England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

JustinDee · 19-03-2012 9:12pm

JRant wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, how many Pacific Islanders have played for the All-Blacks and Wallabies. You don't see many people laughing at them when there winning World Cups.
If a player qualifies for a country and is good enough to get picked good on them. How many of us would complain if Isa was togging out in green?

Don't forget that the best known Samoan, Tongan and Fijian intls tend to be New Zealanders.

irishbucsfan · 19-03-2012 9:14pm

I have no problem with players qualifying for other countries. I have a bit of a problem with countries actively seeking out young players from other countries in the hopes of making them qualify in the future.

JustinDee · 19-03-2012 9:23pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have no problem with players qualifying for other countries. I have a bit of a problem with countries actively seeking out young players from other countries in the hopes of making them qualify in the future.

Like Geoghegan, Henderson, Maggs or the Easterby bros?

Podge_irl · 19-03-2012 9:25pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Like Geoghegan, Henderson, Maggs or the Easterby bros?

I think he was more talking about seeking out players with the intention of them qualifying through residency.

danthefan · 19-03-2012 9:28pm

Has Kidney resigned yet?

irishbucsfan · 19-03-2012 9:28pm

JustinDee wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have no problem with players qualifying for other countries. I have a bit of a problem with countries actively seeking out young players from other countries in the hopes of making them qualify in the future.

Like Geoghegan, Henderson, Maggs or the Easterby bros?

No? Every single one of those players was Irish by descent.

I'm talking about, for example, the IRFU spotting a top class 18 year old Finnish tighthead and arranging for him to be brought over as a project player.

JRant · 19-03-2012 9:28pm

JustinDee wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, how many Pacific Islanders have played for the All-Blacks and Wallabies. You don't see many people laughing at them when there winning World Cups.
If a player qualifies for a country and is good enough to get picked good on them. How many of us would complain if Isa was togging out in green?

Don't forget that the best known Samoan, Tongan and Fijian intls tend to be New Zealanders.

Exactly, there's a much more fluid movement of players in the Sanzar region. With the size of our player pool I have no problem with anyone coming over here.

Fishooks12 · 19-03-2012 9:29pm

danthefan wrote: »

Has Kidney resigned yet?

No, and it's naive to think he will any time soon tbh

He'll be around for another championship unless we get totally humilated in the Autumn and Summer tests

JustinDee · 19-03-2012 9:36pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No? Every single one of those players was Irish by descent.

I'm talking about, for example, the IRFU spotting a top class 18 year old Finnish tighthead and arranging for him to be brought over as a project player.

Nothing wrong with that. That's how Hartley, Tuilagi and Corbi-whateverhisnameis were targeted and if Richardt Strauss is good enough, he'll follow suit in Ireland.

JRant · 19-03-2012 9:41pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

Has Kidney resigned yet?

No, and it's naive to think he will any time soon tbh

He'll be around for another championship unless we get totally humilated in the Autumn and Summer tests

Even then there's no guarantee he'd go tbh. Our current management setup really believe in what their doing. I don't but that that's immaterial as long as the blazers in the IRFU do. I'd say if the crowds start staying away from Landsdowne he'd be gone in a heartbeat.

Podge_irl · 19-03-2012 9:42pm

JRant wrote: »

Even then there's no guarantee he'd go tbh. Our current management setup really believe in what their doing. I don't but that that's immaterial as long as the blazers in the IRFU do. I'd say if the crowds start staying away from Landsdowne he'd be gone in a heartbeat.

Didn't take bad crowds for EOS to go.

Given how little is left of his tenure (summer next year?) I'd be amazed if he's not let finish out his contract regardless of results.

JRant · 19-03-2012 9:48pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

Even then there's no guarantee he'd go tbh. Our current management setup really believe in what their doing. I don't but that that's immaterial as long as the blazers in the IRFU do. I'd say if the crowds start staying away from Landsdowne he'd be gone in a heartbeat.

Didn't take bad crowds for EOS to go.

Given how little is left of his tenure (summer next year?) I'd be amazed if he's not let finish out his contract regardless of results.

No but the Press had it in for EOS at the time, this time around they're mostly giving DK an easy ride.
Maybe if Munster really want him he may leave at the end of this season. Barring that I'd have to agree with you about him being left finish out his contract. Could be a long 12 months if that happens.

rrpc · 19-03-2012 9:53pm

JRant wrote: »

No but the Press had it in for EOS at the time, this time around they're mostly giving DK an easy ride.
Maybe if Munster really want him he may leave at the end of this season. Barring that I'd have to agree with you about him being left finish out his contract. Could be a long 12 months if that happens.

And player confidence will go through the floor. It's going to be grit your teeth and peep through your fingers time because it's not going to be pretty and whoever takes over wil have an uphill task on their hands.

JRant · 19-03-2012 10:49pm

rrpc wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

No but the Press had it in for EOS at the time, this time around they're mostly giving DK an easy ride.
Maybe if Munster really want him he may leave at the end of this season. Barring that I'd have to agree with you about him being left finish out his contract. Could be a long 12 months if that happens.

And player confidence will go through the floor. It's going to be grit your teeth and peep through your fingers time because it's not going to be pretty and whoever takes over wil have an uphill task on their hands.

When you look at the fixture line up for the next 6N's is doesn't get any prettier either. Wales up first on 9th Feb followed by England.

skregs · 19-03-2012 10:57pm

JRant wrote: »

Even then there's no guarantee he'd go tbh. Our current management setup really believe in what their doing. I don't but that that's immaterial as long as the blazers in the IRFU do. I'd say if the crowds start staying away from Landsdowne he'd be gone in a heartbeat.

If there's one thing blazers hate, it's admitting they made a mistake. Kidney will be the "right man for the job" because firing him would make it look like they were wrong to sign him in the first place.

Podge_irl · 19-03-2012 10:59pm

skregs wrote: »

If there's one thing blazers hate, it's admitting they made a mistake. Kidney will be the "right man for the job" because firing him would make it look like they were wrong to sign him in the first place.

The mind still boggles that they gave him a contract extension before the World Cup after what happened last time.

JRant · 19-03-2012 11:12pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

skregs wrote: »

If there's one thing blazers hate, it's admitting they made a mistake. Kidney will be the "right man for the job" because firing him would make it look like they were wrong to sign him in the first place.

The mind still boggles that they gave him a contract extension before the World Cup after what happened last time.

Couldn't believe it at the time either. History has a habit of repeating itself. It's like a carbon copy of the end of the EOS reign.

Almaviva · 19-03-2012 11:21pm

skregs wrote: »

If there's one thing blazers hate, it's admitting they made a mistake. Kidney will be the "right man for the job" because firing him would make it look like they were wrong to sign him in the first place.

IRFU was decisive and ruthess when the fired both Gatland and EOS. Both good and courageous decisions at the time. Both took the team forward, but moving on was the right decision at the time in both cases despite the good contributions each had made. Kidney has taken them backwards and now has a long string of poorer performances than EOS or Gatty. Without the possibility to claim it is with a developmental or transitionary team or squad.

Why they are taking so long this time is hard to understand. Possibly given the two year contract to : 1) in the first year ensure good WC seeding, 2) the second team to build a forward looking team/squad with less concern on the results themselves. Still surprising he is being given such indulgence though - unless we are wrong...here's dreaming of an IRFU press conference for Wednesday....

Fishooks12 · 19-03-2012 11:23pm

Maybe no-one wants to fire Kindey because he's such a nice guy!

Teferi · 19-03-2012 11:31pm

Watching the highlights on Against The Head...Not pretty viewing.

durkadurka · 19-03-2012 11:37pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Maybe no-one wants to fire Kindey because he's such a nice guy!

In some ways he is and in some ways he isn't.

Almaviva · 19-03-2012 11:51pm

durkadurka wrote: »

In some ways he is and in some ways he isn't.

But if fired he would take the positives from it. A few decisions went against him, and sometimes thats the way it goes in coaching. He would study the videos. He knows there are aspects of his coaching he needs to work on. And he would look forward to his next coaching appointment.

JRant · 19-03-2012 11:52pm

Teferi wrote: »

Watching the highlights on Against The Head...Not pretty viewing.

Didn't see it tonight but sat through The Breakdown the other night. It was just a litany of mistakes from start to finish.
When you see the overhead shots at scrum time you realise there was nothing Court could have done either. The LH was never square at any time, the push was coming before the ball was in and Hartley was up to his old standing up tricks.

Monty Burnz · 19-03-2012 11:53pm

Almaviva wrote: »

But if fired he would take the positives from it. Sometime thats the way it goes in coaching. He would study the videos. He knows there are aspects of his coaching he needs to work on. And he would look forward to his next coaching appointment.

It would be like kissing his sister.

Ardillaun · 20-03-2012 1:31am

Hagz wrote: »

Why? How the hell were Heaslip, Ferris, O'Brien, O'Callaghan, Healy supposed to take any blame for what happened. It's even strange to lay blame on Best and Ryan. The only person to blame is Court, and you can't even blame him. We don't have a prop who can play both sides of the scrum. Nothing can be done about that until one is found.

We were losing scrums before Court came on. The dreadful conditions exacerbated the gap in scrummaging but it should serve as a massive wake up call. How would that pack with Court have matched up against the likes of Italy?

Whatever about all that, I think we can agree we are banjaxed if Mike Ross gets injured.

Podge_irl · 20-03-2012 1:32am

Ardillaun wrote: »

We were losing scrums before Court came on.

Ross got injured in the first scrum.

Lelantos · 20-03-2012 11:32am

Almaviva wrote: »

skregs wrote: »

If there's one thing blazers hate, it's admitting they made a mistake. Kidney will be the "right man for the job" because firing him would make it look like they were wrong to sign him in the first place.

IRFU was decisive and ruthess when the fired both Gatland and EOS. Both good and courageous decisions at the time. Both took the team forward, but moving on was the right decision at the time in both cases despite the good contributions each had made. Kidney has taken them backwards and now has a long string of poorer performances than EOS or Gatty. Without the possibility to claim it is with a developmental or transitionary team or squad.

Why they are taking so long this time is hard to understand. Possibly given the two year contract to : 1) in the first year ensure good WC seeding, 2) the second team to build a forward looking team/squad with less concern on the results themselves. Still surprising he is being given such indulgence though - unless we are wrong...here's dreaming of an IRFU press conference for Wednesday....

Just as an aside, which would we rather, be like Wales, have 3 grand slams since 05 but no club rugby success, or, Ireland with 4 HC success in that same era. For some reason Welsh rugby cannot translate international success to club success, and we're the opposite, why?

rrpc · 20-03-2012 11:54am

Lelantos wrote: »

Just as an aside, which would we rather, be like Wales, have 3 grand slams since 05 but no club rugby success, or, Ireland with 4 HC success in that same era. For some reason Welsh rugby cannot translate international success to club success, and we're the opposite, why?

Coaching.

Sorry, not trying to be flippant, but sometimes it's that simple. You don't have to do much elimination of other factors before you come to that conclusion either.

Annabella1 · 20-03-2012 12:01pm

rrpc wrote: »

Coaching.

Sorry, not trying to be flippant, but sometimes it's that simple. You don't have to do much elimination of other factors before you come to that conclusion either.

Yep....and we had that coach!

JustinDee · 20-03-2012 12:06pm

Annabella1 wrote: »

Yep....and we had that coach!

Is everyone actually forgetting that Wales dumped their own winning coach, no thanks to Alfie Thomas & Co, immediately after he led them to win a Slam, and while playing their best rugby in years (and also better than subsquent years)?
Not everything is quite so black and white.

20-03-2012 12:12pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Is everyone actually forgetting that Wales dumped their own winning coach, no thanks to Alfie Thomas & Co, immediately after he led them to win a Slam, and while playing their best rugby in years (and also better than subsquent years)?
Not everything is quite so black and white.

when we dumping ours?

leftleg · 20-03-2012 12:13pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Is everyone actually forgetting that Wales dumped their own winning coach, no thanks to Alfie Thomas & Co, immediately after he led them to win a Slam, and while playing their best rugby in years (and also better than subsquent years)?
Not everything is quite so black and white.

Yes and look at Wales now; They also stuck with Gatland after dreadful 2010 and 2011 6 Nations and they are motoring now. What is your point excatly??

JustinDee · 20-03-2012 12:22pm

leftleg wrote: »

Yes and look at Wales now; They also stuck with Gatland after dreadful 2010 and 2011 6 Nations and they are motoring now. What is your point excatly??

My point?
"Not everything is black and white" is my point, just as I posted ie. not every squad or situation can be a direct comparison of each other. I'll bet you that Stuart Lancaster gets the chop, for example, and replaced by someone who thinks they can use that backline. Agree with that?
Dingo Deans stays on with the Aussies. Good thing or bad?

Most of what we'll say to each other has all been said before (by all sides of this debate) so I'm not going to waste more hours on the previous.
Take it handy.

leftleg · 20-03-2012 12:38pm

JustinDee wrote: »

My point?
"Not everything is black and white" is my point, just as I posted ie. not every squad or situation can be a direct comparison of each other. I'll bet you that Stuart Lancaster gets the chop, for example, and replaced by someone who thinks they can use that backline. Agree with that?
Dingo Deans stays on with the Aussies. Good thing or bad?

Most of what we'll say to each other has all been said before (by all sides of this debate) so I'm not going to waste more hours on the previous.
Take it handy.

ok dokey, its grey so; take it handy

Lelantos · 20-03-2012 12:47pm

Annabella1 wrote: »

rrpc wrote: »

Coaching.

Sorry, not trying to be flippant, but sometimes it's that simple. You don't have to do much elimination of other factors before you come to that conclusion either.

Yep....and we had that coach!

Talking to a lot of Welsh fans, their primary concern is the national team, they are loyal to their regions, but would gladly sacrifice club success for international glory. I'm not sure if you asked a Leinster or Munster fan the question you'd get that same response

leftleg · 20-03-2012 12:50pm

Lelantos wrote: »

Talking to a lot of Welsh fans, their primary concern is the national team, they are loyal to their regions, but would gladly sacrifice club success for international glory. I'm not sure if you asked a Leinster or Munster fan the question you'd get that same response

Thats rubbish; were all green true and true; look at these forums and the passion and anger posters have here for the shambles that was saturday evening; it was dire.

The unfortunate truth is that there’s no other way of looking at this Six Nations than as a waste. What was achieved? A good finish in the table? No. A good series of wins? No. A big victory over a team who had our number? No. Giving starts to a new generation of players? No.

I still love Ireland though and will scream for them through thick and thin.

Lelantos · 20-03-2012 12:57pm

leftleg wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Talking to a lot of Welsh fans, their primary concern is the national team, they are loyal to their regions, but would gladly sacrifice club success for international glory. I'm not sure if you asked a Leinster or Munster fan the question you'd get that same response

Thats rubbish; were all green true and true; look at these forums and the passion and anger posters have here for the shambles that was saturday evening; it was dire.

The unfortunate truth is that there’s no other way of looking at this Six Nations than as a waste. What was achieved? A good finish in the table? No. A good series of wins? No. A big victory over a team who had our number? No. Giving starts to a new generation of players? No.

I still love Ireland though and will scream for them through thick and thin.

Sorry, but its not rubbish, I'm asking would Irish supporters rather have the Welsh model, international success over club success? I'm quite sure that many Munster & Leinster fans would prefer continued HC success to 6n championships

Junior · 20-03-2012 12:59pm

Why does it have to be an either or scenario, can we not try and have Club/Provincial success and International success ?

leftleg · 20-03-2012 1:03pm

Why cant we have both?? HCup success should ideally lead to 6N successes; should it not? Oh yeah you need a good international coach for that, who is willing to give young talented players game time;

This is what we have from the following http://dementedmole.com/2012/03/19/match-reaction-1-sins-of-omission/

The same player has been selected every game at Nos. 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 … Kidney has only started 19 players in five games. McFadden started at No13 for one game [because there was an illness in Keith Earls’ family, Earls having been initially named in the starting VX]; Reddan started at scrum-half for the two games after Conor Murray injured his knee; Peter O’Mahony started @ No7 for the game against Scotland when Sean O’Brien was in hospital with colitis; and Donnacha Ryan started @ No5 for two games when Paul O’Connell was ruled out for six weeks with a knee injury.

There’s every possibility, given the rest of the selections, that if none of these illnesses or injuries had occurred, the same XV would have taken the field in all four games … despite four of them being played in 23 days.

So in summary; yes it is rubbish

rrpc · 20-03-2012 1:06pm

JustinDee wrote: »

My point?
"Not everything is black and white" is my point, just as I posted ie. not every squad or situation can be a direct comparison of each other. I'll bet you that Stuart Lancaster gets the chop, for example, and replaced by someone who thinks they can use that backline. Agree with that?
Dingo Deans stays on with the Aussies. Good thing or bad?

Most of what we'll say to each other has all been said before (by all sides of this debate) so I'm not going to waste more hours on the previous.
Take it handy.

It's never black and white, but it generally becomes stark when the grey areas are neglected.

A good read here which may crystallise what most of us on here believe: http://whiffofcordite.blogspot.com/2012/03/some-good-mostly-bad-time-for-new-broom.html

leftleg · 20-03-2012 1:09pm

rrpc wrote: »

http://whiffofcordite.blogspot.com/2012/03/some-good-mostly-bad-time-for-new-broom.html

Exactly that Declan Kidney should just go; or if he stays start blooding props, centres and second rows pronto.

Lelantos · 20-03-2012 1:42pm

leftleg wrote: »

Why cant we have both?? HCup success should ideally lead to 6N successes; should it not? Oh yeah you need a good international coach for that, who is willing to give young talented players game time;

This is what we have from the following http://dementedmole.com/2012/03/19/match-reaction-1-sins-of-omission/

The same player has been selected every game at Nos. 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 … Kidney has only started 19 players in five games. McFadden started at No13 for one game [because there was an illness in Keith Earls’ family, Earls having been initially named in the starting VX]; Reddan started at scrum-half for the two games after Conor Murray injured his knee; Peter O’Mahony started @ No7 for the game against Scotland when Sean O’Brien was in hospital with colitis; and Donnacha Ryan started @ No5 for two games when Paul O’Connell was ruled out for six weeks with a knee injury.

There’s every possibility, given the rest of the selections, that if none of these illnesses or injuries had occurred, the same XV would have taken the field in all four games … despite four of them being played in 23 days.

So in summary; yes it is rubbish

If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

CIARAN_BOYLE · 20-03-2012 1:53pm

Lelantos wrote: »

If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

Munster have as many NIQ props as the four Welsh regions have NWQ props (three). Not saying that prop depth would turn things around completly but just bringing it to your attention

Its hard to succeed in the HEC without 4 quality props. Few of the Welsh teams have that due to the absence of NWQ props.

Brian · 20-03-2012 1:53pm

Latest Against the Head is up http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/highlights.html?3232661,3232661,flash,null

.ak · 20-03-2012 1:54pm

Lelantos wrote: »

If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

The same reason we can't convert it to the 6N... Bad coaching/management/union setup.

leftleg · 20-03-2012 1:54pm

Lelantos wrote: »

If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

Ok so we have players playing for the Irish team; 8 of which play for Leinster who are HCup champs and Munster and Ulster are in the QFs. Munster are Rabo champs; Leimster win the HCup in 09 as well; Munster won it 08 and 06. So the national team has a group of players that can win and are used to winning.

When they are brought together they should win right; they dont; we have a coach who has coached this team to steadily worse results since he took over at the end of 08. He had a high in 09 and then nothing since except decrepit results with the odd decent game or performance thrown in.

I cant see how Kidney shouldn't take some blame for the teams performances.

Please tell me the difference between the team he inherited in 08 to the team he has now??

molloyjh · 20-03-2012 2:50pm

JRant wrote: »

Didn't see it tonight but sat through The Breakdown the other night. It was just a litany of mistakes from start to finish.
When you see the overhead shots at scrum time you realise there was nothing Court could have done either. The LH was never square at any time, the push was coming before the ball was in and Hartley was up to his old standing up tricks.

What was the overall opinion from the lads on the Breakdown? Missed it myself and would love to know their take on the whole thing...

Lelantos wrote: »

Sorry, but its not rubbish, I'm asking would Irish supporters rather have the Welsh model, international success over club success? I'm quite sure that many Munster & Leinster fans would prefer continued HC success to 6n championships

I'd rather not have to choose personally. But if I absolutely had to I'd pick Leinster for one very simple reason. If I'm going to watch one of my teams suffer I'd rather see less of it. And there are a lot less Ireland games than Leinster ones.

Obviously though I want both to succeed.

Lelantos wrote: »

If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

I think looking at this the other way around, i.e. national level down to club level, is all a bit disingenuous. All you need is a pool of 25-30 quality players to make up a good national squad. If a handful of those are abroad and the others are spread across the 5 regions that's an average of 4-5 quality players per region. If that's all Wales had (for arguments sake) then the regions couldn't succeed.

However if the regions had 10-12 quality NIQs each then those 50-60 players would be battling it out at national level.

In other words just because a national side has enough quality players to create a quality team, doesn't mean their clubs/provinces/regions do. If the clubs had enough then the national side would be laughing. It's apples and oranges really.

Add to that the problems Wales have at regional level and the financial issues that come from that and they just can't afford the same quality coaching staff that our provinces can.

Lelantos · 20-03-2012 3:22pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

Munster have as many NIQ props as the four Welsh regions have NWQ props (three). Not saying that prop depth would turn things around completly but just bringing it to your attention

Its hard to succeed in the HEC without 4 quality props. Few of the Welsh teams have that due to the absence of NWQ props.

Does that then mean that the Welsh unions desire is for Welsh only props etc, regardless of the effect it has on the regions. Putting the international teams need first, and the regions nowhere, as opposed to second?

Ardillaun · 20-03-2012 3:27pm

Sindri wrote: »

It was obviously illegal scrummaging lads FFS. No one to blame. Court had no answer and Ross was injured by that same illegal scrummaging. :mad:

We need to stop this ****e about how we can't scrummage and how we were brutal in the scrum. We were brutal but it was for aforementioned reasons.

We lost the match by poor ball retention and being overturned by illegal scrummaging. The 'tactical' substitutes didn't help either.

If it was so grossly illegal, why did the ref allow it time after time and why hasn't Kidney complained about it publicly? Refs are given a fair bit of discretion on these matters, and their intrepretation is effectively the law for the match. What was stopping Ireland scrummaging in the same way?

rrpc · 20-03-2012 5:15pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

If it was so grossly illegal, why did the ref allow it time after time and why hasn't Kidney complained about it publicly? Refs are given a fair bit of discretion on these matters, and their intrepretation is effectively the law for the match. What was stopping Ireland scrummaging in the same way?

Kind of pointless at this stage and will smack of sour grapes. Nigel Owens is notoriously poor at scrum time, so it's no surprise he missed stuff. He's not alone, teams regularly put in crooked and get away with it, start pushing before the ball is in (as England did on Saturday time after time) and get away with it, so more subtle cheating like Hartley loosening his bind to push our front row up whilst still allowing his two props to scrummage would be well outside the ref's radar.

England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

Comments