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WW1 Soldiers Traitors?

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    #92
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    con___manx1 wrote: »
    I am proud of the Irish men who fought in the British army.

    Why anyone would be proud of people that fought for such a vile empire is beyond me. :(


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    #93
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    The first AND second Victoria Cross medals of WW1 were won by Irishmen.

    What's not to be proud of?

    tac


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    #94
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Why anyone would be proud of people that fought for such a vile empire is beyond me. :(
    What's vile about it? Only for them you would not be able to write this if the Germans had their way in WW1 & WW2.


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    #95
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    tac foley wrote: »
    The first AND second Victoria Cross medals of WW1 were won by Irishmen.

    What's not to be proud of?

    tac

    Medals won while fighting for an evil empire that has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing around the world.
    roundymac wrote: »
    What's vile about it? Only for them you would not be able to write this if the Germans had their way in WW1 & WW2.

    Should I thank them for the crimes the British Army have committed in my country?


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    #96
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    evil empire

    why the adjective?

    Has every nation that become powerful enough to become an empire not done unpleasant things?

    I wouldn't consider them traitors, we were part of the UK at the time end of story.


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    #97
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Medals won while fighting for an evil empire that has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing around the world.



    Should I thank them for the crimes the British Army have committed in my country?

    Do you thank the Provos for the crimes they have committed in our country and in our country's name?


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    #98
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    So what do you think of ISIS and Al Qeada com pred to the UK and US?


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    #99
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Medals won while fighting for an evil empire that has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing around the world.



    Should I thank them for the crimes the British Army have committed in my country?


    yawn.

    If you really want to carry on making political pie out of something that happened a hundred years ago in one case, and seventy years ago in another, I'd be grateful if you add a little more informative context to your comment and less hysterical foaming. The British stopped having any real interest in your country in 1922 - since then you've been on your own, but more than welcome to join in any fight that the British might be holding from time to time, as the nigh-on endless awards for bravery that gallant Irishmen have won since then. If you REALLY want to impress me - and maybe a few others here - you might make a good start by finding relatives of Paddy Mayne, and telling them that you think that he was a traitor, or another Paddy, Finucane by name.

    I'll hold your coat. :)

    tac


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    #100
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Are you really suggesting that zebra 3 drive around Northern Ireland harassing elderly men and women?
    Is that your idea of soldiering?
    tac foley wrote: »
    yawn.

    If you really want to carry on making political pie out of something that happened a hundred years ago in one case, and seventy years ago in another, I'd be grateful if you add a little more informative context to your comment and less hysterical foaming. The British stopped having any real interest in your country in 1922 - since then you've been on your own, but more than welcome to join in any fight that the British might be holding from time to time, as the nigh-on endless awards for bravery that gallant Irishmen have won since then. If you REALLY want to impress me - and maybe a few others here - you might make a good start by finding relatives of Paddy Mayne, and telling them that you think that he was a traitor, or another Paddy, Finucane by name.

    I'll hold your coat. :)

    tac


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    #101
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    roundymac wrote: »
    What's vile about it? Only for them you would not be able to write this if the Germans had their way in WW1 & WW2.
    Why would the Germans have prevented anyone from criticising the British Empire? Or is this a sort of butterfly wing alternative history thing like in let's go to Golgotha?


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    #102
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Why would the Germans have prevented anyone from criticising the British Empire? Or is this a sort of butterfly wing alternative history thing like in let's go to Golgotha?
    What ever turns you on.


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    #103
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    tac foley wrote: »
    My maternal grandfather also fought on the Somme, but never came home. He joined up to get away from my grandmother, and nothing to do with hunger.

    If you want to see him now, go to Plot 1, Row B, Templeux-le-Guérard Communal Cemetery Extension, Department of the Somme.

    RIP - D/9947 Pt Wm V Collins 6th Dragoon Guards [Carabiniers]

    tac
    If you have access, his service record is available to view on ancestry.

    After April 1916, pension allocation letters to soldiers/wives/children bear the name Matthew Nathan - shunted across to a different department after the Easter Rising.


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    #104
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Thanks, Mr Doyle - mrs tac is already on Ancestry.com WW1 records, but we were helped out by a dear friend in Oregon, who is a researcher/archivist for the CoLDS. She was astute enough to tie two unusual names together and then to produce my g'father's entire military records.

    A VERY large proportion of the British Army records were either destroyed or fire-damaged - all of mine are black round the edges or burnt away. The Army Records Office, then located in central London, was destroyed in the blitz in 1941, and many records were lost completely, much as the destruction of the four courts during the Civil War deprived Ireland of the historical census records, among other priceless items. So tracing my Irish father's family and past records is as almost insurmountable task - all I have is a facsimile copy of the housing occupancy roll from the 1911 census which was also obtained by a friend of our who is an investigative archivist for the CoLDS - the Mormons - in Salt Lake City Utah.

    For some reason they seem to have acquired most of the records that we here in Europe can no longer access.

    The CoLDS have access world-wide, and are well-worth contacting. Their archivists are also far more canny in their pursuit of disconnected identities, like my grandfather, who lied to the recruiting office in Glasgow when he enlisted to escape my grandmother, who was not far short of giving birth to my mother in 1914. It took three years of letters to his various CO's to trace him and make him acknowledge his responsibilities to his wife and family. He went back to England just the one time to see them, and to make some [very small] effort to help them out financially by an allotment of pay, only for him to get killed a couple of months later.

    tac


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    #105
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    His will can be found online via

    https://www.gov.uk/probate-search


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    #106
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Mr Doyle, thank you for that. I've ordered a copy of his Army Will form. I have no doubt that it will be blank.

    When you have nothing, it's not that difficult to leave nothing.

    tac


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    #107
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    You will probably find it just has the generic text about leaving any property to someone as a catch all. What I like about these documents is thay they generally have the person's own handwriting.


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    #108
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    You will probably find it just has the generic text about leaving any property to someone as a catch all. What I like about these documents is thay they generally have the person's own handwriting.

    If that is so, then it is the only thing I will ever have seen that is directly attributable to him. Over in Canada we have a spur that belonged to the other grandfather, who actually served in the same regiment.

    tac

    EDIT - I've just received my downloadable will, and it's a very moving experience to read it. He made it in December of 1916, and it is written in his own hand.


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    #109
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    why the adjective?

    Why not? It fits perfectly.
    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Has every nation that become powerful enough to become an empire not done unpleasant things?

    So that's ok then? Excuse crimes by Germany too?
    Balmed Out wrote: »
    I wouldn't consider them traitors, we were part of the UK at the time end of story.

    I wouldn't consider them traitors, gullible fools some.
    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    Do you thank the Provos for the crimes they have committed in our country and in our country's name?

    Why are you bringing the thread off topic? :rolleyes:
    tac foley wrote: »
    yawn.

    Yawn yourself.
    tac foley wrote: »
    If you really want to carry on making political pie out of something that happened a hundred years ago in one case, and seventy years ago in another, I'd be grateful if you add a little more informative context to your comment and less hysterical foaming. The British stopped having any real interest in your country in 1922 - since then you've been on your own, but more than welcome to join in any fight that the British might be holding from time to time, as the nigh-on endless awards for bravery that gallant Irishmen have won since then. If you REALLY want to impress me - and maybe a few others here - you might make a good start by finding relatives of Paddy Mayne, and telling them that you think that he was a traitor, or another Paddy, Finucane by name.

    I'll hold your coat. :)

    tac


    Some fine lies there.

    Nobody is making political pie out of anything.

    No hysterical foaming.

    And you think I've an interest in impressing someone who plays down Britain's crimes? Don't flatter yourself sunshine....


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    #110
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    And you think I've an interest in impressing someone who plays down Britain's crimes? Don't flatter yourself sunshine....
    Don't get worked up. He's Canadian.


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    #111
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Some fine lies there.

    And you think I've an interest in impressing someone who plays down Britain's crimes? Don't flatter yourself sunshine....

    Lies?

    The Army Medals Office is full of records of the awards made to Irishmen who served in the British Armed Forces over the years.

    Blair Mayne's exploits, as well as those of Paddy Finucane, are also a matter of historical record.

    But of course, there IS the possibility that is was all made up - all those years ago - to give you an excuse for your violent rant. Although that is about as likely as you and I ever finding common ground.

    As for being flattered, I AM flattered that you took time from your endless seeth to direct a personal remark at me.

    Have a nice day, eh?

    tac


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