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Genuine question on the abolition of the Seanad

2»

Comments

  • #52
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The admin charge was covered too. And yep. 6k was all I needed to live in the big smoke for 9 months.


    Indeed.

    You should write a book. How to survive in the big smoke for 6k.


  • #53
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    syklops wrote: »
    You should write a book. How to survive in the big smoke for 6k.
    lol it's not that hard. 430 for rent a month, 430*9=3870, 20 a week for food, 20*9*4=720, cycle or walk to college is free and you're left with 1410 for books, bills, going out whatever.


  • #54
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    20 a week for food

    would love to have seen your weekley shopping, no doubt contained large amounts of Aldi/Lidl 20c noodles


  • #55
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    lol it's not that hard. 430 for rent a month, 430*9=3870, 20 a week for food, 20*9*4=720, cycle or walk to college is free and you're left with 1410 for books, bills, going out whatever.

    20 euro a week for food? What were you eating?


  • #56
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    the groutch wrote: »
    would love to have seen your weekley shopping, no doubt contained large amounts of Aldi/Lidl 20c noodles
    Of course! Student living.


  • #57
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »

    Well let's change that. As part of reforms giving the Seanad more powers lets extend the right to vote to all third level institutions.

    Why? why should graduates be given special elitist status?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #58
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Well if it were the case that only the children of college grads could go to college, and that only college grads could vote to elect the Taoiseach, then that would be an elite.

    But the university senators are not in a position of power they are there to assist the dail as technical experts. If you like, the real question is why don't other important parts of civic life - doctors, school teachers, emergency services, writers, journalists, farmers, lawyers, dare I say it bankers - who can provide their expertise to the Seanad and ultimately to the government.

    As for the vote - again it is not a question of giving university grads a special status in society, it's that universities are supposed to appoint experts to the Seanad and they have decided that elections are better than the administrations just appointing people.

    Meaning no disrespect, I think your misunderstanding of the reasons why there are six university senators is why you believe that it is elitest.

    It's not that I think it is elitist. It is elitist - that is an undeniable fact.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #59
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Why? why should graduates be given special elitist status?
    To encourage what is seen as a desirable trait. After all the gombeens who have been democratically elected perhaps we could do with a bit of meritocracy.


  • #60
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    To encourage what is seen as a desirable trait. After all the gombeens who have been democratically elected perhaps we could do with a bit of meritocracy.

    Really? you think the main purpose of seanad votes for university graduates is to encourage entry to third level education. Really? I mean I can think of so many different ways of encouraging third level educational achievement.

    That just shows how indefensible it is if thats the only justification you can come up with.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #61
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    1865 wrote: »
    To answer the op. Losing the Seanad could be ok for democracy but not with our current situation.
    In most unicameral countries there is a very well developed local government system. There could be multiples of the number of councillors that we have here. Some of the nordic countries have a local councillor for every thousand odd voters. But bear in mind that many of the councillors would be unpaid.

    So a solution to losing the Seanad could be to massively improve local government I.e. more councillors with real local democracy.

    Btw I voted no as I would like to see a reformed Seanad which is subordinate to the dail but with defined watchdog powers.

    Unfortunately any solution requires more politicians of some sort.

    This was why I voted no.

    Reform local government, reform the Dail and then discuss the Seanad. Currently we have a gang of four making the decisions, an unaccountable Cabinet and an insane amount of legislation being guillotined so I found it unbelievable that abolition of the Seanad would be 'reform' but smacked of a further consolidation of power to an elite.

    To the poster who mentioned people being unable to go to 3rd level in the 80s - I did in 1981. No grant, grew up in a one-parent family yet I managed it :confused:..perhaps I am not 'working class' enough for you as my father was a foreman in a bakery rather than 'just' a baker.


  • #62
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Really? you think the main purpose of seanad votes for university graduates is to encourage entry to third level education. Really? I mean I can think of so many different ways of encouraging third level educational achievement.

    That just shows how indefensible it is if thats the only justification you can come up with.
    It's one way of encouraging them. You tell me why you think it's there.


  • #63
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It's one way of encouraging them. You tell me why you think it's there.

    You're the one who is attempting to justify it.

    I'm not. In my view it's completely indefensible.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #64
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    mango salsa wrote: »
    You're the one who is attempting to justify it.

    I'm not. In my view it's completely indefensible.
    I didn't ask you to defend it. I asked you to tell me why you think it's there. Why in your view did Dev. A known democrat and egalitarian introduce it?


  • #65
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It's one way of encouraging them.

    It's not though - Out of 10,000 annual NUI graduates only roughly 700 register for Seanad votes.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #66
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    mango salsa wrote: »
    It's not though - Out of 10,000 annual NUI graduates only roughly 700 register for Seanad votes.
    All the better for those of us who do.


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  • #67
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    All the better for those of us who do.

    You can't actually defend University Votes at all in any way can you?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #68
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #69
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'm looking forward to spoiling my NUI ballot paper. It's outrageous that I should have a vote and people who dropped out of secondary school shouldn't.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #70
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    mango salsa wrote: »
    You can't actually defend University Votes at all in any way can you?
    I dont need to. To take away my vote would require a referendum. And no government is going to touch that issue for a very long time.


  • #71
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Thankfully those days are gone. Third level education is open to everyone now.

    So, what you're essentially saying is that you should be entitled to a Seanad vote because you "worked hard" for your degree, while the thousands of people who were unable to access third level education due to their straitened socioeconomic circumstances in the 60's, 70's and 80's should not be allowed a Seanad vote despite the fact that many of them have worked a damn sight harder than you over the years and it was their taxes that paid for your third level grant? You really are full of the milk of human kindness, aren't you? :rolleyes:


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  • #72
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    So, what you're essentially saying is that you should be entitled to a Seanad vote because you "worked hard" for your degree, while the thousands of people who were unable to access third level education due to their straitened socioeconomic circumstances in the 60's, 70's and 80's should not be allowed a Seanad vote despite the fact that many of them have worked a damn sight harder than you over the years and it was their taxes that paid for your third level grant? You really are full of the milk of human kindness, aren't you? :rolleyes:
    *Sigh*

    No I'm not I'm saying third level graduates should have a vote in the seanad because it's a desirable achievement the government wants to encourage others to strive for. As for people who couldn't go to college in the 60's, 70's and 80's I really don't see the problem here. Anyone can get a degree as a mature student.


  • #73
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    mango salsa wrote: »
    It's not that I think it is elitist. It is elitist - that is an undeniable fact.

    So is not giving the vote or fully rights to 12 year olds. Just because something is elitist doesn't mean it's a bad idea automatically.


  • #74
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I dont need to. To take away my vote would require a referendum. And no government is going to touch that issue for a very long time.

    Hold on a minute. You are defending your rights in this thread as a Seanad voter, yet here you want to remove the voting rights of your fellow NUI graduates who may be Irish citizens living outside the jurisdiction because you want to enforce the residency rule on them....?
    None. If they're not resident they can't vote.


  • #75
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Hold on a minute. You are defending your rights in this thread as a Seanad voter, yet here you want to remove the voting rights of your fellow NUI graduates who may be Irish citizens living outside the jurisdiction because you want to enforce the residency rule on them....?
    Nope. I'm removing my right to vote in the Seanad from abroad too. I don't want to take away their postal vote but it doesn't make sense to have one rule for the Seanad and another for the Dáil.


  • #76
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    *Sigh*

    No I'm not I'm saying third level graduates should have a vote in the seanad because it's a desirable achievement the government wants to encourage others to strive for. As for people who couldn't go to college in the 60's, 70's and 80's I really don't see the problem here. Anyone can get a degree as a mature student.

    *Sigh*......... Just *sigh*


  • #77
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I'm removing my right to vote in the Seanad from abroad too.

    Which conveniently for you removes their right as well.


  • #78
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Which conveniently for you removes their right as well.
    Well. Yes. That's what everyone means.


  • #79
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Well. Yes. That's what everyone means.

    Well, if thats what you want.....

    Funnily enough though, it's possibly this anomaly of non-resident Irish citizens that are TCD/NUI grads being able to take part in Seanad elections that leaves the door slightly ajar for possible future Seanad reform in the area of other classes of Irish citizens living abroad being allowed a vote here in whatever form. When is another question entirely though.........


  • #80
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Well, if thats what you want.....

    Funnily enough though, it's possibly this anomaly of non-resident Irish citizens that are TCD/NUI grads being able to take part in Seanad elections that leaves the door slightly ajar for possible future Seanad reform in the area of other classes of Irish citizens living abroad being allowed a vote here in whatever form. When is another question entirely though.........
    Exactly, agree 100%. That's why the door should be shut.


  • #81
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    nesf wrote: »
    So is not giving the vote or fully rights to 12 year olds. Just because something is elitist doesn't mean it's a bad idea automatically.

    This is about giving special rights and priveleges to people based solely on their educational attainment. I really really don't see why graduates should have a special right and privelege to have a Seanad vote.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #82
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    A fellow boardsie, now living in France recieved her Seanad ballot paper in the post for the last Seanad election. That she can vote via post for the Seanad but not for the Dail seems wrong.


  • #83
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    mango salsa wrote: »
    This is about giving special rights and priveleges to people based solely on their educational attainment. I really really don't see why graduates should have a special right and privelege to have a Seanad vote.

    It's even more bonkers than that. I'm a graduate and I agree with you that there's no particular reason why I should have a vote in the Senate elections. As it happens though, I don't, because I didn't get my degree from the NUI or Trinity.

    On the other hand, my wife, who holds degrees from both institutions gets two votes - one in each university constituency . . .


  • #84
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    mango salsa wrote: »
    This is about giving special rights and priveleges to people based solely on their educational attainment. I really really don't see why graduates should have a special right and privelege to have a Seanad vote.

    Sure, my point is saying "it's elitist" doesn't mean much.


  • #85
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    It's even more bonkers than that. I'm a graduate and I agree with you that there's no particular reason why I should have a vote in the Senate elections. As it happens though, I don't, because I didn't get my degree from the NUI or Trinity.

    On the other hand, my wife, who holds degrees from both institutions gets two votes - one in each university constituency . . .

    The alarming thing is that almost 52% of the electorate voted to preserve this bizarre and unfair system last weekend :(


  • #86
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,815 ✭✭✭creedp


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    The alarming thing is that almost 52% of the electorate voted to preserve this bizarre and unfair system last weekend :(


    Isn't that the point though? Peope are arguing that the seanad is elitist as the majority of the electorate don't have the right to vote in seanad elections. Why then when they were offerred the opportunity to rid this little island of such elitism did they decide to retain it. As we are a democracy the people are sovereign and have decided that this particular piece of elitism is worthwhile. Given that Enda has committed not to re-run the referendum, there's nothing more to say in my book!


  • #87
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    creedp wrote: »
    Isn't that the point though? Peope are arguing that the seanad is elitist as the majority of the electorate don't have the right to vote in seanad elections. Why then when they were offerred the opportunity to rid this little island of such elitism did they decide to retain it. As we are a democracy the people are sovereign and have decided that this particular piece of elitism is worthwhile. Given that Enda has committed not to re-run the referendum, there's nothing more to say in my book!

    No

    That is absolutely not the point

    Many many people voted to keep it - not as it exists but reformed - I voted No last week - many others voted No last week but our vote was not to keep it as is - It was a vote for reform - I can't speak for the entirety of those who voted no but a significantly large number voted no because they want the Seanad reformed so that is much more democratically open.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #88
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,183 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    yyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaay we won horrayyyyy we get to save fidelma healey eames!!! wooohooooo


  • #89
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Large reforms are undoubtedly needed. First on the list has to be either expanding the University voting franchise to UL/DCU grads (and probably ITs) or perhaps removing the franchise altogether. I say that as someone with a vote in the University of Dublin constituency, the most highly-represented University at present.

    I'd be broadly in favour of the reforms outline in the Zappone bill, of which this is just one.


  • #90
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    mango salsa wrote: »
    No

    That is absolutely not the point

    Many many people voted to keep it - not as it exists but reformed - I voted No last week - many others voted No last week but our vote was not to keep it as is - It was a vote for reform - I can't speak for the entirety of those who voted no but a significantly large number voted no because they want the Seanad reformed so that is much more democratically open.

    This is certainly why I voted No. As appalling as the Seanad is in it's current form , I simply do not trust the Dáil as it currently is to scrutinise legislation properly.

    If the Dail had been reformed first, and if power over local issues had been devolved back to a properly constituted form of municipal government (as is the case of countries such as Denmark who the abolitionists were citing as an example of the way to go...did they not realise we have seen Borgen on the TV and witnessed elected representative actually resigning!!!) and if this current government had not further consolidated and centralised power and placed in in the hand of the gang of four and if they had not engaged in an insane amount of guillotining legislation I may have considered voting yes...but as the situation stands - No way José!

    Yes - I do have a Seanad vote but I firmly believe the franchise should be extended to include all Irish citizens of voting age.


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  • #91
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,815 ✭✭✭creedp


    mango salsa wrote: »
    No

    That is absolutely not the point

    Many many people voted to keep it - not as it exists but reformed - I voted No last week - many others voted No last week but our vote was not to keep it as is - It was a vote for reform - I can't speak for the entirety of those who voted no but a significantly large number voted no because they want the Seanad reformed so that is much more democratically open.


    I agree many people voted no to preserve the Seanad becasue they don't trust the democratically elected Dail to represent the electorate in a balanced an fair manner. Funny isn't. Seems to me its the democratically elected Dail which the full population is eligible to vote for that should be first in line for radical reform. If we actually had a properly functioning Dail supported by a strong and accountable local Govt (which is also democratically elected and made such a bags of the planning process in this contry) then maybe we wouldn't need to elitist Seanad to act a brake on the Dail.


  • #92
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    mango salsa wrote: »
    It's not that I think it is elitist. It is elitist - that is an undeniable fact.

    Your definition of elitist:
    1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

    The emphasis is mine.

    So you define elitist as a belief, and then say that it is not just a belief, it is a fact.

    That is both a tautology (a self-perpetuating assertion) and a logical fallacy (that just because a belief can be a fact, that your belief must be a fact) at the same time.

    You have also ignored the substantial point that I made earlier that the Seanad is not meant to be a representative institution but one of technical expertise, and the manner of selecting 6 of those experts is chosen by the Universities. This is called a straw man fallacy, where you ignore the substance of what is said against you and focus on a narrow and unfair view of the topic and repeat it in an attempt to discredit what other people are saying.


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