has motor tax passed the "is it worth buying" rate?

hytrogen · 13-12-2012 11:30am

Rabidlamb wrote: »

If non-compliance is widespread they might look to just putting it on fuel.
People who drive more in less efficient cars pay more, sounds fairer than someone above who drives 2k miles a year paying the same as some guy who does 50k.

It was proposed & the oil majors rejected the concept of paying at the pump as it would severely affect consumption & market regulation would be conflicted. Only place it works, & cmiiw, is Norway where the oil pumped out is owned by the state & sold by the oil majors, again a debate for another thread I reckon.
Moral of the story around 60 ~ 75% of the cost of juice at the pump goes to the gov on tax anyway in Ireland.

creedp · 13-12-2012 11:33am

hytrogen wrote: »

It was proposed & the oil majors rejected the concept of paying at the pump as it would severely affect consumption & market regulation would be conflicted. Only place it works, & cmiiw, is Norway where the oil pumped out is owned by the state & sold by the oil majors, again a debate for another thread I reckon.
Moral of the story around 60 ~ 75% of the cost of juice at the pump goes to the gov on tax anyway in Ireland.

Who knows if people keep going on about putting more tax on fuel they might just get their wish .. but they will still be paying motor tax ..

godtabh · 13-12-2012 11:33am

galwaytt wrote: »

@Godtabh - not personal btw, but you put a good example - but isn't it well that you could afford a 2011 Citroen, just to get the 'cheap' tax ? Unfortunately, you are the exception rather than the rule - post '08 reg cars only account for 14% of the national fleet right now, and with a miniscule 4% of the fleet p.a.. Which means, that at the current rate it will take nigh-on well over a decade (actually, way more...) before the rest of us are in a position to. So what about having a just tax system for, oh, I dunno.........the MAJORITY ?

Of course post 08 cars will only make up 14% of the fleet when you consider how old the fleet is compared the the 4 year old CO2 based system. I don't think that statistic is useful given that for many years it will be skewed in favor or pre 08 cars.

I'm not going to apologize for being able to afford a 2011 car. Like every one else I have financial worries (2 mortgages (wifes and mine), kids, job uncertainty etc) but between good financial management I can save a bit and able to buy. I havent been on a holiday in 2 years but have the car I wanted with any other debts so I'm happy out.

PS didnt get the C4 for cheap tax. Was replace a Polo for a bigger boot for baby crap.

13-12-2012 11:34am

dgt wrote: »

Whereabouts? I generally only see them around Dublin...

Cork city and surrounding areas, saw one in bandon 2 months ago.
Anyone using the 3 months on three months off approach is making regular false declarations unless the car isnt used when its untaxed.
Some laughable comments in this thread, a 2006 reg 1500 to tax car that they can't afford to tax but they don't want a cheap to tax old car, unreal, that's called tough sh1t in my book.

gurramok · 13-12-2012 11:34am

corktina wrote: »

it's about time enforcement was practised. You wouldn't leave home in the UK with out T&T if you had any sense and it should be the same here.

more road blocks and zero tolerance is called for

Yeh sure when we're getting robbed on tax, that is those who possess a pre-08 car. Double robbed when those of us cannot afford a 08+ car to avail of the lower tax rate.

godtabh · 13-12-2012 11:36am

listermint wrote: »

YAY lets have all the poor people driving around in Puntos travelling 150Km round trip to work daily at motorway speeds.......

.... rather than addressing the elephant in the room that is our two tiered monstrosity of a motor tax system.

Get up the yard.

I did it for 5 years. Why cant you? You think a punto cant drive a 120kph?

Bigus · 13-12-2012 11:36am

godtabh wrote: »

If you cant afford the tax you cant afford the car so get rid of it.

If the tax for a 2l car is to much downgrade. Its your choice what car you drive and your responsibility to ensure its taxed accordingly.

The sense of entitlement in this threads make me sick. Every one knows motor tax is likely to go up and up.

How do you downgrade from a 2 L mondeo that is worthless. .?

Why accept that tax is going up and up when this will drive revenue down.

I think elderly people in rural areas are entitled to drive if they can't walk and there is no public transport.

Also , revenue collection should not be top of Garda duties.

Look at the title of the thread, motortax has got relatively too dear unless you are in a post 08 car.

If the excise duty on alcohol was severely increased we'd have a thread on here on Poitin, and how to make it , bad taxes make people flout them.

If tax rates get stupid and UNFAIR compliance drops and revenue drops .

That's the point rightly or wrongly but even a student knows the law of diminishing returns.

Bearcat · 13-12-2012 11:37am

corktina wrote: »

it's about time enforcement was practised. You wouldn't leave home in the UK with out T&T if you had any sense and it should be the same here.

more road blocks and zero tolerance is called for

Sure....but they have an fair motor tax system.....ours is plainly an abortion....I'm imminently going to chop up my landcruiser to a commercial which I'm entitled to do......1800€ is outrageous......then the home tax.

What this country has done has made us all entrench and say fugh this.
I'm going back to riding a motor bike with my big middle finger held high.
http://youtu.be/olD8Nv7C8qs

kneeelix · 13-12-2012 11:38am

Rabidlamb wrote: »

If non-compliance is widespread they might look to just putting it on fuel.
People who drive more in less efficient cars pay more, sounds fairer than someone above who drives 2k miles a year paying the same as some guy who does 50k.

This makes the most sense. If you want to run a vehicle then you pay tax on it. No real way around it and it gets rid of the admin required to process the tax documents.

A sales rep traveling from Dublin to Cork regularly should pay more tax the granny who uses the car to get her loaf of bread 3 times a week. Fair is fair imo.

hytrogen · 13-12-2012 11:38am

godtabh wrote: »

If you cant afford the tax you cant afford the car so get rid of it.

If the tax for a 2l car is to much downgrade. Its your choice what car you drive and your responsibility to ensure its taxed accordingly.

The sense of entitlement in this threads make me sick. Every one knows motor tax is likely to go up and up. So maybe reassess if that 2005 2l car is worth buying long term. You may want it and you maybe able to afford the tax this year but what about next year?

Maybe the 1.2l Punto is the more prudent option. It maybe not what you want to drive but if it gets you from A-B and you can afford the tax whats the problem. I'd have no problem with a punto. Drove one for 5 years

Ironically was over in Clermont for the great Leinster match at the weekend there, surprisingly & subtly poorer city than expected considering it's got the main michelin tyre factory beside the stadium. Took note of the types of cars people drove. Many newer ones were wee punto's & corsa's while the larger saloons & estates were mostly pre 2000 models! Where's their nct I ask?! (probably a question for another thread on moorings costs & why that fiasco isn't open for competition?)

Indricotherium · 13-12-2012 11:42am

Swanner wrote: »

Motor tax has become ridiculous. I do 3 months on 3 months off. Sometimes go 4 months before renewing. If they looked for a more reasonable amount I would be happy to pay it but €1500 for a 06 car is a farce. The chances of getting away with it are far greater then the chances of getting caught so its well worth it IMO.

I have an 07 car and its less than a third of that! You're not forced to drive a big engines car.

hytrogen · 13-12-2012 11:44am

Bearcat wrote: »

Sure....but they have an fair motor tax system.....ours is plainly an abortion....I'm imminently going to chop up my landcruiser to a commercial which I'm entitled to do......1800€ is outrageous......then the home tax.

What this country has done has made us all entrench and say fugh this.
I'm going back to riding a motor bike with my big middle finger held high.
http://youtu.be/olD8Nv7C8qs

Can I be treasurer to your MC & fiddle the books??

godtabh · 13-12-2012 11:44am

Bigus wrote: »

How do you downgrade from a 2 L mondeo that is worthless. .?

Not being smart but buy a bike. I did it to replace the saab.

Not going to suit every one but not every one is out to dodge their tax

cgarrad · 13-12-2012 11:44am

The GoSafe speed vans are being upgraded to check for tax.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/100m-car-tax-dodgers-to-be-caught-by-speed-cameras-3243034.html

Also the declared off the road statements ae being changed to be before you take the car off the road not after as is the current system.

flutered · 13-12-2012 11:49am

my banger costs me 17 euro a week to tax, why do i drive it, no choice i cannot walk, there is no public transport advailable, i cannot get out of a low car, now i need an auto box as i cannot change gear, i am told that i fulfill none of the criteria for the primary cert, yet one of my former employers has it, he also walks 7 miles twice a day for his health, i have some serious decisions to make in the future, one of them is, do i deciede to become housebound, the gov are losing some serious revenue while the present systm is in place.

godtabh · 13-12-2012 11:50am

cgarrad wrote: »

The GoSafe speed vans are being upgraded to check for tax.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/100m-car-tax-dodgers-to-be-caught-by-speed-cameras-3243034.html

Also the declared off the road statements ae being changed to be before you take the car off the road not after as is the current system.

PRIVATE speed cameras could be used to detect motor tax dodgers as the Government desperately tries to recover €100m worth of car tax lost each year.

I'll believe it when I see it.

As some one suggested already if you want a balanced system I reckon every one should pay via fuel. Pay for the amount you use.

Valetta · 13-12-2012 11:50am

In this whole debate about motor tax, I fail to see how the value of the car has any relevance.

piperh · 13-12-2012 11:52am

I phoned the local Gard station(also traffic core central for the region) to ask about declaring my car off the road as i have a fractured shoulder,fractured pelvis and torn rotator cuff so driving will be a long way off. I wanted to know if they'd need proof it was off the road or if the Sorn thing had already been implemented. No proof needed at all just come in and get the form stamped :rolleyes: And they wonder why the system is abused.

AugustusMinimus · 13-12-2012 11:53am

I'm suprised people just aren't making up their own tax disks on the computer.

Dartz · 13-12-2012 11:55am

Can't afford not to drive either?

Isn't that often the case. Especially when Bus Atha Cliath takes 2 hours to get to work on a good day. (And even with tax, works out more expensive than driving to work in 20 minutes)

Motor Tax is an easy strangler because so many people have to drive. Honestly, I don't care if anyone's driving with tax or without.... it's a matter of piece of mind. If my car was worth less than the tax charge, I'd give serious thought to just not bothering with it because it's cheaper to have it seized and just get another.

Especially with such a low risk of getting caught.

So what if it's illegal. So's using my car to transport stuff for work (Private insurance, not commercial). So's a lot of things everyone does daily. And probably without realising they're illegal.

If it's more onerous to follow the law, than to stay outside it.... there's something seriously wrong there. And not necessarily with the punishment.

Valetta · 13-12-2012 11:55am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I'm suprised people just aren't making up their own tax disks on the computer.

Maybe because it's illegal?

godtabh · 13-12-2012 11:56am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I'm suprised people just aren't making up their own tax disks on the computer.

I think some one posted here already that people area.

AugustusMinimus · 13-12-2012 11:57am

Valetta wrote: »

Maybe because it's illegal?

Not paying your tax is also illegal. Doesn't stop people not doing it.

Don't think I've ever read in the paper of anyone being prosecuted for a forged tax disk.

hytrogen · 13-12-2012 11:57am

Bigus wrote: »

How do you downgrade from a 2 L mondeo that is worthless. .?

simple, go into your nearest dealership, point & say "I want that one"

I think elderly people in rural areas are entitled to drive if they can't walk and there is no public transport.

Fair point but Bigger risk on main roads than boy racers statistically since br's are being irradiated & running into walls trying to overtake biddy doing 20 in a 40 zone..

However I do agree that there should be more infrastructural support for the elderly so they don't have to drive & face confusing speeds..

bazz26 · 13-12-2012 12:12pm

piperh wrote: »

I phoned the local Gard station(also traffic core central for the region) to ask about declaring my car off the road as i have a fractured shoulder,fractured pelvis and torn rotator cuff so driving will be a long way off. I wanted to know if they'd need proof it was off the road or if the Sorn thing had already been implemented. No proof needed at all just come in and get the form stamped :rolleyes: And they wonder why the system is abused.

The Gardai are only witnesses to you declarating that the car is off the road, they are not enforcers of that declaration.

biko · 13-12-2012 12:15pm

I pay 800/year in car tax but since I actually come across checkpoints every once in a while I'll still pay up when reminder comes in the mail.
If I lived out in the sticks I'd probably reconsider it.

gurramok · 13-12-2012 12:16pm

hytrogen wrote: »

simple, go into your nearest dealership, point & say "I want that one"

Did a quick check on carzone(yeh yeh:)), there are only 6 cars in the entire country available at a price under €4k that are year 08+, 4 of them Chevrolet.

What price do you suggest that those should ditch their old cars and get new cars to avail of the cheaper tax rate?

godtabh · 13-12-2012 12:18pm

gurramok wrote: »

Did a quick check on carzone(yeh yeh:)), there are only 6 cars in the entire country available at a price under €4k that are year 08+, 4 of them Chevrolet.

What price do you suggest that those should ditch their old cars and get new cars to avail of the cheaper tax rate?

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Renault/Clio/3-1.4-16/201245210892288/advert?channel=CARS Looking for €5k but you may get it cheaper

Kenny Logins · 13-12-2012 12:20pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Not paying your tax is also illegal. Doesn't stop people not doing it.

Don't think I've ever read in the paper of anyone being prosecuted for a forged tax disk.

Passive/active law-breaking.

biko · 13-12-2012 12:20pm

piperh wrote: »

I phoned the local Gard station(also traffic core central for the region) to ask about declaring my car off the road as i have a fractured shoulder,fractured pelvis and torn rotator cuff so driving will be a long way off. I wanted to know if they'd need proof it was off the road or if the Sorn thing had already been implemented. No proof needed at all just come in and get the form stamped :rolleyes: And they wonder why the system is abused.

This will be addressed at some point in that you will have to declare it off the road before you take it off. So if you're caught it's not just no tax, it's in a car that is declared off the road - whatever the penalty is for that.
http://www.thejournal.ie/motor-tax-reform-will-require-drivers-to-prove-cars-are-off-the-road-460585-May2012/

working fool · 13-12-2012 12:21pm

godtabh wrote: »

If you cant afford the tax you cant afford the car so get rid of it.

If the tax for a 2l car is to much downgrade. Its your choice what car you drive and your responsibility to ensure its taxed accordingly.

The sense of entitlement in this threads make me sick. Every one knows motor tax is likely to go up and up. So maybe reassess if that 2005 2l car is worth buying long term. You may want it and you maybe able to afford the tax this year but what about next year?

Maybe the 1.2l Punto is the more prudent option. It maybe not what you want to drive but if it gets you from A-B and you can afford the tax whats the problem. I'd have no problem with a punto. Drove one for 5 years

I've a 2004 avensis diesel I travel 50m a day round trip on bad roads
Tax next year is €710 I think .
Just humor me here but if I could afford the same car in an 2008 model which is exactly the same engine/ emissions
What would my tax be ????

gurramok · 13-12-2012 12:22pm

godtabh wrote: »

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Renault/Clio/3-1.4-16/201245210892288/advert?channel=CARS Looking for €5k but you may get it cheaper

You upped the max price by a grand to 5k. That leaves 66 cars in the entire country, nearly a third are Chevrolet. Yet thats the market for hundreds of thousands of motorists to change over? :rolleyes:

corktina · 13-12-2012 12:26pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I'm suprised people just aren't making up their own tax disks on the computer.

i think its because things are moving on from the disc being the proof that you'd paid your share... ANPR in all Traffic Corps cars and Gosafe vans is the way to go (a start anyway) and wardens getting a 10% commission on all cars they book for no tax would be another.

galwaytt · 13-12-2012 12:29pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

A sorn system, widespread anpr, and a tie in with an insurance register would quickly identify the non compliant.

This sounds harsh, but if you cannot afford to tax the car you shouldn't drive it.

How convenient. I could afford my car when I bought it. Tax has now gone up in leaps and bounds, since. Crystal-ball gaze much ?

SORN and ANPR will just bring us to the UK situation becoming rife: cloning etc.

Oh, and, ANPR can't read this............

godtabh · 13-12-2012 12:32pm

working fool wrote: »

I've a 2004 avensis diesel I travel 50m a day round trip on bad roads
Tax next year is €710 I think .
Just humor me here but if I could afford the same car in an 2008 model which is exactly the same engine/ emissions
What would my tax be ????

you drive an avensis. You tell me

cgarrad · 13-12-2012 12:32pm

galwaytt wrote: »

How convenient. I could afford my car when I bought it. Tax has now gone up in leaps and bounds, since. Crystal-ball gaze much ?

SORN and ANPR will just bring us to the UK situation becoming rife: cloning etc.

Oh, and, ANPR can't read this............

They photograph from the front to get a cleaner plate and a photo of the driver.

Jack breen · 13-12-2012 12:35pm

corktina wrote: »

i think its because things are moving on from the disc being the proof that you'd paid your share... ANPR in all Traffic Corps cars and Gosafe vans is the way to go (a start anyway) and wardens getting a 10% commission on all cars they book for no tax would be another.

My tax is out since august and I have passed loads of Traffic Corps Avensis and none of them have followed me yet. When is the go safe thing coming in?

Slattsy · 13-12-2012 12:36pm

I've been driving for 6 years.
90% of this has been in Dublin. With the remaining 10% with trips to Sligo (where the gf is from) and random weekends away / golf trips.
And i have NEVER seen a checkpoint anywhere, not once.

And i can count on 1 hand the amount of speed checks i've seen.
Maybe im just lucky and seem to miss all this.

And for the record i've always paid my tax. It would make me wonder why i even bother when I can easily get away with.

But dont worry, i still will

corkgsxr · 13-12-2012 12:37pm

grand too say add it to petrol.

australia has 3rd party insurance added to petrol

but our tax rates are extortionate anyway

the tax on petrol as it is is ridiculous. its already got to the point of diminishing return but they cant see that.

if the government dropped 10- 15 cent on petrol and diesel the general populous would be much happyer. everything drops as transport costs drop.

and they`d probably get the exact same in tax cos people would drive more

hytrogen · 13-12-2012 12:38pm

gurramok wrote: »

Did a quick check on carzone(yeh yeh:)), there are only 6 cars in the entire country available at a price under €4k that are year 08+, 4 of them Chevrolet.

What price do you suggest that those should ditch their old cars and get new cars to avail of the cheaper tax rate?

One that would be economically viable for ones current economic standards perhaps?
I don't suggest anything to be frankly honest, I would agree with OP that the costs have risen & will put people off the road but if you're not economically viable because you may be a tight orse or otherwise then downgrade & get over it rockstar. Otherwise read a previous post I said about Clermont & understand the broader picture

galwaytt · 13-12-2012 12:39pm

godtabh wrote: »

If you cant afford the tax you cant afford the car so get rid of it.

If the tax for a 2l car is to much downgrade. Its your choice what car you drive and your responsibility to ensure its taxed accordingly.

The sense of entitlement in this threads make me sick. Every one knows motor tax is likely to go up and up. So maybe reassess if that 2005 2l car is worth buying long term. You may want it and you maybe able to afford the tax this year but what about next year?

Maybe the 1.2l Punto is the more prudent option. It maybe not what you want to drive but if it gets you from A-B and you can afford the tax whats the problem. I'd have no problem with a punto. Drove one for 5 years

Out with the ol' convenience stick again, I see.....

...tried selling a 'high tax' car lately, have you ?
...if they had money-to-change a car, they'd have money to tax the one they have, it would appear to me. If they own the car, and are still on-the-floor money-wise, buying is not an option. Let alone a shiney '11 reg........
...'entitlement' ? That's alright for those driving around subsidised-by-those-not-on-emissons-tax cars. Every post 08 car is subsidised in terms of motor tax and VRT by those who are not.
...as for the 1.2 Punto correlation: see my example on a 13 year old 1.1 Fiat. €150 to buy, €330 to tax ? Look at your (now) tax - see that as just, do you ?
...and don't forget - we're not driving cars for sport: they are TRANSPORT. Work, School, etc. So we should give up our requirement to earn a living over an outrageous Motor tax ? Er, don't think so.......

mickdw · 13-12-2012 12:40pm

listermint wrote: »

Motor Tax is another Dublin Tax. Plain and simple.

Wtf?

Boskowski · 13-12-2012 12:41pm

I'm afraid prices of stuff, tax rates etc are usually not set to suit people. I think it works the other way around as in you buy what you can afford.

If your car is worth nothing but costs a lot to tax scrap it and get a different one. If you can't afford what you would like to drive, we'll then you can't afford it. It's all fairly simple really.

And before anyone says anything my car costs a grand to tax and I hate paying it. Of course I would. I hate paying income tax too. But they are the realities.
If I hated it more than I like keeping my car or if I couldn't afford I'd get a different one. And if that's a 500€ banger cos that's all I can afford so be it.

working fool · 13-12-2012 12:42pm

godtabh wrote: »

you drive an avensis. You tell me

Yup
Sold the punto and saved like mad for a few years

So dreams do come true .

So how much is it to tax an 08 one ?

gurramok · 13-12-2012 12:42pm

hytrogen wrote: »

One that would be economically viable for ones current economic standards perhaps?
I don't suggest anything to be frankly honest, I would agree with OP that the costs have risen & will put people off the road but if you're not economically viable because you may be a tight orse or otherwise then downgrade & get over it rockstar. Otherwise read a previous post I said about Clermont & understand the broader picture

Nothing wrong with alot of pre-08 cars, they run fine when serviced and those with good emissions are discriminated against.

What price of a 08 car is economically viable in order to afford the cheap tax rate? €5k, €10k , €15k? Do you suggest people get loans?

mickdw · 13-12-2012 12:46pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Every post 08 car is subsidised in terms of motor tax and VRT by those who are not.
..

What?
You show a very limited knowledge of the tax system. My 08 1.8t is similar in price to what it was before the changes.
What about proper sports cars? Immediately went from 1600 to 2000 euro under the new system and is now 2300 approx.

13-12-2012 12:47pm

galwaytt wrote: »

SORN and ANPR will just bring us to the UK situation becoming rife: cloning etc.

Dont think cloning would be for the casual 3 month on 3 month off fellas, thats the plea of "Sorry guard I forgot about it" - but when u take an action like photoshop a tax disc or change a number plate - thats an action to evade the tax - I wouldn't think there is nearly as much of that happening at the moment.

i wonder how prevalent are the ANPR cars? A previous poster said its still in trial on one car. I would imagine the equipment cost is going to be high to kit even just the Traffic corp cars out.

working fool · 13-12-2012 12:48pm

gurramok wrote: »

Nothing wrong with alot of pre-08 cars, they run fine when serviced and those with good emissions are discriminated against.

What price of a 08 car is economically viable in order to afford the cheap tax rate? €5k, €10k , €15k? Do you suggest people get loans?

Hmmm
Yes the banks are throwing money around these days

godtabh · 13-12-2012 12:51pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Out with the ol' convenience stick again, I see.....

...tried selling a 'high tax' car lately, have you ?
...if they had money-to-change a car, they'd have money to tax the one they have, it would appear to me. If they own the car, and are still on-the-floor money-wise, buying is not an option. Let alone a shiney '11 reg........
...'entitlement' ? That's alright for those driving around subsidised-by-those-not-on-emissons-tax cars. Every post 08 car is subsidised in terms of motor tax and VRT by those who are not.
...as for the 1.2 Punto correlation: see my example on a 13 year old 1.1 Fiat. €150 to buy, €330 to tax ? Look at your (now) tax - see that as just, do you ?
...and don't forget - we're not driving cars for sport: they are TRANSPORT. Work, School, etc. So we should give up our requirement to earn a living over an outrageous Motor tax ? Er, don't think so.......

I sold a 1.8l Saab 93 in Sept. Not exactly a high end car but still not much of a market for it. I had been trying to see it for months and finally did.

No body subsidized me. I pay the rate of tax appropriate to my car. If anything I subsidized any one who doesn't pay tax.

So for approximately €480 you can enjoy a year of legal driving? Sounds like bargain to me.

M44B19 · 13-12-2012 12:53pm

If SORN does come in here, I can guarantee the stupid knobs in charge will try charge a stupid amount to declare a car as SORN.

It'll be reported in the news it'll be say €200 a few days before offical announcement and then it'll be announced its only €100 and as usual Joe Public will say "Jasus could be way worse, sure its only half what they said"

has motor tax passed the "is it worth buying" rate?

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