Should Air Rifle Be considered firearms?

Sparks · 30-11-2014 10:30pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Simply said,if we want to have more liberal firearms laws here,we have to put in more serious consequences for their misuse.

We already have those in law. For example, lets say some lovely young disadvantaged chap holds up a post office with an airsoft replica. The legal charge he faces is the same as if it had been a real firearm and not a replica of one. Absolutely no difference in the maximum imposable sentence. And the maximum sentence for possession with intent to endanger life is life in prison and any fine the court cares to levy.

The problem's not that the law hasn't teeth, it's got so many it looks like an anglerfish; that the courts choose not to bite down with those teeth isn't going to be fixed by stapling more incisors into the jaws...

The logical point is; if I can be done today for doing something illegal with a replica just as much as if I used a real firearm, then why is there such a need to keep more airguns in the licencing net instead of just having age limits and registration or something similar? It's just garda manhours, our time and money, economic restrictions on dealers and the sport, and an increased number of firearms in the population, all for no plausible gain.

bpb101 · 30-11-2014 10:42pm

Sparks wrote: »

For example, lets say some lovely young disadvantaged chap holds up a post office with an airsoft replica.

love the line :L:pac:

recipio · 01-12-2014 12:55pm

In all other EU countries airguns are treated as commodities that its citizens can enjoy.In the UK there is a thriving airgun scene and that's one reason why the UK is a world leader in PCP development - its citizens can actually buy its products.
Its human nature to accumulate airguns if you like them - some of the guys on the BBS forum have 50 + in their collection.At £1500 for a top end PCP however most of us would not go that route !
Its not rocket science to change the legislation - vet the person and set reasonable power limits, say 6 to 30 ft/lbs
Do countries like Holland with no power limits have airgun crime ? Not at all.

Grizzly 45 · 01-12-2014 6:03pm

recipio wrote: »

Do countries like Holland with no power limits have airgun crime ? Not at all.

But they do have;
An armed police force,who take firearms misuse pretty seriously.

An effective judical system that tends to bang up offenders in virtually ,compared to our dungeons,a utter five star hotel that would make the average hang and flog em taxpayer here drop dead from a heart attack if they had to fork out for it but actually rehabilitates people into society.

A totally different mindset of a society to crime and personal freedom.I mean if you can grow your own pot and its a respectabletax paying job that requires a liscense to be a dominatrix[Or so I'm told!!:eek:]

And an absoutely hideously difficult procedure to get live firearms and virtually no hunting whatsoever.

recipio · 01-12-2014 8:39pm

Thank God for countries like Holland

Of course there are bad apples in every country but my point was that Dutch society is not collapsing in a country that has virtually no limits on airgun ownership - just a requirement that they don't look like military weapons.

minktrapper · 01-12-2014 9:06pm

What about the loss of revenue to the exchequer.

Sparks · 01-12-2014 9:24pm

minktrapper wrote: »

What about the loss of revenue to the exchequer.

What loss? Between VAT and a dozen other taxes, an increase in airgun sales once they're off-ticket (especially paintball) would more than exceed the loss from a few licence fees that come in once every three years and costs a few hours of garda time to process anyway. You'd see a net increase in the exchequer take for the year.

minktrapper · 01-12-2014 9:27pm

Probably.

bpb101 · 01-12-2014 10:00pm

minktrapper wrote: »

What about the loss of revenue to the exchequer.

Sparks wrote: »

What loss? Between VAT and a dozen other taxes, an increase in airgun sales once they're off-ticket (especially paintball) would more than exceed the loss from a few licence fees that come in once every three years and costs a few hours of garda time to process anyway. You'd see a net increase in the exchequer take for the year.

sparks has it spot on , The sales of airguns would go through the roof. Id say they sell 50,000 at least in 3 years. Thats a lot of vat and then the vat on the rounds, not to mention the tax on rfd, they might hire more staff as well.
new dealers setting up to specialize in airguns. Ranges set up because of the demand = construction section increase.

they may lose 25 euros a year from air rifles licensee per license , but if every airgun users bought an extra 3 boxes of rounds a year , that money would find its way back into the economy (and that presumes no new airguns sales )

minktrapper · 01-12-2014 10:40pm

Great that we got that out in the open.

Grizzly 45 · 02-12-2014 1:06am

recipio wrote: »

just a requirement that they don't look like military weapons.

The Dutch dont like any type of firearms military or civillian.End of!
Mega PITA to get anything over there legally that is.

Could have done an exellent cartoon of a gunowner walking around Amsterdam with its very liberal drug laws ,and sexual fetishes aplenty asking a cop where is the nearest gun shop?
"A GUN shop???What kind of sick perverted degenerate are you?" would be the reply.:D

recipio · 02-12-2014 7:24pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Dutch dont like any type of firearms military or civillian.End of!
Mega PITA to get anything over there legally that is.:D

But airguns are not firearms

hathcock · 02-12-2014 7:28pm

bpb101 wrote: »

I dont know if this has ever been discussed here. As im sure everybody knows, Air rifles require a normal firearms licenses. And anything over 1 Joule.
However many countries completely differ. In The uk , anybody can go in and pick up a air rifles, provided it is under 12ft.lb (16 Joules ) for rifles and for pistols, 6ft.lb(8 Joules) Apparently the shop must be a rfd.

With all this firearms change going on , should the way air Rifles/Pistols be changed. I know they are of course dangerous , dont get me wrong. But since the gardas are comparing ireland to other countries firearms law and saying they have this law so we should too , should it not work the other way

Making Airguns more easily available would allow the sport to grow a lot easier imo

Anyways , Thoughts .

You're coming at it from the wrong angle in my view,guns and that includes airguns are not in and of themselves dangerous,in fact being an inanimate object it could be argued that a gun is quite harmless,that is the case until of course some dangerous person picks it up.Research by a retired jersey island policeman concluded that firearms licencing produces no benifits of any kind and does'nt prevent a single crime,criminals can quite easily get hold of a gun,and needless to say only law abiding people licence guns anyway.

Zxthinger · 03-12-2014 2:07am

minktrapper wrote: »

Great that we got that out in the open.

And now is the time to propose this easing of legislation pertaining to air rifles etc to the minster. We might not get another chance!

Grizzly 45 · 03-12-2014 10:39pm

recipio wrote: »

But airguns are not firearms

Precisely...But try telling that to our paranoid police force and political denisens who want us to have nothing more dangerous than a feather duster.:rolleyes:

recipio · 05-12-2014 3:16pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Precisely...But try telling that to our paranoid police force and political denisens who want us to have nothing more dangerous than a feather duster.:rolleyes:

Agreed. However I suspect that there is a quiet agreement somewhere to keep the ROI and NI on an equal footing. Imagine if we had a 12 ft/lb rule as in the UK. With an open border NI would have to change its legislation as well.?

nastros · 05-12-2014 3:30pm

recipio wrote: »

Agreed. However I suspect that there is a quiet agreement somewhere to keep the ROI and NI on an equal footing. Imagine if we had a 12 ft/lb rule as in the UK. With an open border NI would have to change its legislation as well.?

But if we are going that route we should be allowed centre fire pistols and the right to reload as they do in the North.

bpb101 · 05-12-2014 3:37pm

nastros wrote: »

But if we are going that route we should be allowed centre fire pistols and the right to reload as they do in the North.

yes of course ,we should

recipio · 05-12-2014 7:48pm

nastros wrote: »

But if we are going that route we should be allowed centre fire pistols and the right to reload as they do in the North.

We should , in theory anyway. However, airguns are far less lethal and that is why they off ticket in every other EU country.Who holds up a security van with a 12 ft/lb air rifle ?

Zxthinger · 08-12-2014 11:18pm

When did northern Ireland introduce air rifles controls into their firearms legislation.
I shouldn't think that deregulation of of air arms would need to occur on both sides as it's evident from any trip to NI that crossbows remain deregulation.

I personally wouldn't like to see total deregulation of low powered air arms as there are just too many nut bags in the republic and giving them sudden and unexpected freedom and access to air arms now after years of treating them like monkeys, would surely end in tears!
A better system would allow an approved applicant buy and own as many air arms as liked as long as they were secured and registered with a government body!
At a minimum they need to be removed from the storage requirement's SI. Its laughable to think that 3 low power air rifles put you on an equal footing with an AR15. Lol
I have to say it again! Now might be or only chance to get some restbit for these oppressive rules!

Sparks · 08-12-2014 11:25pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

I personally wouldn't like to see total deregulation of low powered air arms as there are just too many nut bags in the republic

So:

compared to the rest of the EU? I mean, we're bad, but we hardly have the highest density of nutters in europe...
...and if we did, why do we openly sell hurleys, cars, knives, medication, hammers, axes, slashhooks, bows, boxing gloves, rat poison and string?
Why isn't the rest of the EU on fire killing each other with airguns, given that they have far far looser regulations?
Who said we had to sell them like cornflakes? Hike the 1 joule limit to 16 and you still have a regulatory framework in place already, it's just different to the one we use for cartridge-based firearms.

recipio · 09-12-2014 12:29am

The idea that there would be a wave of air rifle crime following deregulation is simply not backed by any facts. In fact it feeds the paranoia of the grey suits who make this legislation most of whom wouldn't know a PCP from a springer or gas ram.
I wouldn't be against a general vetting of anybody buying their first airgun or a token licence fee but why can't we just be allowed to trade in low power airguns like every other EU country. ?

bpb101 · 09-12-2014 12:54am

recipio wrote: »

The idea that we are there would be a wave of air rifle crime following deregulation is simply not backed by any facts. In fact it feeds the paranoia of the grey suits who make this legislation most of whom wouldn't know a PCP from a springer or gas ram.
I wouldn't be against a general vetting of anybody buying their first airgun or a token licence fee but why can't we just be allowed to trade in low power airguns like every other EU country. ?

like yeah , trowing air guns out like cornflakes is not a good idea
Simple things would prevent crime

Only rdf can sell them so effectively there is something for the business to lose
18 years +
You must have a fixed abode
in store background check done by rfd( i dont see how this would be to hard)

If somebody shots a dog or cat or other domestic animal or use them for injurying an animal - jail time - im not talking about rat or vermin killing

They must be treated as a firearm. ie, same jail time
no carrying them over your shoulder down Grafton st

Sparks · 09-12-2014 12:31pm

bpb101, if you raise the 1J limit in the Act to 16J, then airguns and paintball markers would just fall into the same regulations as airsoft are in now. They wouldn't fall into an unregulated state. And the regulations for airsoft are pretty much what you're talking about, bar the background check, which the AGS wouldn't do for commercial businesses like that (seriously, it took a while for the garda vetting crowd to even agree to vet people who work with kids - and that wasn't laziness, there are serious data protection issues in the EU to worry about).

Also, if someone abuses an airsoft (or any airgun/paintball marker if you raised that limit), there are already laws covering that. You point an airsoft at someone and rob them, you get charged as though it was a real gun. Whether or not it was real doesn't matter for the court, only whether or not the person you pointed it at believed it to be real. You shoot an animal with one, you get done for animal cruelty. You carry one in a public place, you get lifted by half a dozen different laws.

And all that is in place today.

All that's required is to add one digit (a 6) in the right place in section one of the act.

bpb101 · 10-12-2014 4:39pm

Sparks wrote: »

bpb101, if you raise the 1J limit in the Act to 16J, then airguns and paintball markers would just fall into the same regulations as airsoft are in now. They wouldn't fall into an unregulated state. And the regulations for airsoft are pretty much what you're talking about, bar the background check, which the AGS wouldn't do for commercial businesses like that (seriously, it took a while for the garda vetting crowd to even agree to vet people who work with kids - and that wasn't laziness, there are serious data protection issues in the EU to worry about).

Also, if someone abuses an airsoft (or any airgun/paintball marker if you raised that limit), there are already laws covering that. You point an airsoft at someone and rob them, you get charged as though it was a real gun. Whether or not it was real doesn't matter for the court, only whether or not the person you pointed it at believed it to be real. You shoot an animal with one, you get done for animal cruelty. You carry one in a public place, you get lifted by half a dozen different laws.

And all that is in place today.

All that's required is to add one digit (a 6) in the right place in section one of the act.

Oh yeah , i know there would be auto law in places as they would be the same as airsoft guns(legally)

There would have to be certain new laws though as there would have to be a limit of how powerfully air propelled projectiles can be fired at another person. (ie how powerfully can airsoft guns be)
if it was a simple saying 16 joules is now the max, would it not be a case of it would be legal to shot people with air rifles, I know that it would be considered assault if it wasn't expected (ie in public) but at a airsoft skirmish for example

As for the background checks , yeah , your right, ags wouldnt allow that.

Sparks · 10-12-2014 4:46pm

bpb101 wrote: »

if it was a simple saying 16 joules is now the max, would it not be a case of it would be legal to shot people with air rifles, I know that it would be considered assault if it wasn't expected (ie in public) but at a airsoft skirmish for example

No, it'd still be assault if you used an air rifle (airsoft doesn't fire lead, and neither do paintball markers - which are usually around 16J). You show up on an airsoft field, and the other players are expecting you to have an airsoft replica, not a daisy break-barrel .22 air rifle. You use one of them, it'd be the same as if you showed up with a hurley and used that on the other players. They have a certain reasonable expectation that they're going to play airsoft and get hit with 6mm plastic balls, nothing else. You'd be done for assault, plain and simple.

Deaf git · 12-12-2014 8:14pm

Air Rifles are very different to airsoft in that they have a rifled barrel. Even if the power limits for airsoft were increased we wouldn't automatically have air rifles per se. But let's say common sense prevailed and air rifles were no longer classed as a firearm and made available in a controlled fashion, how long would it take for
(A) The obligatory semi hysterical idiot to screech 'Won't someone think of the children'
(B) A self professed expert to claim that air rifles like the FX resemble military weapons and are more dangerous because they are black.
(C) Some politician seeking attention whinges about 'gun culture' and maybe reverts to point (A)

Or maybe I might be pleasantly surprised.

Sparks · 12-12-2014 8:20pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Air Rifles are very different to airsoft in that they have a rifled barrel.

And in that airsoft fire 6mm hollow plastic pellets at 1 joule muzzle energy in a fully automatic mode, while air rifles shoot 4.5mm solid lead pellets at 7.5 joules muzzle energy (or higher) in a single-shot mode... and about a dozen other rather important points too

Even if the power limits for airsoft were increased we wouldn't automatically have air rifles per se.

No, but that's not what's being discussed. We're talking about raising the muzzle energy limit for the regulatory framework currently occupied only by airsoft and toy guns so that it is also occupied by air rifles, air pistols, and paintball markers.

how long would it take for
(A) The obligatory semi hysterical idiot to screech 'Won't someone think of the children'
(B) A self professed expert to claim that air rifles like the FX resemble military weapons and are more dangerous because they are black.
(C) Some politician seeking attention whinges about 'gun culture' and maybe reverts to point (A)

Depends on what's in the news at the time usually...

Zxthinger · 12-12-2014 10:41pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Air Rifles are very different to airsoft in that they have a rifled barrel. Even if the power limits for airsoft were increased we wouldn't automatically have air rifles per se. But let's say common sense prevailed and air rifles were no longer classed as a firearm and made available in a controlled fashion, how long would it take for
(A) The obligatory semi hysterical idiot to screech 'Won't someone think of the children'
(B) A self professed expert to claim that air rifles like the FX resemble military weapons and are more dangerous because they are black.
(C) Some politician seeking attention whinges about 'gun culture' and maybe reverts to point (A)

Or maybe I might be pleasantly surprised.

All hypothetical outcomes that will never happen! Irish government will ban Xmas crackers next!
The only relief you might get is a limited & defined exemption from storage SI and a lifetime/10 Year licence per gun or perhaps per person ! Thats where the roll out stops! They are never going to accept free and unrestricted access to air rifles. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!..

Sparks · 12-12-2014 11:23pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

They are never going to accept free and unrestricted access to air rifles. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!..

What everyone was saying up until 2004 wrote:

They are never going to accept pistols. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!

What everyone was saying up until 2006 wrote:

They are never going to accept shooting bodies having an official relationship with the Minister. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!

What everyone was saying up until 2007 wrote:

They are never going to accept reloading. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!

There's an old saying about how those saying something is utterly impossible should be careful not to be run over from behind by those doing it.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Should Air Rifle Be considered firearms?

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