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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012
Comments
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Maurice with a goal from penalty. 7 in it to Tipp0
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0-31 to 2-15. Not good enough, 31 points conceded. serious problems I dont care about injuries or any excuses serious questions should be asked after this0
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deisebhoy17 wrote: »0-31 to 2-15. Not good enough, 31 points conceded. serious problems I dont care about injuries or any excuses serious questions should be asked after this
Just watching the deferred coverage on TG4, after listening to the game on wlr earlier. 10 point defeat doesn't look too good, especially with Tipp scoring for fun, so in the vein of deisebhoy's post above, do serious questions need to be asked, and if so, what serious questions..0 -
Another heavy defeat today, we are way out of our depth it will be 1B hurling for us next year where we will struggle against teams that are making progress cant really blame management as we just don't have the player's we taught we had. The golden generation is long gone, a lot of work lies ahead and maybe we might find some decent player's in the future right now it look's like good enough for Waterford is not good enough to compete with the big boy's. Hopefully we can make some gain's at under 21 or minor, that's the way to go now because right now the senior setup will struggle for some time to come I wish Michael Ryan and his back room team all the best, coming into the Waterford setup when we are on a downward spiral is very hard. Beating Clare in our first game in the championship would be brilliant but another heavy defeat in a Munster Final would be a disaster. I know we were short some of our big player's today but so were Tipp so there's no point making excuses the paper's wouldn't be kind to us tomorrow so as I have already said let's hope younger player's can step up and maybe we will be able to compete at the level we got used to these past fourteen season's. Galway up next then Dublin I cant see a win there but I live in hope that has evaporated a little bit more today. The great Mick O Dywer of Kerry alway's said the League is for playing and Championship is for winning but heavy defeat's are draining any confidence we once had. The Waterford crowd were almost invisible today who will travel to Salthill next week of course lack of money is playing a big part there. Come on lad's give us a lift. Maurice was great today but our half forward line were cleaned out by a great half back line of Tipperary.0
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Re: league, I think today's defeat pretty much guarantees a relegation final with Dublin to see who gets the drop, or am I wrong in thinking that whatever we get from the next two games, that we cannot avoid a relegation final with Dublin. If that is the case, I feel we may be better off to be cute, and use the remaining two league games against Galway and Dublin to experiment, staking everything on beating Dublin in the relegation playoff decider.
Dublin seem to be in a better place, performance-wise, than us, but then again by the time it comes to a relegation decider, we should have a full strength squad available to us again.
In any case, just thinking out loud..0 -
mccarthy37 wrote: »we just don't have the player's we taught we had
Pretty much this. I don't think questions need to be asked, we just don't have the quality or depth that KK and Tipp have at their disposal. It's not all doom and gloom though which is easy to forget on the back of 3 fairly heavy defeats. There is some good young players in the team, but they're still young and people need to be patient.
Some good players still to come back too, will be a different looking side come championship but I'd imagine the results against Tipp/KK will remain the same and I'd also hazard a guess that some of the games we have been edging for the last few years against the likes of Limerick/Clare/Galway we may not keep edging!0 -
lovelypoint wrote: »Re: league, I think today's defeat pretty much guarantees a relegation final with Dublin to see who gets the drop, or am I wrong in thinking that whatever we get from the next two games, that we cannot avoid a relegation final with Dublin. If that is the case, I feel we may be better off to be cute, and use the remaining two league games against Galway and Dublin to experiment, staking everything on beating Dublin in the relegation playoff decider.
Dublin seem to be in a better place, performance-wise, than us, but then again by the time it comes to a relegation decider, we should have a full strength squad available to us again.
In any case, just thinking out loud..
They're my thoughts also, it looks like it'll be Dublin and ourselves in the relegation play off whatever happens so it mightn't be any harm just to give younger lads a run in the next two games and go all out for the relegation play off. Agree though that Dublin look to be even well ahead of us at the moment so it won't be easy.0 -
so is it a case for throw in the towel and give in to 4 defeats ,also give younger lads a run for what if there brought into a panel you should not have to give anyone a run ,you should know what there all about ,play your best 15 all the time ,kk won the walsh cup this year with 10 of last years all ireland winning team and brought on 3 that featured in the same match,they dont give fellas a run in kk you earn the right to wear the jerseyThey're my thoughts also, it looks like it'll be Dublin and ourselves in the relegation play off whatever happens so it mightn't be any harm just to give younger lads a run in the next two games and go all out for the relegation play off. Agree though that Dublin look to be even well ahead of us at the moment so it won't be easy.0 -
Poor game today, Tipp were nothing special but as has been the case with them in the last few years against us in the league they fall into a lull. The difference today was that there wasn't much of a fight from us. We were way off the pace at the start as Tipp raced into a 0-7 to 0-1 lead after only 10 minutes. Switches were made, with Brick moving to centre back and Moran switching to midfield (we lined out as per the programme). Things improved a bit then with Brick dominating for a while, but all in all the Tipp forwards found space way to easily. Noel McGrath was sublime throughout, finishing with 7 points and creating a countless amount!
After the goal by Molumphy (which was a scrappy finish, but typical of his workman like performance) we showed some fight up to half time. We had been cleaned out from puckouts and from the breaks but Moran came into it and caught a few balls. We got very little change out of the forward line all day and while Maurice Shanahan was the worst of them in the first 20 minutes, he was the best of them by the end of the day, finishing with 3 points from play and a goal from a penalty in the second half.
The forwards killed us in the second half. Every ball that went down came straight back up pretty much, which was in total contrast to Tipp who created scores very easily. The penalty was maybe a bit soft, though I thought Shane Walsh had a decent claim for a penalty before that, as well as Maurice Shanahan being denied one which was as clear as day (Shanahan syndrome I think came into play, to tall for his own good in ways) later on. Shane Walsh nearly scored a goal when he was spotted crossfield one on one by Paul O'Brien, who over hit the ball, but Walsh did brilliantly to beat his man but didn't have the finish to match.
It was very disheartening to see Eoin McGrath introduced as the first sub, I have to say, and when Shane Walsh was taken off for Tommy Ryan, with Jake Dillon having replaced Paul o'Brien, we were very light in the forwards.
The tactic seemed to be to deny Tipp goals at all costs, which we did but at what cost? The only time they did break through, O'Keeffe pulled off an unbelievable save.
I thought the puckouts were too high against a Tipp backline and Brendan Maher that just love high balls. Shane Walsh did alright considering he was only just back, but I can understand why he was taken off he was probably tired. Molumphy was outstanding, in terms of workrate he was at a different level to most and hurled well. Outside of that nobody stood out, and we saw more evidence of our failure to deal with Noel McGrath as he pulled all the strings. The communication in the backline wasn't good enough either, as too many times a man drifted into space and the nearest defender wasn't warned.
Bad performance, they need to start showing something or we will be relegated.0 -
lovelypoint wrote: »Re: league, I think today's defeat pretty much guarantees a relegation final with Dublin to see who gets the drop, or am I wrong in thinking that whatever we get from the next two games, that we cannot avoid a relegation final with Dublin. If that is the case, I feel we may be better off to be cute, and use the remaining two league games against Galway and Dublin to experiment, staking everything on beating Dublin in the relegation playoff decider.
Dublin seem to be in a better place, performance-wise, than us, but then again by the time it comes to a relegation decider, we should have a full strength squad available to us again.
In any case, just thinking out loud..
Dublin scored 6 14 against Kilkenny today I dont feel very confident0 -
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lovelypoint wrote: »I feel we may be better off to be cute, and use the remaining two league games against Galway and Dublin to experiment.
Is that not what weve been doing up to date? As far as I can see anyway. The worrying aspect for me today as per the previous 2 games is the apparent lack of hunger that was there under dare I say it... Davy Fitz. We looked like we were resigned to losing the game before we ever even got off the bus. There didnt seem to be any real belief or even desire to really go for it. We were very loose and seemed to lack any kind of ideas or imagination. Leadership was few and far between, apart from Brick. Moran and Maurice had their moments. I thought that as long as were being competitive Div 1A hurling will benefit these young players greatly, but performances as flat as that dont really teach you anything.
On the positive side the following players still have to come back into the reckoning; Mullane, Kelly, Connors, Foley, Paudie Mahony, Kearney, Seamus Pender, wayne hutchinson, o'halloran. Ill continue to trust this management team as much as i can that we'll be a different side come championship but my gut feeling isnt great0 -
hurler on de ditch wrote: »so is it a case for throw in the towel and give in to 4 defeats ,also give younger lads a run for what if there brought into a panel you should not have to give anyone a run ,you should know what there all about ,play your best 15 all the time ,kk won the walsh cup this year with 10 of last years all ireland winning team and brought on 3 that featured in the same match,they dont give fellas a run in kk you earn the right to wear the jersey
to hell would people ever give over on the KK examples!!! Ive had it up to here with it 'KK this' and 'you wouldnt see KK doing that'. it serves no purpose other than to shed a negative light on things0 -
I'm sure they will be very disappointed they didn't score 7 goals today. I heard one smart comment only 11 win against Waterford.In some people's eye's we really have gone back it seem'sMountainlad wrote: »Poor game today, Tipp were nothing special but as has been the case with them in the last few years against us in the league they fall into a lull. The difference today was that there wasn't much of a fight from us. We were way off the pace at the start as Tipp raced into a 0-7 to 0-1 lead after only 10 minutes. Switches were made, with Brick moving to centre back and Moran switching to midfield (we lined out as per the programme). Things improved a bit then with Brick dominating for a while, but all in all the Tipp forwards found space way to easily. Noel McGrath was sublime throughout, finishing with 7 points and creating a countless amount!
After the goal by Molumphy (which was a scrappy finish, but typical of his workman like performance) we showed some fight up to half time. We had been cleaned out from puckouts and from the breaks but Moran came into it and caught a few balls. We got very little change out of the forward line all day and while Maurice Shanahan was the worst of them in the first 20 minutes, he was the best of them by the end of the day, finishing with 3 points from play and a goal from a penalty in the second half.
The forwards killed us in the second half. Every ball that went down came straight back up pretty much, which was in total contrast to Tipp who created scores very easily. The penalty was maybe a bit soft, though I thought Shane Walsh had a decent claim for a penalty before that, as well as Maurice Shanahan being denied one which was as clear as day (Shanahan syndrome I think came into play, to tall for his own good in ways) later on. Shane Walsh nearly scored a goal when he was spotted crossfield one on one by Paul O'Brien, who over hit the ball, but Walsh did brilliantly to beat his man but didn't have the finish to match.
It was very disheartening to see Eoin McGrath introduced as the first sub, I have to say, and when Shane Walsh was taken off for Tommy Ryan, with Jake Dillon having replaced Paul o'Brien, we were very light in the forwards.
The tactic seemed to be to deny Tipp goals at all costs, which we did but at what cost? The only time they did break through, O'Keeffe pulled off an unbelievable save.
I thought the puckouts were too high against a Tipp backline and Brendan Maher that just love high balls. Shane Walsh did alright considering he was only just back, but I can understand why he was taken off he was probably tired. Molumphy was outstanding, in terms of workrate he was at a different level to most and hurled well. Outside of that nobody stood out, and we saw more evidence of our failure to deal with Noel McGrath as he pulled all the strings. The communication in the backline wasn't good enough either, as too many times a man drifted into space and the nearest defender wasn't warned.
Bad performance, they need to start showing something or we will be relegated.0 -
Interesting game, and result aside, found the game quite akin to open league games in past years with a moderate tempo, and one with accuracy and a little sharpness deciding the winner. That said, the importance of any league game this year is much higher than in years past, and the result really leaves us in a sticky spot regarding risk of relegation.
In all, thought it was a pretty open game, with league-style marking, and both sides letting each other play. I thought there were a few positives, despite the result, namely the performance of Stephen O'Keefe, Gavin O'Brien, Martin O'Neill, and Maurice Shanahan (around CF also). Brick has been returned home to CB, and Moran pushed up to midfield, solidifying us a lot from midfield back. Seemed to be a lot more fluidity in our play, especially with handpassing, and comfort under high ball. Of course, I would preface all those positives, by noting Tipp looked a little bit like a team playing a little in themselves, happy to let the accuracy of their forwards do the main work for them, and not have to question themselves.
Negatives are obviously the result, dooming us to a relegation playoff with Dublin no matter how we do in our next two games. 31 points too is a bit embarrassing, and Tipp never seemed out of their comfort zone, taking scores for fun. All a bit tippy-tappy really, and as a fan, would prefer to think if we had a plan to deal with Tipp, it was that we chose not to use it in the league, as opposed to being simply taken apart by them. Perhaps a little optimistic on my part, but we all need a little something to grasp onto.
So, where from here, really? I disagree we don't have the players, as we do have some stronger players due to return (Mullane, Connors, Kearney, possibly Kelly), but it is clear our less experienced players with promise need more time. For me, it is heartbreaking to see proven limited championship performers get gametime ahead of those breaking onto the panel, and that is my biggest problem with current management. Sure, many of these players may not be currently at the standard required, but they never will be, without gametime and a little faith by management.
In previous games, it was obvious we did not have a gameplan, from back to front, but with a decent keeper, Brick back to CB, and Moran in a more effective position, it was clear we had a lot more cohesion today than we displayed against Cork & Kilkenny. In all, we seem to be back to a tenable position with which we can build on, even if a lot more work now needs to be put in for a do-or-die relegation decider, and our championship opener against Clare.
The main thing we need now, in my opinion, is an affective gameplan to address our lack of possession and quality ball from midfield up. Brick was not the answer at CF, and we may not have a classic CF in our midst, so we need an effective plan to gain possession at half-forward, and also deliver quality ball into our inside forwards.
In any case, just some thoughts based on today..
EDIT: neglected to mention Molumphy above, thought he showed up very well today, using his work rate and intelligence to good effect.0 -
Ourselves and Dublin bottom of the table, both 4 points behind Cork, Tipp and Galway. Even if we win our last 2 games, we'd still have to make up a 27 point deficit for scoring difference and also hope that one of Tipp, Galway or Cork fail to get anything out of their last 2 games. It's going to be a relegation play-off.0
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deisebhoy17 wrote: »to hell would people ever give over on the KK examples!!! Ive had it up to here with it 'KK this' and 'you wouldnt see KK doing that'. it serves no purpose other than to shed a negative light on things[/QUOTE its what every county should be aiming for and you have to give comparisons0
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its likely that the Dublin game will decide relegation. Position is if we both finish in the bottom two home venue will go to the winner of the head to head. So realistically we need to beat them twice as home advantage will be huge.
I'm beginning to wish Davy was back. Dont see present management improving us one bit, the opposite in fact. Wasnt in Thurles but suspect the team are not playing for the management. Whatever Davys limitations were and there were limitations we never got three hidings in a row. I understood the need for a change of manager this year, but thought we should only do it if we got someone better, and I never felt the gamble on an unproven, untested mgt team was worth it. Cheap is always dear in the long run. What will we save by appointing a manager on his address;I fear it will come back to haunt us. If we're relgated for examples it has repussessions for sponsorship, gates etc. If michael Ryan was not good enough last year why was he considered good enough this year.0 -
parish girl wrote: »its likely that the Dublin game will decide relegation. Position is if we both finish in the bottom two home venue will go to the winner of the head to head. So realistically we need to beat them twice as home advantage will be huge.
I'm beginning to wish Davy was back. Dont see present management improving us one bit, the opposite in fact. Wasnt in Thurles but suspect the team are not playing for the management. Whatever Davys limitations were and there were limitations we never got three hidings in a row. I understood the need for a change of manager this year, but thought we should only do it if we got someone better, and I never felt the gamble on an unproven, untested mgt team was worth it. Cheap is always dear in the long run. What will we save by appointing a manager on his address;I fear it will come back to haunt us. If we're relgated for examples it has repussessions for sponsorship, gates etc. If michael Ryan was not good enough last year why was he considered good enough this year.
Because Davy didn't want to stay.0 -
as far as I know we never asked him. But that's immaterial now.
We have what we have but has there been anything positive about the new set up. In my oponion it has been one bad story after another. again I ask has there been one thing that we have improved, just a litany of bad judgements.
I know they have to try new things but in my oponion not one of the changes have been for the better.0 -
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parish girl wrote: »its likely that the Dublin game will decide relegation. Position is if we both finish in the bottom two home venue will go to the winner of the head to head. So realistically we need to beat them twice as home advantage will be huge.
I'm beginning to wish Davy was back. Dont see present management improving us one bit, the opposite in fact. Wasnt in Thurles but suspect the team are not playing for the management. Whatever Davys limitations were and there were limitations we never got three hidings in a row. I understood the need for a change of manager this year, but thought we should only do it if we got someone better, and I never felt the gamble on an unproven, untested mgt team was worth it. Cheap is always dear in the long run. What will we save by appointing a manager on his address;I fear it will come back to haunt us. If we're relgated for examples it has repussessions for sponsorship, gates etc. If michael Ryan was not good enough last year why was he considered good enough this year.
I agree with you 100%. Thats just the way it is now for better or worse theres nothing we can do just get behind them and hope for the best.
Theres a lot of talk about relegation playoffs here im not really concerned about that at all. we kinda knew that after the KK game really anyway, theres bigger issues than relegation from 1A to 1B as far as im concerned0 -
Most posters here agree we will probably drop down to division 1B next year. I watched the hurling club final yesterday and I taught it was a really great game. Both of these teams are from counties that are playing in IB all I fear is that interest and support will fall away. Did anyone see any division 1B games broadcast on television yet, so much for all the talk about promoting games in weaker counties. Colaiste na nDeise won the Harty cup this year and their prize for winning was a quarter final place against Kilkenny CBS hellbent to get to the All Ireland after their narrow defeat to St Keirans. Nenagh CBS were the losers but they went straight through to a semi final which they won. I know there was a withdraw'll in their case but you have to wonder who made these decisions and from what county were they from. I personally taught Colaiste were shafted. At the end of last season we were wondering were we the third or fourth best team in the land I wonder where do we stand now. If we win our Munster semi final it wont make a bit of difference and nobody will be giving us a chance in the final ,will that be such a bad thing after all Limerick should have bet us last year. It would be a great boost if a division 1B team wins the Munster final this year which doesn't look that impossible.0
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parish girl wrote: »as far as I know we never asked him. But that's immaterial now.
We have what we have but has there been anything positive about the new set up. In my oponion it has been one bad story after another. again I ask has there been one thing that we have improved, just a litany of bad judgements.
I know they have to try new things but in my oponion not one of the changes have been for the better.
Martin O'Neill would be a positive to me. Gavin O'Brien getting game time too. Brian O'Halloran was given the chance but injuries are too much for him at present. The experiment with Brick was worth a try, no matter what anyone says, and early indicators suggested it might work so it was only right that it was persisted with for a while. Philip Mahony is getting game time, I know people would prefer to see him in the half back line but sure if he was in the halfback line and Shane Fives was in at corner back and things were still as bad people would be seeing 'sure Fives isn't a corner back'. Someone criticized the decision to play Paudie Prender corner back against UCC, yet after the Cork game the question was asked could he play there.
I think they have tried some things and that is immensely important that you do try new things. They have made errors in the faith shown in some players who don't look to be up to it with the last few years, but it would be unfair to say that nothing we've tried has worked and to be so demoralized at this stage of the year with things is a bit much. Certainly, we need to improve and quickly, but when was the league ever taken so seriously under Justin? We had a poor league campaign in 2009, and 2010 wasn't exceptional either, we were fortunate that we had 8 teams in the league. The bottom line is with us as understrength as we have been competing in such an unforgiving league that we were always looking at a bottom two finish. We aren't relegated yet though, far from it and if we can improve in the next few games in addition to a few more lads coming back, we can give it a good lash against most likely Dublin in the relegation playoff.
Look at Dublin like, they won the league last year yet they are also facing relegation this year. We have to be more patient.
As I've said today was poor all the same, and we need to improve, some players need to pull the finger out. Management have accepted post match that it's not good enough and that responsibility lies with them, so let's see how they react.0 -
I was up in Kilkenny today and went along to the KK v Dublin game. Dublin are a very very good outfit again this year and will justifyably feel very unlucky to be facing a relegation playoff.
Would fear for us against them on current form.0 -
I was up in Kilkenny today and went along to the KK v Dublin game. Dublin are a very very good outfit again this year and will justifyably feel very unlucky to be facing a relegation playoff.
Would fear for us against them on current form.
Well thankfully luck or deserve will have nothing to say about who goes down this year. Way I see it, as well as Clare in June, we now have another championship-like game with a relegation play-off against Dublin. Anything less than 100% intensity, a big increase in the quality of our performance, and a lot more work between now and then, will see us either out of 1A or Munster, or both.
I'm not sure if home advantage for the relegation play-off goes to the team who finishes second from bottom, as mentioned, but I know we will be doing exceptionally well to beat the Dubs twice without upsetting our championship preparations. You never know though, this could be the sort of thing that will galvanise the squad and management.
All talk of jettisoning the manager at this point is crazy, in my opinion, both for the fact it is only March, and also the fact that with the transitional phase we find ourself in, even an excellent caretaker manager could not do anything to rescue our season.
A crisis within the camp like this may prove to be a very good thing, if we can avoid letting it destroy us, or force us into implosion.0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »I agree with you 100%. Thats just the way it is now for better or worse theres nothing we can do just get behind them and hope for the best.
Theres a lot of talk about relegation playoffs here im not really concerned about that at all. we kinda knew that after the KK game really anyway, theres bigger issues than relegation from 1A to 1B as far as im concerned
Yes, the main thing is performance, the thing that many people outside the county telling us to calm down, and that it is only March, don't realise. In Cork we were dismal, against KK better in the first half until KK put on the afterburners. Things looked a little better against Tipp, in my opinion, or at least looked to have some sort of cohesion, even if the intensity or tightness of the marking was not near enough to what was needed. Still though, some green shoots today, but a long, long way to go, and some big games and big performances needed. Here's hoping its all up from here!
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deisebhoy17 wrote: »Is that not what weve been doing up to date?
To an extent, alright. Brick at CF, Moran at CB, recalls for Iggy & Paul O'Brien. Game time for Martin O'Neill, and a half chance for Gavin O'Brien which was grasped with both hands. Perseverance with Nagle & Declan Prendergast. Experiments with Philip Mahony & Stephen Daniels at corner back, albeit forced ones.
So a lot of experiments, I guess, some that worked, some that didn't, and some that caused us all to continually question the judgement of management.
Right now, we find ourselves without a settled keeper, although if O'Keefe is getting game time, it is his to relinquish I feel. Also, despite having a number of potentially very good wingbacks, no time has been given to developing any of them. So still room for experimentation, creating competition for places, and finding improvements within the squad, so hopefully we will use the opportunity now that we seem to have it..0 -
lovelypoint wrote: »deisebhoy17 wrote: »Is that not what weve been doing up to date?
To an extent, alright. Brick at CF, Moran at CB, recalls for Iggy & Paul O'Brien. Game time for Martin O'Neill, and a half chance for Gavin O'Brien which was grasped with both hands. Perseverance with Nagle & Declan Prendergast. Experiments with Philip Mahony & Stephen Daniels at corner back, albeit forced ones.
So a lot of experiments, I guess, some that worked, some that didn't, and some that caused us all to continually question the judgement of management.
Right now, we find ourselves without a settled keeper, although if O'Keefe is getting game time, it is his to relinquish I feel. Also, despite having a number of potentially very good wingbacks, no time has been given to developing any of them. So still room for experimentation, creating competition for places, and finding improvements within the squad, so hopefully we will use the opportunity now that we seem to have it..
The way the league is now run I don't think it's the end of the world if we get relegated in fact I'd prefer to see us building our team in 1b picking up valuable experience an getting the benefit of trying out young players with a lot less pressure on them in games where their confidence can only grow in preparation for the championship we would find it easier to develop a style of hurling that suits us rather than trying to match a style of the big teams that clearly don't suit us. We are in transition period at the moment so it will take time, were competing well underage last 5 yrs so it'l soon filter thru to senior level.
I think Brick experiment was worth a shot if ya don't try new things ya never know what ya have, but I'd like to see Moran centre forward he's too lose in man marking for an intercounty CB.I think he has a good hand an great going forward carrying the ball an he can take a score as good as any0 -
The blue blaa wrote: »The way the league is now run I don't think it's the end of the world if we get relegated in fact I'd prefer to see us building our team in 1b picking up valuable experience an getting the benefit of trying out young players with a lot less pressure on them in games where their confidence can only grow in preparation for the championship we would find it easier to develop a style of hurling that suits us rather than trying to match a style of the big teams that clearly don't suit us. We are in transition period at the moment so it will take time, were competing well underage last 5 yrs so it'l soon filter thru to senior level.
I think Brick experiment was worth a shot if ya don't try new things ya never know what ya have, but I'd like to see Moran centre forward he's too lose in man marking for an intercounty CB.I think he has a good hand an great going forward carrying the ball an he can take a score as good as any
+1 to this, although it would be important not to be down in div1B for too long, 2 years max0 -
I have to admire the optimism of many posters here. The amount of spin which people are trying to put on possible relegation, and the positives which might arise out of a crisis is amazing.
I was one of a group of posters who were criticised for rushing to criticise the defeat by Clare in the Waterford Crystal. While I wouldn't normally have worried too much about the competition, I was deeply concerned by what I saw on the day, and nothing much has improved to me in the meantime.
There were also many who disagreed with the notion that we might be relegated in the aftermath of the Cork hammering. Again nothing has improved, hard to see light at the end of the tunnel.
Are we really missing that many players? Mullane and Conners are the only two who should really make a noticeable improvement, and even that wouldn't get us 10 points closer to Cork, Kilkenny or Tipp.
Our lack of passion, lack of quality, lack of physicality and most of all lack of gameplan all point towards a worrying 2012 and beyond.
Also hard luck to the footballers today who came up short against a strong Fermanagh outfit. If they win against Limerick next week their promotion hopes remain alive, a loss would leave them in Div 4 for another year I would imagine.0 -
+1 to this, although it would be important not to be down in div1B for too long, 2 years max
As per my previous post, I cant see why were so caught up on this issue of relegation I think there are bigger things to worry about. Relegation to 1B your still playing competitive games anyway its not ideal be but its not like ur down in division 2 against teams like kerry and westmeath either. On the larger scheme of things I don think its overly crucial. Shur the way HQ are always messing around with the league setup dont be surprised to see the old league system restored again next year or the year after anyway
Im more interested in getting performances right, seeing players playing with more desire and confidence and looking at developing a system which might actually take us places rather than worrying about relegation. Id rather see us relegated with an improving side thats progressing into a team ready for the championship rather than luckily avoid relegation by the skin of our teeth but still playing as awful as we are at the moment.0 -
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There are no positives for playing 1B next year or any year, the goal ultimtely is to win an ireland, we are only going to do this by playing the best, we might not have the players to do this at the moment but they are good enough (or should be ) to be at least playing 1A
The diference between us and the rest of 1A is mostly down to speed and our lack of it in almost every aspect of our game, we might not have the greatest fielders of the ball but that can be compensated for with the right style of play but it if its not happening in training then its not going to happen in a game, Its not rocket science, and going down to 1B is not going to make us any faster0 -
Deise Doodler wrote: »There are no positives for playing 1B next year or any year, the goal ultimtely is to win an ireland, we are only going to do this by playing the best, we might not have the players to do this at the moment but they are good enough (or should be ) to be at least playing 1A
The diference between us and the rest of 1A is mostly down to speed and our lack of it in almost every aspect of our game, we might not have the greatest fielders of the ball but that can be compensated for with the right style of play but it if its not happening in training then its not going to happen in a game, Its not rocket science, and going down to 1B is not going to make us any faster
How can we develop a style of play when were gettin hammered this does nothing for the confidence of a young team in transition. regards our fitness or speed as you call it were as fit as any team on championship day,I'd be more worried about our hurling considering a tipp team missing prob as many key players as us managed to get 31 points today 26 of those from play scored by 11 different players.. We got 17 scores today I hope people don't expect Mullane to solve this crisis alone but I honestly think 1B is prob the best for development of such a young team I think we'd come on leaps an bounds with a year down Clare an Limerick are not doing too bad. Davy will have Clare buzzing when we meet they'l be favourites in my book if we don't get a win in the league0 -
Playing Laois and Carlow in 1B really won't benefit Waterford hurling at all.0
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As an offaly man who has to watch our team in division 1b i can tell you waterford will not benefit from hurling in division 1b. I have been a long time admirer of waterford hurling and i am sad to see them going down this slippery slope. I watched the galway cork game yesterday on tv and then went along to o connor park afterwards to watch our lads play antrim. The difference between the 2 games was staggering. The cork galway game was played at a pace far higher. Offaly and antrim seemed happy to just go through the motions, ive seen junior games played with more intensity.
I was also at the league game between clare and limerick a few weeks ago and that certainly was no better, although clare looked impressive, part of that was down to the fact thats limericks fitness levels were atrocious but once again the game just plodded along.
There is nothing to be gained from playing in division 1b, the only way for any young lad to learn is to thrown in against the likes of tommy walsh, noel mcgrath etc. You might get the run arond but at least you will learn the pace and standard in which you need to get to. They will also in time learn that little bit of cuteness you need to be a top class inter county player.0 -
good man yourself ,first sentence says it allDeise Doodler wrote: »There are no positives for playing 1B next year or any year, the goal ultimtely is to win an ireland, we are only going to do this by playing the best, we might not have the players to do this at the moment but they are good enough (or should be ) to be at least playing 1A
The diference between us and the rest of 1A is mostly down to speed and our lack of it in almost every aspect of our game, we might not have the greatest fielders of the ball but that can be compensated for with the right style of play but it if its not happening in training then its not going to happen in a game, Its not rocket science, and going down to 1B is not going to make us any faster0 -
were on a collision course with 1B and have now way out, we haven't a hope of staying up in 1A,and if we do. we will become the whipping boys of that division. or golden age is over. what have to show for it a few Munster medals and winning the league in 07..
i'd trade them all for one AI medal0 -
The blue blaa wrote: »How can we develop a style of play when were gettin hammered this does nothing for the confidence of a young team in transition. regards our fitness or speed as you call it were as fit as any team on championship day,I'd be more worried about our hurling considering a tipp team missing prob as many key players as us managed to get 31 points today 26 of those from play scored by 11 different players.. We got 17 scores today I hope people don't expect Mullane to solve this crisis alone but I honestly think 1B is prob the best for development of such a young team I think we'd come on leaps an bounds with a year down Clare an Limerick are not doing too bad. Davy will have Clare buzzing when we meet they'l be favourites in my book if we don't get a win in the league
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You develop that style on the training pitch , you test it during games, no better test than the old enemeys
Am not talking about fitness, fitness is a slow build, can forgive players running out of steam at this time of year, im talking about speed at striking, hand to eye cordination, attacking the ball , decision making, burst of pace, etc this can only be achived if players are doing everything at a min of 100% intensity in training, yes the drills don't look as good (an their doing to many of them I reckon) and mistakes will be made during games (training and real) but that is how players develop.
The fact that we got 17 score today shows we have the players and no Mullane will not solve the problem but might just bring back a bit of passion and leadership (crest kissing and all)
Leaps and bounds ? why do you think Clare are bursting a gut so early in the year, to get out of it I belive0 -
were on a collision course with 1B and have now way out, we haven't a hope of staying up in 1A,and if we do. we will become the whipping boys of that division. or golden age is over. what have to show for it a few Munster medals and winning the league in 07..
i'd trade them all for one AI medal
As much as it pains me to say it, he really is right. The golden era of Waterford Hurling is over for another few years. The best chance we had of winning an All Ireland was in 04 and 07. Think of the panel we possessed back then, Ken McGrath, big Dan, Paul Flynn, John Mullane, Tony Browne, Eoin Kelly, the prendergasts, to name a few, they were all in their prime back then and were destined to win but just didn't take the chances. That was the best chance we had. Look at the panel now, there miles upon miles behind the panel back in the golden years and are streets behind. An all Ireland wont be won with the current panel. Will have to wait a few years for next generation, and even at that, players like Ken McGrath and Big Dan come once in a lifetime. I mean Ken and Dan were just unbelievable hurlers there absolute legends. This probably going back to far but I think the players should never of got rid of Justin.0 -
"The biggest worry I have is that we are not playing well all over the field. We're just not up to the pace of the game. We don't look sharp, we don't look fit and we don't look mentally focused. And that's something the management must sort out."
Above is the statement from Michael Ryan after yesterdays game, apparently this is something the management have to sort out. It seems to be lost on him that this is something management should never have let happen in the first place. He goes on to say that they cant rely on Mullane to come in and sort things out. The whole tone of his statement seems to be placing the blame of the last 3 hidings on the players. Last week his excuse was they had 7/8 players to come back in.
Training is a joke,the team lack any coherent plan but the problem lies with the players who" lack focus". I supported Ryan when he was appointed and felt he should be given time but it is obvious now that he and his management team are lightweights. When a manager makes a statement like the one above there can be only one possible outcome, lets hope its sooner rather that later.0 -
"The biggest worry I have is that we are not playing well all over the field. We're just not up to the pace of the game. We don't look sharp, we don't look fit and we don't look mentally focused. And that's something the management must sort out."
Above is the statement from Michael Ryan after yesterdays game, apparently this is something the management have to sort out. It seems to be lost on him that this is something management should never have let happen in the first place. He goes on to say that they cant rely on Mullane to come in and sort things out. The whole tone of his statement seems to be placing the blame of the last 3 hidings on the players. Last week his excuse was they had 7/8 players to come back in.
Training is a joke,the team lack any coherent plan but the problem lies with the players who" lack focus". I supported Ryan when he was appointed and felt he should be given time but it is obvious now that he and his management team are lightweights. When a manager makes a statement like the one above there can be only one possible outcome, lets hope its sooner rather that later.
The blame lies with both the players and the management. The players that crossed the white line onto the pitch yesterday showed no desire to win the game. They were beaten before they even left the bus. Thats something the players themselves have got to look at. As for the management I think they are clueless as to whats needed to make us compete. Its once thing to say its a learning curve and to give it time but from what I can see they dont even know what their meant to be learning.0 -
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"The biggest worry I have is that we are not playing well all over the field. We're just not up to the pace of the game. We don't look sharp, we don't look fit and we don't look mentally focused. And that's something the management must sort out."
Above is the statement from Michael Ryan after yesterdays game, apparently this is something the management have to sort out. It seems to be lost on him that this is something management should never have let happen in the first place. He goes on to say that they cant rely on Mullane to come in and sort things out. The whole tone of his statement seems to be placing the blame of the last 3 hidings on the players. Last week his excuse was they had 7/8 players to come back in.
Training is a joke,the team lack any coherent plan but the problem lies with the players who" lack focus". I supported Ryan when he was appointed and felt he should be given time but it is obvious now that he and his management team are lightweights. When a manager makes a statement like the one above there can be only one possible outcome, lets hope its sooner rather that later.
Stall the ball there, he just accepted responsibility yet you say he's shifting the blame?
I heard the interview, I was worried before he made the comment you quoted when he mentioned they still had Mullane and a few to come back in, but after it he said that there may be players missing but that's still no excuse for the performance yesterday.
We kept Davy Fitzgerald for 3 years despite getting hammered by Kilkenny in the All-Ireland final. Fitzgerald came out afterwards and accepted responsibility. Applying your principle of 'management should not have let it happen', should he have been fired there and then? What about last year after the Tipp game when in his column in the Star he took absolutely no responsibility for probably the worst managerial performance I have ever seen in any sport in my life.
I know yesterdays performance wasn't good enough and we need to show some good strides of improvement before we play that relegation playoff, but you can't ignore the fact that Mullane, Connors, Ringo and Paudi Mahony were all missing. David O'Sullivan was listed on the bench, I suspect that means he's returning from injury and thing he will be a good addition to the team as he has been one of the most impressive players I've seen in the county championship the past two years.
We did lose too Tipp by 21 points last year, and while I know they don't have Lar Corbett and Bonner Maher, they have quality players like John O'Neill and Shane Bourke who were looking to stake a claim for a place in the team as well as Brendan Maher an though he wasn't their best performer yesterday he played pretty well and I do believe he is their best player and wasn't even available for selection last year against us when they slaughtered us, he was only brought on late.
Anyone calling for Ryan's head at this stage is being both unrealistic and unfair.
Bottom line is if we don't get relegated, than a lot of attitudes will change and all will temporarily be forgiven. It tells you the caliber of the league when the reigning champions who appear to be an ever improving side, who managed to score 6 goals against Kilkenny for what must be the first time in 20 years, are also likely to be facing a one off match to decide whether they stay in the Division.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »It tells you the caliber of the league when the reigning champions who appear to be an ever improving side, who managed to score 6 goals against Kilkenny for what must be the first time in 20 years, are also likely to be facing a one off match to decide whether they stay in the Division.
It shows how much were out of our depth in this division if you ask me. Cant see us getting anything out of these last 2 games. Dublin have surpassed us unfortunately. Unless we have a full strength team they will eat us alive and thats not forgetting they are missing a good few themselves0 -
were on a collision course with 1B and have now way out, we haven't a hope of staying up in 1A,and if we do. we will become the whipping boys of that division.
We may be on a collision course for 1B if we can't pull out all the stops and deliver a championship-like performance to send down Dublin. If we do stay up, I am not sure we would become the whipping boys of 1A, or rather we would only become that, if we continued to treat the league as if it were an 8-team division.
The other teams, have adapted pretty quickly to the fact all games are pretty much do-or-die games, but we have been seriously off the pace, perhaps treating the league as we would have in years gone past. After all, are we seriously saying we could not give Cork/ Galway/ Clare or Limerick a game, if we managed to stay in 1A and were motoring ok next year..0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »"The biggest worry I have is that we are not playing well all over the field. We're just not up to the pace of the game. We don't look sharp, we don't look fit and we don't look mentally focused. And that's something the management must sort out."
Above is the statement from Michael Ryan after yesterdays game, apparently this is something the management have to sort out. It seems to be lost on him that this is something management should never have let happen in the first place. He goes on to say that they cant rely on Mullane to come in and sort things out. The whole tone of his statement seems to be placing the blame of the last 3 hidings on the players. Last week his excuse was they had 7/8 players to come back in.
Training is a joke,the team lack any coherent plan but the problem lies with the players who" lack focus". I supported Ryan when he was appointed and felt he should be given time but it is obvious now that he and his management team are lightweights. When a manager makes a statement like the one above there can be only one possible outcome, lets hope its sooner rather that later.
Stall the ball there, he just accepted responsibility yet you say he's shifting the blame?
I heard the interview, I was worried before he made the comment you quoted when he mentioned they still had Mullane and a few to come back in, but after it he said that there may be players missing but that's still no excuse for the performance yesterday.
We kept Davy Fitzgerald for 3 years despite getting hammered by Kilkenny in the All-Ireland final. Fitzgerald came out afterwards and accepted responsibility. Applying your principle of 'management should not have let it happen', should he have been fired there and then? What about last year after the Tipp game when in his column in the Star he took absolutely no responsibility for probably the worst managerial performance I have ever seen in any sport in my life.
I know yesterdays performance wasn't good enough and we need to show some good strides of improvement before we play that relegation playoff, but you can't ignore the fact that Mullane, Connors, Ringo and Paudi Mahony were all missing. David O'Sullivan was listed on the bench, I suspect that means he's returning from injury and thing he will be a good addition to the team as he has been one of the most impressive players I've seen in the county championship the past two years.
We did lose too Tipp by 21 points last year, and while I know they don't have Lar Corbett and Bonner Maher, they have quality players like John O'Neill and Shane Bourke who were looking to stake a claim for a place in the team as well as Brendan Maher an though he wasn't their best performer yesterday he played pretty well and I do believe he is their best player and wasn't even available for selection last year against us when they slaughtered us, he was only brought on late.
Anyone calling for Ryan's head at this stage is being both unrealistic and unfair.
Bottom line is if we don't get relegated, than a lot of attitudes will change and all will temporarily be forgiven. It tells you the caliber of the league when the reigning champions who appear to be an ever improving side, who managed to score 6 goals against Kilkenny for what must be the first time in 20 years, are also likely to be facing a one off match to decide whether they stay in the Division.
Ringo hasn't been on the panel for 3 years at least(I think) and yet he's one of the 'main players' that your relying on when he returns? Come on lads. He can't surely be one of the key players to save our season can he?0 -
lovelypoint wrote: »The other teams, have adapted pretty quickly to the fact all games are pretty much do-or-die games, but we have been seriously off the pace, perhaps treating the league as we would have in years gone past. After all, are we seriously saying we could not give Cork/ Galway/ Clare or Limerick a game, if we managed to stay in 1A and were motoring ok next year..
I think this is a very interesting point and maybe some of the players have not mentally adapted to the fact that to stay in the league in its current format, the 5 games are as you say, do or die. If we're all honest, in previous years we used the league to experiment, knowing that we would almost be guaranteed to win two games against weaker counties and thus never have the threat of relegation hanging over us. I'm not making excuses for the performances in this year's league which have not been accepatble but the new format has definitely changed the way counties are approaching the league. We do not seem to have adoped to this and obviously the buck for that has to rest with the management.
That all said, I think we have to remember that this team with these same players reached an All Ireland semi final last year, beating one of the teams now suddenly perceived to be streets ahead of us well (Galway) and pushing the eventual winners extremely hard in the semi final. The team has not suddenly become a crowd of no hopers over the course of a few months. This management are in for at least this season and I think that they have to be judged on the basis of the Championship and as far as I know, that does not start until June. These players deserve our full support.0 -
I think this is a very interesting point and maybe some of the players have not mentally adapted to the fact that to stay in the league in its current format, the 5 games are as you say, do or die. If we're all honest, in previous years we used the league to experiment, knowing that we would almost be guaranteed to win two games against weaker counties and thus never have the threat of relegation hanging over us. I'm not making excuses for the performances in this year's league which have not been accepatble but the new format has definitely changed the way counties are approaching the league. We do not seem to have adoped to this and obviously the buck for that has to rest with the management.
That all said, I think we have to remember that this team with these same players reached an All Ireland semi final last year, beating one of the teams now suddenly perceived to be streets ahead of us well (Galway) and pushing the eventual winners extremely hard in the semi final. The team has not suddenly become a crowd of no hopers over the course of a few months. This management are in for at least this season and I think that they have to be judged on the basis of the Championship and as far as I know, that does not start until June. These players deserve our full support.
The championship structure in place in quite difficult and over the past few years we have escaped very lightly. if we beat clare then we are through to a munster final and at least an all ireland quarter final and if we lose to clare than its the quilfers were we be pitted against one of the 2 losing leinster semi finalists (Dublin, Offaly,Galway,Wexford or Kilkenny).
A private traning session in tramore could solve things once again if need be0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »The blame lies with both the players and the management. The players that crossed the white line onto the pitch yesterday showed no desire to win the game. They were beaten before they even left the bus. Thats something the players themselves have got to look at. As for the management I think they are clueless as to whats needed to make us compete. Its once thing to say its a learning curve and to give it time but from what I can see they dont even know what their meant to be learning.
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That all said, I think we have to remember that this team with these same players reached an All Ireland semi final last year, beating one of the teams now suddenly perceived to be streets ahead of us well (Galway) and pushing the eventual winners extremely hard in the semi final. The team has not suddenly become a crowd of no hopers over the course of a few months
your right they haven',t but I think weve definetly gone backwards from last year again.
The way I see it the great Waterford team over the past 15 years with the likes of Flynn, McGrath, Shanahan ect. had more or less run its course once Justin went in June 08. Or probably even after the 07 semi defeat to Limerick. We have disimproved gradually every season since. In 08 we snuck into an AI final without having played particularly well that year, bar the 08 semi against Tipp we caught them on the hop. We were completely found out in the final against KK.
09 was basically about getting pride back after the 08 massacre and in 10 we probably peaked under Davy Fitz, or an ageing team got a bit of a second wind, whatever way you want to look at it. We had some good results in the league that year and got munster championship out of it. Last year though we were back to square one and only a shadow of the team we were, bar the quarter final win against Galway which was a great performance, we were very much on the wane. Im starting to beleive that Davy had us playing actually above ourselves not beneath ourselves like everyone has been suggesting0 -
Heard the players have requested a meeting with management tonight to address concern re training.
Training has not been up to the standard required at this level. Hence Ml Ryan is right to be concerned at the fitness levels. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to realise thats down to him. Reminds me a lot of end of Justins reign. Players not happy, and I've heard from people who have attended training sessions that it is more like a Junior B session with players barely breaking sweat.
I think we're going nowhere fast, but county board dont have the spine to deal with the problem and if there is to be a change they will wait for the players to rebel.
Agree with the poster who says no benefit to us playing in 1B. When is the right time to bring in new management. Is it after relegation, or after Clare beat us or should we see the year out for the sake of it. I'd say now0 -
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Seeing as we're in relegation territory, does anyone know what the story is, if ourselves and Galway finish on 4 points each, and Dublin on 2, what decides who will play Dublin - is it points difference between ourselves and Galway, or is it the head-to-head ?
For some reason, I presumed it was points difference, meaning that no matter what, it is ourselves and Dublin in the mix to decide relegation, but if it is the head-to-head, and we win both of our next games and Galway lose to KK in the last round, then it would be a Galway-Dublin relegation decider. A big ask, I know..0
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