The effects of the M20 on Cork and Limerick

road_high · 30-03-2017 10:02pm #1

pigtown wrote: »

What type of gold plated services?

Major hospital specialised services, university courses etc...do we really need to replicate specialised heart surgery for example in UCH as well as in Limerick regional when they'll be just an hour apart? I'm just playing devils advocate and raising the potential issue people like Noonan may have...

pigtown · 30-03-2017 10:27pm

Good point. Although it could be the reverse with people arguing that as Limerick is an hour from both Cork and Galway then it should become the main focus of investment outside of Dublin. I'd be happy with that as a Limerickman but again this should all be factored into the decision to build and also it should be made known to the public. Maybe people would be happy with the status-quo if they knew this was on the cards.

Reputable Rog · 30-03-2017 10:33pm

road_high wrote: »

Major hospital specialised services, university courses etc...do we really need to replicate specialised heart surgery for example in UCH as well as in Limerick regional when they'll be just an hour apart? I'm just playing devils advocate and raising the potential issue people like Noonan may have...

Currently if it's anything complex a patient will be transferred to Cork or Galway anyway, the M20 won't change that.

Cookiemunster · 30-03-2017 11:13pm

road_high wrote: »

Major hospital specialised services, university courses etc...do we really need to replicate specialised heart surgery for example in UCH as well as in Limerick regional when they'll be just an hour apart? I'm just playing devils advocate and raising the potential issue people like Noonan may have...

Why would the M20 mean UL losing courses to UCC? It's not going to lose any to UCG when he M18 is opened. Nor is it losing hospital services to UHG.
Hospital services are as much about population density as it is about distance. It's catchment area is Limerick, Clare and North Tipp. Around 350,000 people. And as already pointed out patients who need specialist heart ot neural treatment are already airlifted to Cork or Galway.

marno21 · 31-03-2017 12:21am

It'll just mean that people in Charleville can shave 10 minutes off their trip to UHL to enjoy a multi hour wait in the A&E department

Calina · 31-03-2017 5:49am

marno21 wrote: »

It'll just mean that people in Charleville can shave 10 minutes off their trip to UHL to enjoy a multi hour wait in the A&E department

Actually, that would be a terrific improvement. Charleville to Limerick os ca 30 minutes atm.

Pretty sure the drive to Cork would be even more of an improvement.

boardsuser1 · 31-03-2017 9:11am

marno21 wrote: »

It'll just mean that people in Charleville can shave 10 minutes off their trip to UHL to enjoy a multi hour wait in the A&E department

Would Charleville not be in the middle of the 2?

Worked with a guy last year living there and he said it's the same distance either way?

Calina · 31-03-2017 9:15am

KC161 wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

It'll just mean that people in Charleville can shave 10 minutes off their trip to UHL to enjoy a multi hour wait in the A&E department

Would Charleville not be in the middle of the 2?

Worked with a guy last year living there and he said it's the same distance either way?

23 miles to Limerick versus 37 to Cork. Arguably more of the road to Limerick is better too.

boardsuser1 · 31-03-2017 9:16am

Calina wrote: »

23 miles to Limerick versus 37 to Cork. Arguably more of the road to Limerick is better too.

That's my curiosity satisfied.

zulutango · 31-03-2017 10:15am

The M20, if built, will fundamentally alter the relationship between Cork and Limerick by significantly reducing the journey time between the cities. It could be fantastic for both, or it could serve one city more than the other, perhaps massively more than the other. It could indeed be to the detriment to one of the cities. Has it been studied at all?

Isambard · 31-03-2017 10:30am

I don't really think that would be the case. The M20 would primarily facilitate people travelling into one or other City, rather than from one to the other (imo).

It would also enable the people of it's hinterland to access the motorway network, either at Cork or Limerick , to travel further afield reducing their reliance on the lethal N73

pigtown · 31-03-2017 10:35am

Isambard wrote: »

I don't really think that would be the case. The M20 would primarily facilitate people travelling into one or other City, rather than from one to the other (imo).

It would also enable the people of it's hinterland to access the motorway network, either at Cork or Limerick , to travel further afield reducing their reliance on the lethal N73

And it's reasonable to assume that but if it's costing that much and is going to forever change the dynamics of the region then what people think just isn't good enough. No offence but we need more than opinions.

Isambard · 31-03-2017 10:53am

would you have preferred that I stated that was a definite fact?
It seems to me people are grasping for reasons not to built this road and it is vital to us in North Cork. All I have is my opinion

31-03-2017 11:13am

pigtown wrote: »

Good point. Although it could be the reverse with people arguing that as Limerick is an hour from both Cork and Galway then it should become the main focus of investment outside of Dublin. I'd be happy with that as a Limerickman but again this should all be factored into the decision to build and also it should be made known to the public. Maybe people would be happy with the status-quo if they knew this was on the cards.

Considering Galway is seen as a centre of excellence for counties like Mayo Roscommon Sligo Leitrim & Donegal it would not be downgraded. With Cork been so close to Limerick after the M20, i can only see Limerick losing out and not just on healthcare services.

marno21 · 31-03-2017 11:25am

Limerick and Cork hospitals are both under severe pressure. Cutting services is out of the question

Anyway we are trying to expand our cities and enhance them. Imagine telling a Limerick resident they can't get sorted in Limerick but they can drive on the M20 to Cork, but wait they have no car.

pigtown · 31-03-2017 11:26am

Isambard wrote: »

would you have preferred that I stated that was a definite fact?
It seems to me people are grasping for reasons not to built this road and it is vital to us in North Cork. All I have is my opinion

Nope, just making the point that it's ridiculous for people in authority and influence, such as the County Councils or the Chambers of Commerce, to advocate this road when nobody (that I'm aware of) knows how it is likely to affect the economy.

And I'm not looking for reasons for it not to be built, I'm looking for facts and figures (or very good estimates). I don't think this is an unreasonable thing to ask for. It's not like we have a spare billion euro lying around that we can afford to potentially build the wrong thing.

And I don't expect you to have any figures. All you have is your opinion, all I have is my opinion, but opinions aren't enough.

Deleted User wrote: »

Considering Galway is seen as a centre of excellence for counties like Mayo Roscommon Sligo Leitrim & Donegal it would not be downgraded. With Cork been so close to Limerick after the M20, i can only see Limerick losing out and not just on healthcare services.

Yeah you could be right. I was just using it as an example of what might happen.

pigtown · 31-03-2017 11:28am

marno21 wrote: »

Limerick and Cork hospitals are both under severe pressure. Cutting services is out of the question

Anyway we are trying to expand our cities and enhance them. Imagine telling a Limerick resident they can't get sorted in Limerick but they can drive on the M20 to Cork, but wait they have no car.

This is another thing, could a train line be built parallel to the road from Limerick to Charleville? We'll never again have such an opportunity to provide a direct train between the two cities.

Cookiemunster · 31-03-2017 11:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

Considering Galway is seen as a centre of excellence for counties like Mayo Roscommon Sligo Leitrim & Donegal it would not be downgraded. With Cork been so close to Limerick after the M20, i can only see Limerick losing out and not just on healthcare services.

As I pointed out earlier Limerick is a major population center and UHL is situated in a city of 95,000 (larger than Galway) and has a catchment area of 350,000 people.
Those 4 counties have a total population of 320,000. The situation is not in anyway similar. Cork is already close to Limerick and I don't see the M20 making much of a difference.

EDIT missed Mayo on the list. That brings it to 450,000, but with no major population center, so my point still stands.

Baldilocks · 31-03-2017 11:56am

Given that funding was found to build a motorway from Gort to Tuam, and from Shannon to Gort, it's very hard to justify NOT building a road from Cork to Limerick. The motorway from Dublin to Belfast did not decimate Dundalk/Drogheda, the motorway from Dublin, to Cork/Limerick did not cause Kildare/Cashel/Mitchelstown to cease to exist, in fact there is signifcant evidence that they did well from road, Gort has also improved since it got bypassed. All of these locations were unclogged and became free to do what they are supposed to - serve their communities.
Secondly, as many have stated, the M20 is not just about the locations at either end of the Motorway. It would serve many thousands who live in between both cities, and it would be of benefit to many living Kerry, the most logical route, to Dublin from Killarney would be to head to Mallow, and then pick up the M20, and then M7.
Thirdly, the current road is NOT fit for purpose. There are various figures quoted for the cost of a fatal accident to the economy, varying from €2M to €70M. If we take a low-ish figure in this range, say €5M, It's rare that a month passes without a serious accident on this road, one that results in a section of the road being closed for several hours. So that's €60m/yr. If the road costs €1000M, then the payback to the economy from serious accidents , will take less than 17 yrs. Anything that has a return of greater than 5% is a good investment. And this doesn't include the benefits of improved trade, tourism.
All that said, Cork airport is likely to suffer, it has little or no room to expand, it is poorly located with regard to prevailing winds (another triumph of brown envelopes over practicality) the runway is unlikely to be extended (being on the top of hill is not helpful), so with Shannon having the much better runway and location and being ~1hr away on a motorway, it will retain the transatlantic flights and likely be the airport of note in the region. Corkonians may grimace, but as one of them, I'll happily drive an easy hr on a good road for a better service.

Calina · 31-03-2017 11:58am

pigtown wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

Limerick and Cork hospitals are both under severe pressure. Cutting services is out of the question

Anyway we are trying to expand our cities and enhance them. Imagine telling a Limerick resident they can't get sorted in Limerick but they can drive on the M20 to Cork, but wait they have no car.

This is another thing, could a train line be built parallel to the road from Limerick to Charleville? We'll never again have such an opportunity to provide a direct train between the two cities.

I dont think it is cost effective to do so unless as part of a wider rail initiative at national level. Bus shoukd be under 55 minutes if it is running on m20

Reputable Rog · 31-03-2017 3:20pm

Baldilocks wrote: »

All that said, Cork airport is likely to suffer, it has little or no room to expand, it is poorly located with regard to prevailing winds (another triumph of brown envelopes over practicality) the runway is unlikely to be extended (being on the top of hill is not helpful), so with Shannon having the much better runway and location and being ~1hr away on a motorway, it will retain the transatlantic flights and likely be the airport of note in the region. Corkonians may grimace, but as one of them, I'll happily drive an easy hr on a good road for a better service.

Unlikely to suffer, Shannon is downgrading itself. Cork Airport have plenty of room for expansion and are building new facilities this year to facilitate new security facilities.
They don't want to extend the runway as they feel it's sufficient for future needs.
The long term plan for the airport includes expansion of airside facilities and a new bus station.

Cookiemunster · 31-03-2017 4:01pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Unlikely to suffer, Shannon is downgrading itself. Cork Airport have plenty of room for expansion and are building new facilities this year to facilitate new security facilities.
They don't want to extend the runway as they feel it's sufficient for future needs.
The long term plan for the airport includes expansion of airside facilities and a new bus station.

I'm pretty sure that this just means that they'll no longer be a 24/365 diversion option. With the runway overlay that won't be possible anyway. They'll still be handling T/A during the day. Flexible Category 9 is what they're calling it.

Isambard · 31-03-2017 4:35pm

pigtown wrote: »

Nope, just making the point that it's ridiculous for people in authority and influence, such as the County Councils or the Chambers of Commerce, to advocate this road when nobody (that I'm aware of) knows how it is likely to affect the economy.

And I'm not looking for reasons for it not to be built, I'm looking for facts and figures (or very good estimates). I don't think this is an unreasonable thing to ask for. It's not like we have a spare billion euro lying around that we can afford to potentially build the wrong thing.

And I don't expect you to have any figures. All you have is your opinion, all I have is my opinion, but opinions aren't enough.

Yeah you could be right. I was just using it as an example of what might happen.

How it affects the economy is of little importance compared to how much it affects the people who get killed on the N20 and their families.

zulutango · 31-03-2017 4:51pm

Isambard wrote: »

How it affects the economy is of little importance compared to how much it affects the people who get killed on the N20 and their families.

Yes, but you need not necessarily build a motorway to make the N20 much safer.

JCX BXC · 31-03-2017 5:10pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Unlikely to suffer, Shannon is downgrading itself. Cork Airport have plenty of room for expansion and are building new facilities this year to facilitate new security facilities.
They don't want to extend the runway as they feel it's sufficient for future needs.
The long term plan for the airport includes expansion of airside facilities and a new bus station.

That's quite comical.

That post is clearly not through any rose tinted glasses

Baldilocks · 31-03-2017 6:53pm

unfortunately the only thing that will get the M20 built is the economic argument.
For some reason, we refuse to use good engineering to remove accident blackspots, preferring to throw up a few signs and park a camera van there instead.

With regard to Cork getting proper transatlantic flights, the runway is not long enough to take a fully loaded 4 engine aircraft. Norwegian will be using a twin engine (737, not the bog standard effort granted), and Wow will be going via Iceland. Shannon is better located for most of the west coast, and with good road connections to the north and south, it's the obvious choice. That said, the likely outcome is that Dublin will come out on top in the end - all roads lead to Dublin

Geogregor · 01-04-2017 1:38am

With regard to Cork getting proper transatlantic flights, the runway is not long enough to take a fully loaded 4 engine aircraft.

Four engine planes are becoming thing of the past anyway...

BlinkingLights · 01-04-2017 12:27pm

This Cork vs Shannon airport thing turns into a bit of a farce.

Cork Airport is basically in Cork City with a catchment in its immediate vacinity (15 mins) of several hundred thousand. It's not going anywhere and is currently significantly busier than Shannon.

Shannon may well be a handy route for cheap transatlantic but it's not going to replace Cork for UK and European flights - there are more options out of Cork and a very large number of people can be at Cork Airport in a short taxi trip for 10-15 Euro

It's a slick, modern facility they gets you to where you want to go without fuss. That's always going to have a strong appeal.

I actually find this sniping at Cork Airport on these threads just derails them.

JCX BXC · 01-04-2017 12:44pm

It's a two way street, for some reason Shannon is painted as a shed in the middle of a field hours from nowhere.

The motorway won't have any great effect on either, maybe strengthening eachothers markets.

The motorway will have many many effects on both cities, the two airports are an insignificant part of this. The only reason they seem to come into the equation is for political reasons.

zulutango · 01-04-2017 1:24pm

That's not really true. Both Cork and Shannon have been impacted by the construction of the M7 and M8. It's very naive to suggest they wouldn't be impacted by a major infratstructural project like the M20 also. It's just not clear what those impacts might be.

JCX BXC · 01-04-2017 1:29pm

zulutango wrote: »

That's not really true. Both Cork and Shannon have been impacted by the construction of the M7 and M8. It's very naive to suggest they wouldn't be impacted by a major infratstructural project like the M20 also. It's just not clear what those impacts might be.

Because Dublin offers a far superior route network than the two airports combined!

Cookiemunster · 01-04-2017 1:36pm

zulutango wrote: »

That's not really true. Both Cork and Shannon have been impacted by the construction of the M7 and M8. It's very naive to suggest they wouldn't be impacted by a major infratstructural project like the M20 also. It's just not clear what those impacts might be.

Cork airport is on the wrong side of Cork. The Cork NRR would need to be built as well as the M20 to have a significant enough impact on journey time to the airport to make people change from Shannon.

Calina · 01-04-2017 1:40pm

To be honest, what the M20 could do would be perhaps to enable Cork and Shannon to create a route network that rivaled Dublin between them. I live in central Europe and my closest airport has something like six flights a week to Dublin. I need to get down to somewhere near the N20 and to be honest, I really wouldn't care whether I was flying into Cork or Shannon so long as I didn't have to go into Dublin.

Right now iirc, Shannon connects into Heathrow with a bunch of holiday destinations, and Cork connects into Heathrow and Amsterdam (actually it's just occurred to me I think Shannon might have a Frankfurt flight too - must check).

In short, neither of the two airports fly to enough European hubs. The M20 could take quite a lot of traffic from Dublin if the two airports were prepared to look things in that light. To do that, you'd really need a separate airport authority for those two airports, completely separate to Dublin, and a key performance indicator of growing both airports rather than trying to take chops out of each other. Their competition is Dublin. But this is possible and enabled by the M20.

boardsuser1 · 01-04-2017 1:49pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Cork airport is on the wrong side of Cork. The Cork NRR would need to be built as well as the M20 to have a significant enough impact on journey time to the airport to make people change from Shannon.

At this stage i'd nearly say not in my lifetime and i'm in my 30's.

zulutango · 01-04-2017 1:49pm

JCX BXC wrote:

Because Dublin offers a far superior route network than the two airports combined!

The motorway has greatly increased the catchment of Dublin airport and that's enabled the expansion of its network.

zulutango · 01-04-2017 1:53pm

Cookiemunster wrote:

Cork airport is on the wrong side of Cork. The Cork NRR would need to be built as well as the M20 to have a significant enough impact on journey time to the airport to make people change from Shannon.

I think the M20 is more likely to benefit Shannon.

marno21 · 01-04-2017 3:04pm

I have created this thread to facilitate the ongoing discussion on the M20 thread about how the M20 will effect services in Cork and Limerick.

Please continue discussion here. Please don't go too far off topic (talking about runway lengths at airports etc)

JCX BXC · 01-04-2017 5:19pm

Shannon is on the wrong side of Limerick no more than Cork is on the wrong side of Cork.

Although Shannon is better connected to the motorway and is less liable to peak traffic, the two airports will complement each other more than hurt eachother.

BlinkingLights · 01-04-2017 6:19pm

My major concern is that the SRR N40 is hitting 100,000 vehicles a day and there's no prospect of really pushing further car traffic into Cork City centre anyway.

I would just hope the money doesn't get sloshed on the M20 instead of decent mass transit systems in Cork City and Limerick.

If you'd something like a tramway from Carrigaline to Ballincollig via the City Centre taking in Douglas, Blackrock and up quays, past UCC,CIT, CUH, Wilton, Bishopstown, etc.. and up the main Street of Ballincollig with multiple stops, you'd take huge numbers of cars off the road and greatly lessen the need for a major road project as well as getting carbon emissions and car dependency

Without a big transit project, the docklands and other dense city centre projects will struggle to get enough staff into the city centre.

Cork (and Limerick) have an opportunity to not repeat the mistakes made in Dublin.

JCX BXC · 01-04-2017 6:58pm

If anything, both Cork and Limerick will have make much worse 'mistakes' than Dublin as funds will never be focused there.

Isambard · 02-04-2017 8:58am

BlinkingLights wrote: »

My major concern is that the SRR N40 is hitting 100,000 vehicles a day and there's no prospect of really pushing further car traffic into Cork City centre anyway.

I would just hope the money doesn't get sloshed on the M20 instead of decent mass transit systems in Cork City and Limerick.

If you'd something like a tramway from Carrigaline to Ballincollig via the City Centre taking in Douglas, Blackrock and up quays, past UCC,CIT, CUH, Wilton, Bishopstown, etc.. and up the main Street of Ballincollig with multiple stops, you'd take huge numbers of cars off the road and greatly lessen the need for a major road project as well as getting carbon emissions and car dependency

Without a big transit project, the docklands and other dense city centre projects will struggle to get enough staff into the city centre.

Cork (and Limerick) have an opportunity to not repeat the mistakes made in Dublin.

WIBN?

That of course would be an effect of not having the M20 and warrants another split thread perhaps?

Cookiemunster · 02-04-2017 10:14am

JCX BXC wrote: »

Shannon is on the wrong side of Limerick no more than Cork is on the wrong side of Cork.

Limerick can be bypassed to get to Shannon. You currently have to drive through Cork to get to Cork airport. It's not anywhere similar.

JCX BXC · 02-04-2017 10:21am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick can be bypassed to get to Shannon. You currently have to drive through Cork to get to Cork airport. It's not anywhere similar.

My point was they're similar in that they're both on the wrong side of the city. My point on traffic was that you have to go through Cork city, which can be a nightmare. Personally I'll exit at Blarney and get on the N40 from the west, which I find is the easiest way to do it.

Shannon is quite simple, motorway/dual carriageway right until you're there.

But Shannon is further from Limerick than Cork Airport is from Cork, but with the ease of traffic that's more than compensated for.

My point was they're far enough apart and are on the wrong side of the respective cities to affect eachother negatively in much of a way

Maybe if the two were on the N20 we could actually see one of them becoming inert?

Isambard · 02-04-2017 11:39am

JCX BXC wrote: »

My point was they're similar in that they're both on the wrong side of the city. My point on traffic was that you have to go through Cork city, which can be a nightmare. Personally I'll exit at Blarney and get on the N40 from the east, which I find is the easiest way to do it.

?

you mean the west ? Joining the N40 at Ballincollig? The North Ring and the tunnel would be the way to go if you don't want to go through the city but not in rush hour.

Blarney and over to Victoria Cross and up to the N40 at Wilton is an option but fraught with traffic problems often

Having said that, I usually go through the city (McCurtain St and the Brian Boru Bridge) and use the South Link. I find that the quickest

JCX BXC · 02-04-2017 11:55am

Meant the West, not at ballincollig though, passing the Wilton shopping center and joining that way.

BlinkingLights · 02-04-2017 12:20pm

Isambard wrote: »

WIBN?

That of course would be an effect of not having the M20 and warrants another split thread perhaps?

WIBN?

Isambard · 02-04-2017 12:25pm

Wouldn't it be nice.....a phrase used for pipedreams on a certain forum I frequent. Forgot where I was... dementia setting in

Rightwing · 02-04-2017 12:27pm

This road needs to be built, if for no other reason than to save lives.

Both regions and cities will benefit. And I don't need my MSc to know that.

zulutango · 02-04-2017 12:52pm

Rightwing has spoken.

marno21 · 02-04-2017 1:54pm

The previous M20 plan included te eastern North Ring road as well. I assume this M20 will have the North Ring too because it's infeasible to dump all that new traffic into Blackpool

Isambard · 02-04-2017 2:35pm

it always make me scratch my head....what extra traffic? Won't it be pretty much the existing traffic having travelled safer and speedier?

The effects of the M20 on Cork and Limerick

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