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Ongoing religious scandals

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    Is their any information on the religious affiliations of TD's and the senior civil servants who run this country.

    I'd say you could google some, but that's considered "private" info AFAIK so there's not like a database or anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    TBH I think that TD's openly saying they are catholic and going to mass to be seen helps them get elected, which says a lot about our indoctrinated electorate.

    Is their any information on the religious affiliations of TD's and the senior civil servants who run this country.
    Forget mere catholics, friend, it is Opus Dei and another one whose name sounds like Crosseo that you should be worried about. Three present cabinet mambers are said to be senior Opus Dei people, not including Dr. Michael Woods who signed off on the secret deal, kept from the attorney general, who was known to oppose the idea, re the state paying off all but a small proportion of the church's expected paedofile sexual abuse costs;
    " According to critics, Opus Dei is aggressively right wing in its teachings, and operates a form of thought control. Disciples undergo bouts of agonising self-inflicted torture, allegedly designed to clarify thought and cleanse the spirit. They are also taught to avoid natural human feelings, being admonished instead to have a 'reticent and guarded heart.' Likewise, disciples are not permitted to read certain books, including those authored by communist ideologist Karl Marx. Detractors believe it a religious faction that shares numerous values similar to the neo-nazis that people the Masonic P2 lodge. Until recently - and for hundreds of years previously - any member of the Catholic church who was found to be a Freemason was automatically ex-communicated. Despite this many members of the Curia were discovered to be covert members of P2. Subsequently, in 1983, a new Canon Law announced that this would cease. Thereafter, any member of the Roman Church was free to become a Freemason. "


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    TBH I think that TD's openly saying they are catholic and going to mass to be seen helps them get elected, which says a lot about our indoctrinated electorate.

    Is their any information on the religious affiliations of TD's and the senior civil servants who run this country.
    Here is some more info if you are worried about living in a world-wide theocracy !
    "According to Father Andrew Greeley, "Opus Dei is a devious, antidemocratic, reactionary, semi-fascist institution, desperately hungry for absolute power in the Church and quite possibly very close now to having that power. Calling the group "authoritarian and power-mad:" the American Catholic priest and author said, "Opus Dei is an extremely dangerous organization because it appeals to the love of secrecy and the power lust of certain kinds of religious personalities. It may well be the most powerful group in the Church today. It is capable of doing an enormous amount of harm. It ought to be forced to come out into the open or be suppressed:'
    In a recent Church & State, Religious News Service's Rome correspondent Eleni Dimmler estimates that worldwide there are 74,000 in the most devoted membership categories (1300 are priests) and 700,000 Opus Dei "cooperators:" "With this international 'army' of devoted members, Opus Dei has created an impressive network of activities in countries around the world ... According to a 1979 memo, members of the movement work, among other things, at 487 universities and schools, 694 newspapers and periodicals, 52 TV or radio stations, 38 publicity agencies and twelve film companies.-
    The March 19, 1984, issue of U.S. News and World Report examined these two secret Catholic elite religious societies: the Knights of Malta with one thousand U.S. members who are prominent in government, business, or professional life and Opus Dei with three thousand U.S. members of widely varied backgrounds. The number of U.S. members in the "cooperator" category has not been revealed but could run more than 100,000.
    The central tenet of Opus Dei is to "help shape the world in a Catholic manner" and its American members include "priests, middle and upperclass businessmen, professionals, military personnel and government officials:"
    The Knights of Malta dates back to the time of the Crusades; its present members are reported to include some of our nation's most prominent Catholics: CIA Director William Casey; William Wilson; Vernon Walters; Senators Denton and Domenici; Alexander Haig; William Sloan; and William F Buckley, creator and leader of Young Americans for Freedom, from which many of the Reagan administration team have been drawn. According to members, the order serves "as an international defender of the Church * - In June of each year a ceremony is held in Rome for Knights of Malta which includes the "swearing of allegiance to the defense of the Holy Mother Church:" Herein lies the problem for population growth control and its recognition as a national security issue. The Knights are committed to defending the Church. Only the most devout and obedient are invited to join the Knights and Opus Dei (which its detractors have compared to mind-controlling cults). If the Vatican has determined that population growth control threatens the Holy Mother Church, the members of these societies are obliged to counter this threat by thwarting the development of population growth control government policies and their execution. "


    BTW, this is not me posting this and even if it was, I live on the moon and won't be visiting earth for a long time...................aghhhhh!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Sorry, who exactly says who is in Opus Dei - or your post might as well be about UFO abduction. A detail-less, source-less accusation ain't worth much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    Dades wrote: »
    Sorry, who exactly says who is in Opus Dei - or your post might as well be about UFO abduction. A detail-less, source-less accusation ain't worth much.
    Now, you dirty heathen, you, you have been warned.
    Any of the rest of you filthy atheists and agnostic "brothelisers" who read the following may have to be eliminated, by being whipped to death with one of our nasty little auto-flaggelators:...........we can let you have one of them for twenty euro and singing fifty rosaries to the tune of "kevin barry", while stretched naked on the top of Croach Patrick, at midnight on 1st march.....


    Recortes de prensa: OPUS DEI’S IRISH ACTIVITIES DESCRIBED

    Harto :
    The Irish Times
    by Aidan O’Sullivan (16/1/1998, p.14)

    Dr. John Roche, the Galway-born Oxford university lecturer who earlier this week disclosed details of the religious organisation Opus Dei to the London Times, has commented on its Irish branch.

    A senior member of the organisation for 14!/2 years, Dr. Roche now lectures at Linacre College Oxford, and said that the Irish wing of Opus Dei numbers its membership at more than one thousand with about 30 priest-members...


    He said that organisation, largely a lay Catholic one, is widely dispersed throughout the country, from its initial base in Galway and Dublin, where its Irish branch was founded in the 1950’s despite some opposition initially from the late Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. John Charles McQuaid.

    Dr. Roche is no longer a member of Opus, and said that he is writing a book about the organisation which originated in Spain. He said that when it became known some years ago that he was taking notes on how Opus Dei operates, a superior ordered him to hand over his documents, but that he had copies of the originals which were given back when he was on holiday in Galway. He said that Opus Dei was easily able to recruit university students here in the 1950’s as there was little intellectual stimulation in the university atmosphere at that time, and that the organisation offered some stimulus and leadership in comparatively apathetic times.

    However he was critical of the organisation on several grounds, particularly its secrecy, adding that even after all his years of membership he was unsure how many members made up the Irish branch and he was unaware of the identity of most of the members. He said that few ex-members ever talked about the organisation, an indication of the conditioning imposed by the rules.

    INTERNAL STRUCTURE
    The internal structure of the organisation too, is a carefully guarded secret he said, as are some of the practices. Some Irish members whip themselves daily with a leather whip impregnated with metal, and Dr. Roche said that he has produced this whip for journalists to see over the last few days. Other practices include curtailment of personal freedom, and some women members sleep on bare boards.

    A spokesman for Opus Dei in Dublin said the organisation was very hurt about Dr. Roche’s allegations, but it would not be replying to them, saying that this was not appropriate at the present time. He said that the members of Opus Dei had visited the editor of the London Times over the last few days, asking The Times to apologise for its story on Dr. Roche’s disclosures, adding that they caused deep hurt to the organisation.

    The university hostel operated by Opus Dei, such as Nullamore in Dublin and Gort Ard and Ros Geal in Galway, are really recruiting grounds for the various degree of Opus Dei membership, Dr. Roche alleged. So too are its youth clubs, run under the St. Raphael banner. He quoted extensively from the works of Opus Dei’s founder Monsignor Jose Maria Escriva de Balaguer, which this out clearly to Opus Dei members emphasising that recruitment is the prime drive of the organisation.

    RECRUITMENT
    Added that he is a concerned Catholic, and that his aim has been to reform rather than damage Opus Dei R. Roche said that eventually he was expelled from the organisation when it became clear that he was making a study of its internal working and was sceptical of its recruitment techniques particularly involving teenagers , some as young as 15, who were told that if their parents disapproved, they should not confide membership to their families.

    Opus Dei funds its Irish operations, Dr. Roche said, by having some of its members give up part of their salaries to the organisation. He also said that Opus Dei members asked acquaintances they felt could afford it, for support.

    POLITICAL INFLUENCE
    As an organisation, he said it exerted considerable political influence, and most probably had members or sympathisers highly placed in Irish politics, not to mention the media, business, banks and the professions, particularly medicine. Most people associated with Opus Dei, apart from a few, denied membership, or any association, and this tactic is fully approved by Opus Dei as a matter of course. In this, Opus Dei has been linked to the Masons, on which it is reputedly modelled.

    Moving to the structure of Opus Dei in Ireland, he said that its headquarters are at Harvieston, Cunningham Road, Dalkey, Co. Dublin. Here the priest members live, while it also has an information centre at 9, Hume Street, in Dublin.

    It has vertical and horizontal degrees of membership involving both clergy (including diocesan clergy) and lay people.

    Numerarii, he said, were the top people, taking private vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, from which hunchbacks, the one-eyed and stutterers were excluded. Dr. Roche said that such exclusions were common at certain levels in the Church until recently.

    Next came Supernumerarii, which made up most of the membership, and were mainly married lay people, offering their first loyalty to Opus Dei, not their spouse, and who supported the organisation financially to some extent.

    Associates came next, and are intellectually inferior most often to the high ranks, while the Numerarii are almost always graduates.

    Cooperators have been more of a helping role, mostly financially. Freemasons and Communists are excluded, while membership of Opus Dei generally is open to all religions, but in Ireland is mainly Catholic.

    Pope John Paul II, Dr. Roche said, was a Cooperator of Opus Dei prior to his election as Pope, but was obliged by the nature of the Papacy to relinquish all ties with religious orders. Opus Dei’s influence in Vatican circles, and in Ireland, has increased recently as Opus Dei members took up key Vatican advisory positions.

    Dr. Roche said that he knew of no members of Opus in Ireland who had seen a full list of members or a list of any category of membership.

    Some useful pages

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_Opus_Dei
    http://www.druidschool.com/site/1030100/page/936585
    http://www.opusdei.ie/sec.php?s=1022
    http://www.odan.org/tw_opus_dei_survival_kit.htm

    Some declared members:
    Rory O'Hanlon (d. 2002), Professor of Criminal and Constitutional Law at University College Dublin and High Court Judge in Ireland (1981 - 1995). He was dismissed by the Irish Government from Presidency of the Law Reform Commission in 1992, after commenting that if membership of the EU forced the introduction of abortion to Ireland, the country should withdraw from the Union. He later sued the Government and won substantial damages.[14] He was a supernumerary member of Opus Dei.[15]
    Michael Adams - Irish publisher (d.2009). He was a numerary member and the Managing Director of Four Courts Press, Ireland's largest academic publishing house.[24] Adams was the author of a book Censorship: The Irish Experience, which was critical of the operation of the former Irish system of literary censorship.
    Maurice O'Grady was Chief Executive of the Irish Management Institute, and is a supernumerary.[24]


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  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    Dades wrote: »
    Sorry, who exactly says who is in Opus Dei - or your post might as well be about UFO abduction. A detail-less, source-less accusation ain't worth much.
    Plus, friend, I can admit that these guys really do scare the hell out of me.
    I know two of the names as facts and have been told the third name but am not sure,
    but I am damned if I will repeat them here or even in a private conversation, given what I know about how they have destroyed some lives, professionally, emotionally and economically. Then, we all know what they did to Roberto Calvi of P2, so wetwork is not really a problem, if their enemies are important enough to them.
    This time no jokes !


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Irlandese wrote: »
    I know two of the names as facts and have been told the third name but am not sure,
    but I am damned if I will repeat them here or even in a private conversation, given what I know about how they have destroyed some lives, professionally, emotionally and economically.
    Names and sources or it's Black Helicopters, tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Dades wrote: »
    Names and sources or it's Black Helicopters, tbh.

    Silly Dades. Everyone knows it's us atheists that have all the black helicopters. We use them to oppress Creation scientists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    Dades wrote: »
    Names and sources or it's Black Helicopters, tbh.
    I am not here.
    I was never here.
    I am becoming a christian and taking up alter-boys as a hobby.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Wrong forum, perhaps? Try soc>conspiracy theories

    A world where reason and logic are seen as tools of oppression.

    (No, really!)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Irlandese wrote: »
    I am not here.
    I was never here.
    I am becoming a christian and taking up alter-boys as a hobby.

    Thailand has lots of those.

    In regards to the Opus Dei thing, Michael Woods has denied being a member a few times.

    Former High Court Judge Rory O'Hanlon is an interesting case - anti abortion, anti divorce, fired as President of the Law Reform Commission as a result of saying Ireland should withdraw from the EU if it seemed like the EU would "force abortion" on the country.

    Edit: Should have said, O' Hanlon was a member of Opus Dei!


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    Thailand has lots of those.

    In regards to the Opus Dei thing, Michael Woods has denied being a member a few times.

    Former High Court Judge Rory O'Hanlon is an interesting case - anti abortion, anti divorce, fired as President of the Law Reform Commission as a result of saying Ireland should withdraw from the EU if it seemed like the EU would "force abortion" on the country.
    Could one collect altar or alter boys like chess pieces ?
    It could clutter up the side-board something awful, though !
    Naw, maybe I could try to collect real catholic saints instead.
    Much easier to store those. Take up no room whatsoever, eh?

    I actually had a lot of time for the now deceased Judge O Hanlon.
    He was possibly quite bonkers and certainly hung around with some really dubious and probably very very nasty people on the far-right christian fringes.
    But at a personal human level, I had direct evidence that the man was a decent and caring human being who did a lot of quiet charity stuff, so, though I hated his politics and shenanigans, I have to say I liked the quirky and obviously sincere person that stood in behind all that nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    Wrong forum, perhaps? Try soc>conspiracy theories

    A world where reason and logic are seen as tools of oppression.

    (No, really!)
    Ah, I understand.
    Is that part of the christianity forum then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    Thailand has lots of those.

    In regards to the Opus Dei thing, Michael Woods has denied being a member a few times.

    Former High Court Judge Rory O'Hanlon is an interesting case - anti abortion, anti divorce, fired as President of the Law Reform Commission as a result of saying Ireland should withdraw from the EU if it seemed like the EU would "force abortion" on the country.

    Edit: Should have said, O' Hanlon was a member of Opus Dei!
    Michael Woods denied a lot of things.
    So did Dermot Ahearne and even dear, well-intentioned Brian Lenihan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Irlandese wrote: »
    Ah, I understand.
    Is that part of the christianity forum then?

    No, it is a forum, in its own right. The Christianity forum is a sub-forum of Religion & Spirituality.

    Let me know if you require any more assistance!

    :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    No, it is a forum, in its own right. The Christianity forum is a sub-forum of Religion & Spirituality.

    Let me know if you require any more assistance!

    :)
    Thanks,
    It was your bit about "A world where reason and logic are seen as tools of oppression."
    that somehow made me think of the Christianity forum. Silly me ! Will try to remember next time.............


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Columbian cardinal says that reporting suspicions of abuse to the police amounts to "injustice".

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/22/AR2010042204799.html
    BOGOTA -- A senior cardinal defended the Roman Catholic Church's practice of frequently not reporting sexual abusive priests to the police, saying Thursday it would have been like testifying against a family member at trial. Colombian Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos also said in a radio interview that Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was involved in a 2001 decision to praise a French bishop for shielding a priest who was convicted of raping minors. "The law in nations with a well-developed judiciary does not force anyone to testify against a child, a father, against other people close to the suspect," Castrillon told RCN radio. "Why would they ask that of the church? That's the injustice. It's not about defending a pedophile, it's about defending the dignity and the human rights of a person, even the worst of criminals." While the church stands by "those who truly were victims (of sexual abuse)," he added, "John Paul II, that holy pope, was not wrong when he defended his priests so that they were not, due to economic reasons, treated like criminal pedophiles without due process."

    His comments came just days after the Vatican posted on its website guidelines telling bishops they should report abusive priests to police if civil laws require it. The Vatican has claimed that was long its policy, though it was never written before explicitly. The Vatican posted the guidelines as a response to mounting criticism that it mandated a culture of secrecy that instructed bishops to keep abuse quiet, letting it fester unchecked for decades. Outrage over the church's handling of sexual abuse allegations against priests is spreading across Latin America, where the large majority of more than 500 million people are Roman Catholics.

    In Brazil, an 83-year-old priest was detained this week on allegations that he abused at least three boys, beginning when they were 12-years-old. A bishop in Brazil who oversaw three priests accused of sexual abuse acknowledged on Thursday the "shame and dishonor" brought upon the church. Chile's bishops on Tuesday asked for forgiveness for past cases of abuse. On Thursday, a prosecutor announced a criminal investigation of a popular retired priest, Fernando Karadima, accused of sexually abusing five young men in his parish residence.

    Castrillon - the 80-year-old Colombian cardinal - was an influential figure at the Vatican before his recent retirement from active duty, heading the Vatican's office for clergy as well as efforts to reconcile with ultraconservatives who had broken away from the church. Recently the cardinal himself has been drawn into the international scandal over the church's handling of child abuse by priests due to the surfacing of the 2001 letter, which he wrote, praising the French bishop. Castrillon said last week in Spain that he showed the letter to then-Pope John Paul II, who authorized him to send it to bishops worldwide. On Thursday, he said the letter was the product of a high-level meeting at which Ratzinger was present.

    "It was a meeting of cardinals. Therefore the current pope (Benedict XVI), who at that time was a cardinal, was present. The pope (John Paul II) was never at those meetings. However the Holy Father was indeed present when we spoke about this matter in the council, and the cardinals ruled."

    At the time the letter was drafted, Castrillon was prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and president of the Pontifical "Ecclesia Dei" Commission. The cardinal also accused unnamed insiders and enemies elsewhere of feeding the sex abuse scandals hurting the Catholic Church. "Unfortunately there are ... useful idiots inside (the church) who lend themselves to this type of persecution," Castrillon told RCN, using a term for people duped into sympathizing with a foe of their interests. "But I'm not afraid to say that in some cases it's within the Masons, together with other enemies of the church."

    He would not give details, however, saying that "since I'm not stupid, I don't tell everything I know. Only drunks, children and idiots tell, and I'm not a child, nor a drunk, nor stupid." This week, after the 2001 letter made news, a Catholic group in the United States announced it would find someone else to celebrate a special Mass this weekend marking the fifth anniversary of Pope Benedict XVI's inauguration. Advocates for abuse victims had objected to Castrillon's presence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    it's about defending the dignity and the human rights of a person, even the worst of criminals.

    So, reporting people for their crimes is against their human rights? :confused:

    [IanO'Doherty]It's against their ooman rights innit?[/IanO'Doherty]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 Hmm?


    Irlandese wrote: »
    I just see todays Irish Times very important and un-deniably authorative comment from the great and long officially church-silenced Christian Theologian, Dr. Hans Kung:

    Kung has been firmly trounced by George Weigel. I think it's only fair to give your readers the chance to read it.

    Kung is regarded by orthodox Catholics as a bitter joke.
    When asked by CNA last Friday why he felt compelled to respond to Kung's letter, Weigel said that he was “struck by the extraordinary vitriol of the article and by its misstatements of fact, both of which required a response.” Weigel added that he would welcome a response from Kung “in which the issues were truly engaged,” but that “another Swiss volcanic eruption wouldn't serve much purpose.”

    On April 21, he called Kung’s charge against Pope Benedict “a tissue of falsehoods.” The theologian’s comment, Weigel said, was “manifestly ignorant” of the fact that sexual abuse cases were not under then-Cardinal Ratzinger’s oversight until 2001.

    This ignorance forfeits “any claim to be taken seriously on this, or indeed any other matter involving the Roman Curia and the central governance of the Catholic Church.”

    Weigel noted his own criticisms of the mishandling of abuse cases by individual bishops and by Vatican authorities before then-Cardinal Ratzinger began to press for reforms.*

    Anyway, an excerpt:

    Dr. Küng:

    A decade and a half ago, a former colleague of yours among the younger progressive theologians at Vatican II told me of a friendly warning he had given you at the beginning of the Council’s second session. As this distinguished biblical scholar and proponent of Christian-Jewish reconciliation remembered those heady days, you had taken to driving around Rome in a fire-engine red Mercedes convertible, which your friend presumed had been one fruit of the commercial success of your book, The Council: Reform and Reunion.

    This automotive display struck your colleague as imprudent and unnecessarily self-advertising, given that some of your more adventurous opinions, and your talent for what would later be called the sound-bite, were already raising eyebrows and hackles in the Roman Curia. So, as the story was told me, your friend called you aside one day and said, using a French term you both understood, “Hans, you are becoming too evident.”


    As the man who single-handedly invented a new global personality-type—the dissident theologian as international media star—you were not, I take it, overly distressed by your friend’s warning. In 1963, you were already determined to cut a singular path for yourself, and you were media-savvy enough to know that a world press obsessed with the man-bites-dog story of the dissenting priest-theologian would give you a megaphone for your views.

    It's a fun read. Read the rest here: http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/04/an-open-letter-to-hans-kung

    * http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010/04/george-weigel-rips-hans-kung-on-pope.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 708 ✭✭✭zimovain


    Good read
    Detain or subpoena the pope for questioning in the child-rape scandal? You must be joking! All right then, try the only alternative formulation: declare the pope to be above and beyond all local and international laws, and immune when it comes to his personal and institutional responsibility for sheltering criminals. The joke there would be on us.




    The case for bringing the head of the Catholic hierarchy within the orbit of law is easily enough made. All it involves is the ability to look at a naked emperor and ask the question "Why?" Mentally remove his papal vestments and imagine him in a suit, and Joseph Ratzinger becomes just a Bavarian bureaucrat who has failed in the only task he was ever set—that of damage control. The question started small. In 2002, I happened to be on Hardball With Chris Matthews, discussing what the then attorney general of Massachusetts, Thomas Reilly, had termed a massive cover-up by the church of crimes against children by more than a thousand priests. I asked, why is the man who is prima facie responsible, Cardinal Bernard Law, not being questioned by the forces of law and order? Why is the church allowed to be judge in its own case and enabled in effect to run private courts where gross and evil offenders end up being "forgiven"? This point must have hung in the air a bit, and perhaps lodged in Cardinal Law's own mind, because in December of that year he left Boston just hours before state troopers arrived with a subpoena seeking his grand-jury testimony.



    Where did he go? To Rome, where he later voted in the election of Pope Benedict XVI and now presides over the beautiful church of Santa Maria Maggiore, as well as several Vatican subcommittees.
    In my submission, the current scandal passed the point of no return when the Vatican officially became a hideout for a man who was little better than a fugitive from justice. By sheltering such a salient offender at its very heart, the Vatican had invited the metastasis of the horror into its bosom and thence to its very head. It is obvious that Cardinal Law could not have made his escape or been given asylum without the approval of the then pontiff and of his most trusted deputy in the matter of child-rape damage control, then cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.


    Developments since that time have appalled even the most diehard papal apologists by their rapidity and scale. Not only do we have the letter that Cardinal Ratzinger sent to all Catholic bishops, enjoining them sternly to refer rape and molestation cases exclusively to his office. That would be bad enough in itself, since any person having knowledge of such a crime is legally obliged to report it to the police. But now, from Munich and Madison, Wis., and Oakland, come reports of the protection or indulgence of pederasts occurring on the pope's own watch, either during his period as bishop or his time as chief Vatican official for the defusing of the crisis. His apologists have done their best, but their Holy Father seems consistently to have been lenient or negligent with the criminals while reserving his severity only for those who complained about them.


    As this became horribly obvious, I telephoned a distinguished human-rights counsel in London, Geoffrey Robertson, and asked him if the law was powerless to intervene. Not at all, was his calm reply. If His Holiness tries to travel outside his own territory—as he proposes to travel to Britain in the fall—there is no more reason for him to feel safe than there was for the once magnificently uniformed General Pinochet, who had passed a Chilean law that he thought would guarantee his own immunity, but who was visited by British bobbies all the same. As I am writing this, plaintiffs are coming forward and strategies being readied (on both sides, since the Vatican itself scents the danger). In Kentucky, a suit is before the courts seeking the testimony of the pope himself. In Britain, it is being proposed that any one of the numberless possible plaintiffs might privately serve the pope with a writ if he shows his face. Also being considered are two international approaches, one to the European Court of Human Rights and another to the International Criminal Court. The ICC—which has already this year overruled immunity and indicted the gruesome president of Sudan—can be asked to rule on "crimes against humanity"; a legal definition that happens to include any consistent pattern of rape, or exploitation of children, that has been endorsed by any government.


    In Kentucky, the pope's lawyers have already signaled their intention to contest any such initiative by invoking "sovereign immunity," since His Holiness is also an alleged head of state. One wonders if sincere Catholics really desire to take refuge in this formulation. The so-called Vatican City, a political nonentity covering about 0.17 square miles of Rome, was created by Benito Mussolini in 1929 as part of his sweetheart deal between fascism and the papacy. It is the last survival of the political architecture of the Axis powers. Its bogus claim to statehood is now being used to give asylum to men like Cardinal Law.





    In this instance the church damns itself both ways. It invites our challenge—this is where the appeal to the European Court of Human Rights becomes relevant—to its standing as a state. And it calls attention to the repellent origins of that same state. Currently the Holy See has it both ways. For example, it is exempt from the annual State Department Human Rights Report precisely because it is not considered a state. (It maintains only observer status at the United Nations.) So, if it now does want to claim full statehood, it follows that it should receive the full attention of the State Department for its "lay" policies, and, for that matter, the full attention of the Justice Department as well. (First order of business—why on earth are we not demanding the extradition of Cardinal Law? And why is this grave matter being left to private individuals to pursue?)


    It is very difficult to resist the conclusion that this pope does not call for a serious investigation, or demand the removal of those responsible for a consistent pattern of child rape and its concealment, because to do so would be to imply the call for his own indictment. But meanwhile why are we expected to watch passively or wonder idly why the church does not clean its own filthy stable? A case in point: in 2001 Cardinal Castrillón of Colombia wrote from the Vatican to congratulate a French bishop who had risked jail rather than report an especially vicious rapist priest. Castrillón was invited this week to conduct a lavish Latin mass in Washington. The invitation was rightly withdrawn after a storm of outrage, but nobody asked why the cardinal could not be held as an accessory to an official Vatican policy that has exposed thousands of American children to rapists and sadists.



    Only this past March did the church shamefacedly and reluctantly agree that all child rapists should now be handed over to the civil authorities. Thanks a lot. That was a clear admission that gross illegality, and of the nastiest kind, has been its practice up until now. Euphemisms about sin and repentance are useless. This is a question of crime—organized crime, by the way—and therefore of punishment. Or perhaps you would rather see the shade of Mussolini thrown protectively over the Vicar of Christ? The ancient Roman symbol of the fish is rotting—and rotting from the head.

    Christopher Hitchens, a NEWSWEEK contributor, is a columnist for Vanity Fair and the author of God Is Not Great.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭eblistic


    Hmm? wrote: »
    Kung has been firmly trounced by George Weigel. I think it's only fair to give your readers the chance to read it. etc.

    Does he go beyond attacking the man and deal with the points themselves? The excerpt in your post won't convince too many to follow your link.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    eblistic wrote: »
    Does he go beyond attacking the man and deal with the points themselves? The excerpt in your post won't convince too many to follow your link.
    Agreed, totally.
    This is indicative of the intellectual and indeed humour value of those who vainly seek to limit the critical damage done to the already tawdry image of Ratzinger by this enormously important and impressive thinker.
    We can expect more of this kind of misleading prattle, from Hmm et al. I fear.
    Hans Kung really put a fatal torpedo in the already badly listing ship of Ratzinger's papacy, with that open, honest, simply and un-deniably stated letter to the bishops and ordinary members of that church.
    Ratzinger's legacy will be one of some but sad note. The pope who tried to cover up his own earlier mistakes as pitiless, humorless and particularly cruel chief boot-boy of the Curia, who opted, as pope, for sixteenth century church style, hard-nosed, denying and bullying tactics in the face of twenty first century information availability.
    He was doomed to fail and to fail very publicly, having failed first to realise one of the first rules of survival as the head of a large monopoly: "Never get suckered into blindly believing your own PR, especially when it flies in the face of logic and the opinions of most of your customers": He was not alone in believing that he could fool most of his followers, most of the time, through simple bully-boy tactics, as were also employed against the victims of priest rape and perhaps murder.

    We can expect to see many attacks on Hans Kung, as the semi-senile old celibates who run the committees begin to get word of the ground-swell of support for Kung's views and devastating letter. Let them. It will only hasten the over-due decline of a corrupt and quite in-human cult.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 Hmm?


    eblistic wrote: »
    Does he go beyond attacking the man and deal with the points themselves? The excerpt in your post won't convince too many to follow your link.

    Yeah he does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 Hmm?


    This is another refutation of Hans Kung's diatribe:

    http://insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2010/04/uh-thats-k%C3%BCng-catholic-church-not-roman-catholic-church.html

    A brief excerpt:

    Missed is the opportunity for a dialogue with Muslims in an atmosphere of mutual trust: Instead, in his ill-advised but symptomatic 2006 Regensburg lecture, Benedict caricatured Islam as a religion of violence...

    First, Benedict did not "caricature" anything, and Kung's statement shows just how pathetically low this megalomaniac will go to attack a man who is Mozart to Kung's Limp Bizkit. Secondly, please don't talk about Islam being a religion of violence; people tend to suddenly get hurt, kidnapped, and killed when you talk that way.

    Missed is the opportunity to help the people of Africa by allowing the use of birth control to fight overpopulation and condoms to fight the spread of HIV. Missed is the opportunity to make peace with modern science by clearly affirming the theory of evolution and accepting stem-cell research.

    Goodness, why stop there? Keep going: Missed is the opportunity to embrace homosexual sex, sex with animals, sex with Charlie Sheen, abortion anytime and anywhere, free condoms at every street corner, legalized prostitution, free meth and crack for young and old alike, polygamy, 24-hour "Desperate Housewives" marathons on all major networks, and license to listen to death metal at full blast all night long without fear of complaints from your neighbors.

    (As an aside from myself, Hmm?, Kung is either ignorant or mischevious here: He should know the Church accepts adult stem cell research. The Church objects to embryonic stem cell research. Does Kung not know this, or does he think you, the reader, doesn't know this?)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hmm, try to make your posts relevant to the thread, cut down on the day-glo colors and weird font sizes, and try engaging in a dialog, rather than posting somebody else's rants on topics that, frankly, are of zero interest to most if not all atheists and agnostics.

    thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Arcus Arrow


    There is a free performance of James X on Sunday 02/05/10 in the Holiday Inn Pearse Street Dublin 2 beside Trinity College at 8 pm. There is wheelchair access and it will also be signed (ISL) for the deaf....the venue seats around 180 so all are welcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Herodotus


    Hilarious story from the other side of the pond. I hear its making quite a ripple through the media since the photo was taken at the airport.

    The idea that the most vocal anti-gays tend to be closeted gays themselves, hardly comes as a surprise though, especially after seeing the movie Outrage recently.

    Everyone remember Ted Haggart?

    As taken from the Times
    A Baptist minister and leading anti-gay activist faced the ruination of his career yesterday after being photographed returning from a European holiday with a male prostitute.

    George Rekers, who sits on the board of a national organisation dedicated to changing the sexuality of gay men and lesbians, hired a companion from a website called Rentboy.com that offers clients a wide range of choices, from “rentboy” and “sugar daddy” to “masseur”.

    Dr Rekers said he took the prostitute on the ten-day trip last month to London and Madrid as a travel assistant after a stint in hospital. “I had surgery,” he said when approached this week by the Miami New Times. “I can’t lift luggage. That’s why I hired him.” Photographs of the pair emerging from Miami international airport last month show the older man pushing their suitcases on a trolley.

    Dr Rekers’s companion has been identified as a 20-year-old Puerto Rican whose entry on the Rentboy.com website gives his name as “Geo”. The site says that he is “sensual”, “wild” and “up for anything”. It also describes him as “versatile”, with a “nice ass”.

    Contacted this week by reporters in Miami, he said he was surprised by Dr Rekers’s claim to have realised he was a prostitute only halfway through their holiday.

    Geo’s profile on Rentboy.com is a bewildering mix of the banal and the specific. “I’m a college guy, masculine, educated, really easy going,” he says. “Great to get along with, can hold a conversation.” He lists stripping and go-go dancing among his talents. “I will do anything you say as long as you ask,” he promises.

    Dr Rekers, who co-founded America’s most powerful Christian lobbying group, has testified as an expert in favour of bans on gay adoption in Florida and Arkansas. He has also written numerous books on homosexuality as a curable condition, including Growing Up Straight: What Families Should Know about Homosexuality.

    Gay rights advocates called yesterday for him to step down from the board of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (Narth), for which he lectures across the world. He is also closely linked with the Washington-based Family Research Council, which he founded with Dr James Dobson in 1983.

    In an e-mailed response to questions about the European trip, he said: “My hero is Jesus Christ who loves even the culturally despised people, including sexual sinners and prostitutes. Like Jesus Christ, I deliberately spend time with sinners with the loving goal to try to help them.”

    Dr Rekers also told a blogger who reached him via Facebook: “If you talk with my travel assistant . . . you will find I spent a great deal of time sharing scientific information on the desirability of abandoning homosexual intercourse, and I shared the gospel of Jesus Christ with him in great detail.”

    In 2006 Ted Haggard resigned as a leader of the National Association of Evangelicals after a male prostitute claimed to have had sex with him for three years.

    Ray Ashburn, a California state senator with a long record of opposing gay rights, was arrested and charged with drunk-driving this year while leaving a gay nightclub in Sacramento. In 1988 Jimmy Swaggart, one of America’s most successful televangelists, was found to have had regular paid sex with prostitutes.

    Do as I say ...

    • The televangelist Pat Robertson caused outrage when he said that the Haiti earthquake was caused by “a pact to the Devil” sworn by Haitians when they became independent of French rule
    • Matt Baker, a Texan minister, was convicted of faking his wife’s suicide in 2009 so that he could have a relationship with a member of his church
    • Kent Hovind, a creationist minister with his own dinosaur theme park in Florida, was sentenced to ten years in jail for falsely declaring bankruptcy and threatening investigators in 2006 Hovind paid employees in cash, claiming that they were all workers of God and therefore exempt from taxes
    • The TV minister Jim Bakker shocked viewers of his television series when it emerged that he had had an affair with a secretary, paying her off with church funds. He was jailed in 1989 for fraud after paying himself and his wife, Tammy Faye, below, millions of dollars in church funds and concocting a timeshare scam at his theme park in South Carolina


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    ^^ Merged the above with this thread.
    It already appeared somewhere but I can't find it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,765 ✭✭✭✭Busi_Girl08


    It was in After Hours, I think.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    It was in After Hours, I think.
    I'd never have seen it there! Twas in A&A already.


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