gardai and judiciary.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-10-2007 2:40pm

cornbb wrote:

But we're getting off topic now. The point is, the principle of armed forces is to defend a country from foreign powers. Using them as a police force should be a very last resort, when total meltdown is inevitable. They are not trained as a police force. The government offering the use of the army is a ludicrous, lazy and drastic PR stunt, they need to get their thumbs out and strengthen the gardai and judiciary.

An army is also there to defend the country from domestic threats too.

As for total meltdown. At what stage do you think it we should consider the use of military force to defend citizens against gangland crime?. It seem's to me that gangster's can murder at will now, and god forbid the innocent who might get in the way.

Is the money carried in securicor van's more valuable than human life?.

Raids on securicor van's are hardly, or were never, at ''melt down''.

cornbb · 10-10-2007 2:49pm

Mairt wrote:

An army is also there to defend the country from domestic threats too.

As for total meltdown. At what stage do you think it we should consider the use of military force to defend citizens against gangland crime?. It seem's to me that gangster's can murder at will now, and god forbid the innocent who might get in the way.

Is the money carried in securicor van's more valuable than human life?.

Raids on securicor van's are hardly, or were never, at ''melt down''.

I'm not trying to trivialise the organised crime problem we have here, I know its serious, but the gardai need to be able to cope with it. There are plenty of countries with far bigger problems with gang crime than us and you don't see soldiers patrolling their streets. An army is simply not intended to police the streets during peacetime. The police need to be strengthened.

I don't agree with the army's role in protecting securicor vans either btw, but thats not the point here.

In the unlikely event the army are called in, what are they going to do? They can't investigate crime. With respect to the military, they can be a visual deterrent, they can intimidate people and perhaps shoot at people, and thats about it.

humbert · 10-10-2007 2:51pm

Mairt wrote:

Is the money carried in securicor van's more valuable than human life?.

Raids on securicor van's are hardly, or were never, at ''melt down''.

A securicor van is an obvious target for attack, the threat of which can be mitigated by the brute force the army provides. I think tackling criminal gangs is going to require a slightly more sophisticated approach.

cornbb · 10-10-2007 3:04pm

Both the gardai and senior military officers have pretty much dismissed the idea. Its pretty much another bout of verbal diarrhea from the politicians:

From http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bemused-gardai-strongly-oppose-plan-to-draft-in-army-1139055.html

Senior Garda officers have dismissed the suggestion that the Army should be drafted in to help tackle gangland crime.

Officers were baffled as to why Justice Minister Brian Lenihan did not rule out the idea when it was mooted in the Dail by Fine Gael justice spokesman Charles Flanagan.

Mr Lenihan said he would pass on the suggestion to Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy. Gardai last night regarded his failure firmly to reject it as an embarrassing gaffe.

Mr Flanagan later indicated he believed that military intelligence could have a role to play in the gangland fight.

But this was also rejected by gardai, who pointed out that the military's only involvement in gathering intelligence was against suspected associates of international terrorism groups, such as those with links to al-Qa'ida.

High-ranking Army sources also said they regarded the idea as bizarre, as soldiers were not trained to deal with gangsters.

The Defence Forces currently have a role in providing "aid to the civil power". This includes providing armed escorts alongside the gardai for cash shipments in transit, assisting with security at Portlaoise jail and, if necessary, at other vital installations, and supplying ordnance expertise through the Army bomb squad.

Senior gardai pointed out that almost 3,000 members of the force were licensed to carry firearms and were fully trained in their use.

The general secretary of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, Joe Dirwan said last night his members would be strongly opposed to bringing in the Army.

He said this idea had been tried in Northern Ireland and had failed. He was satisfied that the Army would not be in favour of it either.

T-Boner · 10-10-2007 3:06pm

How about a garda presence with an army mobil security group?.

I'm sure the army is well up to operating more aggressive checkpoints than the garda. So have a garda presence operating alongside the army with random checkpoints. But actively searching car's and doing identity checks on the occupants and not just checking for road tax.

A highly mobil army/garda security group could also throw up a ring of steel very quickly and cordon off whole area's for vehicle/person checks when there's a murder.

Dave! · 10-10-2007 3:55pm

T-Boner wrote:

How about a garda presence with an army mobil security group?.

I'm sure the army is well up to operating more aggressive checkpoints than the garda. So have a garda presence operating alongside the army with random checkpoints. But actively searching car's and doing identity checks on the occupants and not just checking for road tax.

A highly mobil army/garda security group could also throw up a ring of steel very quickly and cordon off whole area's for vehicle/person checks when there's a murder.

How do you think the residents in Limerick would react to army checkpoints and random searches on their vehicles?

Not to mention that it's the police's job...

How about adequately resourcing the Gardai?
Introducing 40+ year sentences for shooting a Garda?
25+ year sentences for using a gun in the commission of other specified crimes?
And how about the judges actually IMPOSE the f*cking penalties?

The army should only be used when the security of the state is under threat (eg. paramilitaries aiming to overthrow it). The criminals are just after money and if someone gets in the way, then they get shot. That's not the same as them actively attacking the state.

The gangs aren't sh*tting themselves because of guns... The rival gangs have more guns than the Gardai, yet it doesn't deter them from having 'wars'. If they thought that they would (a) be caught, (b) be sentenced to 40 years, (c) not have a TV, radio etc., in their cell, and (d) have no chance of getting out -- THEN maybe they'd think twice about shooting a Garda.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-10-2007 4:07pm

DaveMcG wrote:

How do you think the residents in Limerick would react to army checkpoints and random searches on their vehicles?

Not to mention that it's the police's job...

How about adequately resourcing the Gardai?
Introducing 40+ year sentences for shooting a Garda?
25+ year sentences for using a gun in the commission of other specified crimes?
And how about the judges actually IMPOSE the f*cking penalties?

The army should only be used when the security of the state is under threat (eg. paramilitaries aiming to overthrow it). The criminals are just after money and if someone gets in the way, then they get shot. That's not the same as them actively attacking the state.

The gangs aren't sh*tting themselves because of guns... The rival gangs have more guns than the Gardai, yet it doesn't deter them from having 'wars'. If they thought that they would (a) be caught, (b) be sentenced to 40 years, (c) not have a TV, radio etc., in their cell, and (d) have no chance of getting out -- THEN maybe they'd think twice about shooting a Garda.

Back in the early 90's there was an army/garda 'ring of steel' around Dublin when there was a loyalist threat against the republic with random vehicle searches.

Like you I'm all for giving the police more powers to tackle crime, but I think in the intrim giving consideration to the defence forces enforcing the garda presence on our streets is worthy of consideration.

It would only be a stop gap measure I'm sure (I'd hope).

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-10-2007 4:14pm

T-Boner wrote:

How about a garda presence with an army mobil security group?.

I'm sure the army is well up to operating more aggressive checkpoints than the garda. So have a garda presence operating alongside the army with random checkpoints. But actively searching car's and doing identity checks on the occupants and not just checking for road tax.

A highly mobil army/garda security group could also throw up a ring of steel very quickly and cordon off whole area's for vehicle/person checks when there's a murder.

I agree with most things you said. But I'd sincerely hope it would only be an intrim measure while laws are put in place to re-enforce the cops on our streets and a complete overhaul of our justice system.

timmywex · 10-10-2007 4:32pm

my 2cents:

a role of the army is as an aid to civil power, now, walking the streets would be doing this, they do it in France for one because i remember seeing them in train stations during the summer, they escort the security vans, once again, an aid, they do some checkpoints with the guards, i think they just dont want to admit they(gardai) are gettin help from the army. It makes them look bad

gurramok · 10-10-2007 4:36pm

Give the Gardai more resources. It ain't no co-incidence that 85% of few hundred or so gun murders in last 10 years remained unsolved and before anyone says it, not all of the few hundred assassins have been popped by their rivals!!
And as said, tackle the courts system, more prison places and where judges actually jail offenders with real sentences.

Sealing off areas won't work, gangsters are not confined to traditional spots. A siege mentality will not go down well in Stillorgan or Dundrum

Dave! · 10-10-2007 5:27pm

Mairt wrote:

Back in the early 90's there was an army/garda 'ring of steel' around Dublin when there was a loyalist threat against the republic with random vehicle searches.

That's fair enough (and encouraged) when there's a threat against the state and the citizens, but for dealing with mere criminals it's unnecessary.

I don't think that there's much to be gained from rolling out the army to tackle crime. Might as well have them pursuing joyriders while we're at it!

An Citeog · 10-10-2007 6:06pm

T-Boner wrote:

I'm sure the army is well up to operating more aggressive checkpoints than the garda. So have a garda presence operating alongside the army with random checkpoints. But actively searching car's and doing identity checks on the occupants and not just checking for road tax.

Yeah, because we don't have enough traffic problems already!

The key to tackling crime, particularly gangland crime is in the judicial system. All the work that's put in to catching criminals, building cases etc is all leading up to one thing: the criminal being given a custodial sentence. There's no point in arming the gardaí or getting the army involved if the real problem lies with the courts and more specifically, the leniency of judges. This is a problem that needs to be addressed and urgently. If it's a case of there not being enough prison spaces, then we need to build more prisons. Quite simplistic you might say but nothing else seems to be working.

All charges related to gang crime should be brought before the Special Criminal Court. The difference between this court and the Central Criminal Court (for those of you who don't know) is that the case is heard by a panel of 3 high court judges, rather than the typical judge and jury. The purpose of this is to stop subversive organisations (eg. criminal gangs or paramilitary organisations) from being able to influence those on the jury through whatever means.

Poccington · 10-10-2007 6:16pm

Gabrielle Faithful Chemist wrote:

Army Ranger Wing would be a good unit to deploy to aid the gardaí:

http://www.military.ie/army/ranger/index.htm

They are trained in urban areas:

Any Recruit in the DF will cover fighting in urban areas in their training. It's not just specific to the lads in the Wing.

Orange69 · 10-10-2007 6:26pm

I don't understand why the government wont implement a much harsher penal system...?

Why the fcuk is Ireland so soft on crime??

eroo · 10-10-2007 6:29pm

some of the ****e here is frightening.'bring in the Rangers','army patrols'!!wtf!!hahaha,do you think the SAS would be patrolling the East End in London?not a chance.the army have their own roles that are completely different.this is just the w*ankers in opposition(govt) hyping things up to make them look worse than they are.the Gardai have been dealing with things like this for years,like in '03 when things were bad in Limerick,ERU and Gardai calmed it down within weeks.give the Gardai support and resources and they can seriously tackle the gangs...

hahaha,seriously the Ranger Wing patrolling the streets,has to be one of funniest things ive ever heard,as well as one of the worst suggestions ive ever heard!

good night folks,
eroo

Dave! · 10-10-2007 6:44pm

Good night eroo!

The army, an aid to the civil powers?

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