Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

Phoebas · 06-05-2013 8:15pm

SamHall wrote: »

Well as it used to come from Income tax and VAT etc,(Which I for one still pay every month) I think you are very much mistaken Phoebas.

It used to come from Income Tax, VAT, Stamp duty and all the rest.

But have a look at exchequer returns over the last 5 years or so. You'll see a big collapse in tax receipts. So while you may be personally paying the same or even more tax, the overall figures are down.

06-05-2013 8:18pm

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Good to see people are starting to pay what they owe.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/household-tax-dodgers-pay-up-as-revenue-closes-in-29244149.html[/QUOTE]
I also note You didn't quote any of the contributor's under the article, though on reading them, I couldn't blame You.
Just to tickle Your fancy, chew on this one ( apologies if the author reads this):
I read two articles over the week-end.
One stated that we currently pay 1 billion per month in interest,
the other that it is probable that the upcoming "bank health check" will reveal a 30 billion black hole that WE, the citizens, will have to fill.
If both articles are correct, and I honestly don't know if they are not, I think we are in deep deep trouble.
It could be that rather than being in a hole, we are in a mine shaft and we are still bloody digging.
I sincerely hope the author is wrong, but somehow, I think He/She is onto something here. For me? I'll not be registering anytime soon, and wait and see what crawls out of the woodwork....ok dv/MA/Vlad/Noonan/EG etc?
Oh and here's another which echoes my sentiment:
Instead of just printing more threats from that horrible, gloating woman, why doesn't this paper ask her how she thinks hard pressed households are going to find this money.
No doubt on her massive salary she has no such worries.

Here's one I like:
"This is good news. Weed out and expose all the tax dodgers and make sure everyone pays their tax bills. There is a culture of tax avoidance in this country that runs from top to bottom of this society. From the sordid kleptomaniacs who run this country down to the scam artists ripping off the welfare system it is seen to be acceptable to cheat the system. One of the great benefits of having the Troika supervise our finances is that this ugly part of the Irish psyche will be exterminated and we will be happy to pay our taxes and not be tempted to cheat the system anymore. Every country needs a tax system that works . Ireland with its very generous welfare system and incredible social benefits such as free education, health care, children's allowances, free travel for the elderly , etc, needs a very robust tax collection system to fund this system. Think of it as your patriotic duty to pay these taxes to continue to fund the excellent quality of life this country offers.
Like Reply
8 hours ago 20 Likes"

hfallada · 06-05-2013 8:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Here's one I like:
"This is good news. Weed out and expose all the tax dodgers and make sure everyone pays their tax bills. There is a culture of tax avoidance in this country that runs from top to bottom of this society. From the sordid kleptomaniacs who run this country down to the scam artists ripping off the welfare system it is seen to be acceptable to cheat the system. One of the great benefits of having the Troika supervise our finances is that this ugly part of the Irish psyche will be exterminated and we will be happy to pay our taxes and not be tempted to cheat the system anymore. Every country needs a tax system that works . Ireland with its very generous welfare system and incredible social benefits such as free education, health care, children's allowances, free travel for the elderly , etc, needs a very robust tax collection system to fund this system. Think of it as your patriotic duty to pay these taxes to continue to fund the excellent quality of life this country offers.
Like Reply
8 hours ago 20 Likes"

I think your mixing tax avoidance with tax evasion. Tax avoidance is complete legal where as tax evasion is illegal. A majority of the tax loopholes have been closed and its pretty hard to avoid tax now. As with tax evasion revenue are pretty good at identifying it now.

I have see nothing wrong with avoidance as it unfair for a hard working business person employing tens of people paying 56% tax with little benefit to them

06-05-2013 8:30pm

Another good one
"Taxes are the price of citizenship, and also civilisation (to bastardise Benjamin Franklin) If you do not like it, give up your passport, and move elsewhere. You will rapidly find out that Ireland is not a high tax jurisdiction. Anyone who refuses to pay a tax legislated by the democratically elected government of the day is indeed a tax dodger. If the cap fits, etc."

Banjo String · 06-05-2013 8:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Another good one
"Taxes are the price of citizenship, and also civilisation (to bastardise Benjamin Franklin) If you do not like it, give up your passport, and move elsewhere. You will rapidly find out that Ireland is not a high tax jurisdiction. Anyone who refuses to pay a tax legislated by the democratically elected government of the day is indeed a tax dodger. If the cap fits, etc."

Who are you quoting exactly?

06-05-2013 8:48pm

SamHall wrote: »

Who are you quoting exactly?

Sorry, Sam. I'm just quoting from a link LeDieux put up in post 141.

Le_Dieux · 06-05-2013 9:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, Sam. I'm just quoting from a link LeDieux put up in post 141.

We could ALL go on and on picking and choosing what comment suits our own arguments MA. I think You oversteppped the whole ethos of an argument by using the Independent to push your and your governments argument. The same paper which YOU condemned as proved in an example on this thread.

Oh and it wasn't me who put up the link...please get your facts right and also retract that staement you mention above. I only copied YOUR link.

06-05-2013 9:09pm

[QUOTE=Le_Dieux;Oh and it wasn't me who put up the link...please get your facts right![/QUOTE]

But it WAS you who picked and chose what comments to post here!

Le_Dieux · 06-05-2013 9:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But it WAS you who picked and chose what comments to post here!

It was YOU who started this charade with your usage of the Independent.

Anyhow, I am not going to say any more on this as am scared of getting banned., and also causing this thread to be locked, thus resulting in you and your government ministers silencing the majority ( based on the 3 polls conducted in the AH threads on the HHC).

06-05-2013 9:16pm

Le_Dieux wrote: »

It was YOU who started this charade with your usage of the Independent.

Anyhow, I am not going to say any more on this as am scared of getting banned., and also causing this thread to be locked, thus resulting in you and your government ministers silencing the majority ( based on the 3 polls conducted in the AH threads on the HHC).

Goodnight, Dear. Sleep well. Come back tomorrow and we'll have another chat.

cageyeuclid · 07-05-2013 4:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

FF are coming round to the Governments way of thinking. They are letting the electorate know that they DO agree with the LPT. (Whick, of course, we knew all along)

This is a barefaced untruth. After 500 years of British Govt propoganda the Irish people will easily recognise the source of Maryanne's vitriol, ... a failing government.

I quote from the FF leader's speech.

Property Tax
The property tax now being implemented is a classic example of a government which is refusing to respond to a developing crisis.
They have produced a tax which is about, as unfair as it could be. It makes no provision whatsoever for the ability of people to pay. It actively discriminates against many urban areas.
And still, no one in Government has explained why families who cannot even pay their mortgage are now being asked to pay this property tax?
It is wrong to expect families to do so.

Any utterances from Maryanne are just Govt rubbish.

LPT (as is) is cruel and unjust ... and no one in here has said otherwise .. as far as I can see.

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 7:45am

cageyeuclid wrote: »

This is a barefaced untruth. After 500 years of British Govt propoganda the Irish people will easily recognise the source of Maryanne's vitriol, ... a failing government.

I quote from the FF leader's speech.

Any utterances from Maryanne are just Govt rubbish.

LPT (as is) is cruel and unjust ... and no one in here has said otherwise .. as far as I can see.

It was FF who agreed the property tax with the troika. They may complain about the modalities of it but they won't be repealing it.

Scofflaw · 07-05-2013 9:52am

There is a general tendency here for some posters to accuse others of being shills, as if the posters were posting on behalf of the government/political party/Illuminati. You do not, and cannot, know that to really be the case, unless the poster actually says it. It is not, therefore, an adequate or acceptable response to arguments posters put forward.

In case that's not clear - statements like this

Any utterances from Maryanne are just Govt rubbish.

- are not an acceptable way of addressing someone's posts. Don't do it, it will be sanctioned.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Banjo String · 07-05-2013 10:26am

Phoebas wrote: »

It was FF who agreed the property tax with the troika. They may complain about the modalities of it but they won't be repealing it.

I'd agree with this to a certain extent Phoebas, however I imagine FF envisaged a much more improved economy than we have.

FG will lose voters and possibly their role in govt over this. History books will punish them.

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 1:36pm

SamHall wrote: »

FG will lose voters and possibly their role in govt over this. History books will punish them.

I guess we can be thankful that we have a Government that will at last do what is necessary, not just what is popular.

nice_guy80 · 07-05-2013 5:35pm

how someone with a 100 acre mansion doesn't have to pay property tax on that estate is crazy

FG looking after their wealthy and landed friends

darkhorse · 07-05-2013 6:16pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It is going to local authorities. 80 per cent of it (was originally 65 per cent) is going to the local authority it is collected in. The balance is redistributed to other local authorities.

Let's just take a few sentences out this story and have a look at the way the government ministers communicate with each other.

Up to 80% of property tax collected from households within specificlocal authorities will remain in a locality and not be used for facilitieselsewhere, the Government has agreed.
The Government had said that only 65% of funds collected in localities wouldremain there, in line with an expert(I wonder how many experts in the group are on the minimum wage) report on the proposed tax, and thatremaining amounts go back into the central fund and be spent in other areas.

However, Environment Minister Phil Hogan confirmed last night that it had beenagreed in principle that 80% of taxes would be retained within local authorityareas where properties were based. The remaining 20% of will go into a centralfund to be used by local authorities on a "needs basis", his officesaid.
I personally don't believe that any of these funds will be staying in this country, but thats just me.

darkhorse · 07-05-2013 6:36pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

He's obviously changed his mind since then.

And his morals, apparently.

darkhorse · 07-05-2013 6:40pm

Phoebas wrote: »

But it all goes on local authority funding.

You keep telling yerself that.

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 6:55pm

darkhorse wrote: »

You keep telling yerself that.

Its in black and white in the legislation

darkhorse wrote: »

Let's just take a few sentences out this story and have a look at the way the government ministers communicate with each other.

Mixed fonts and random emphasis.

07-05-2013 7:08pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

how someone with a 100 acre mansion doesn't have to pay property tax on that estate is crazy

FG looking after their wealthy and landed friends

I wonder how many 100 acre mansions there are in the country.

cageyeuclid · 07-05-2013 7:32pm

Phoebas wrote: »

I guess we can be thankful that we have a Government that will at last do what is necessary, not just what is popular.

But they have not done what is necessary (i.e to make the LPT equitable). At best this is lazy governance without a mandate, resulting in a cruel tax.

Le_Dieux · 07-05-2013 7:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder how many 100 acre mansions there are in the country.

It's attitudes like the retort here to a reasonable and sensible statement above which makes this country sick to the core. If someone can afford a 100 acre site, then they MUST be made pay their fair share. Yet, someone in a 3 bed semi who is struggling has to pay the LPT???

Next years elections can't come soon enough...

07-05-2013 7:43pm

Le_Dieux wrote: »

It's attitudes like the retort here to a reasonable and sensible statement above which makes this country sick to the core. If someone can afford a 100 acre site, then they MUST be made pay their fair share. Yet, someone in a 3 bed semi who is struggling has to pay the LPT???

Next years elections can't come soon enough...

I'm querying the 100 acre mansion. I'm trying to visualise it. A ONE acre mansion would be huge, so a 100 acre one is just unimaginable.

Le_Dieux · 07-05-2013 7:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm querying the 100 acre mansion. I'm trying to visualise it. A ONE acre mansion would be huge, so a 100 acre one is just unimaginable.

PLEASE MA, take your glasses off and see that the OP is only using the 100 acre as an example...:cool:

07-05-2013 7:51pm

Le_Dieux wrote: »

PLEASE MA, take your glasses off and see that the OP is only using the 100 acre as an example...:cool:

An example of what? A gigantic house, or a big house on a 100 acre site/farm? Is he suggesting that the house is exempt? Or is he suggesting that a site valuation would be more appropriate?

Le_Dieux · 07-05-2013 7:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

An example of what? A gigantic house, or a big house on a 100 acre site/farm? Is he suggesting that the house is exempt? Or is he suggesting that a site valuation would be more appropriate?

I can't speak for the poster, ASK HIM/HER! I can surmise, but I think one should wait until the poster answers your question.

Sorry ma, no chat tonight, am off out to organise a petition for our Estate which is a GE in everything but name thanks to that mate of yours from Kilkenny.

Again, I say I can't wait for the council elections to come along next year...your cronies are history as far as I am concerned!

cageyeuclid · 07-05-2013 8:02pm

Please, cut out the diversionary tactics, A mansion on 100 acres is not unusual.

More to the point, the LPT for an OAP is approx a 10% cut while the very personnel collecting the tax refuse a 4% salary cut ... A La Croke Park II.
As I said LPT is Cruel and UNjust for a huge number of people.

07-05-2013 8:13pm

cageyeuclid wrote: »

Please, cut out the diversionary tactics, A mansion on 100 acres is not unusual.

More to the point, the LPT for an OAP is approx a 10% cut while the very personnel collecting the tax refuse a 4% salary cut ... A La Croke Park II.
As I said LPT is Cruel and UNjust for a huge number of people.

For an OAP to lose 10% of their pension, they would have to be paying at least €1196 LPT per year. Now, THAT would be some mansion.

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 8:16pm

cageyeuclid wrote: »

Please, cut out the diversionary tactics, A mansion on 100 acres is not unusual.

To be fair, it is quite unusual - unless you want to include farmland.

cageyeuclid wrote: »

More to the point, the LPT for an OAP is approx a 10% cut ...

How do you work that one out? The OAP would need to be in the 600,001 to 650,000 band.

Banjo String · 07-05-2013 8:31pm

Phoebas wrote: »

I guess we can be thankful that we have a Government that will at last do what is necessary, not just what is popular.

Thats right, the current shower of gombeens in the FG party only promise what is popular pre-election, where they say FF's plan to introduce an LPT is unfair.

Scroll to page 59 of the document. (published in 2011 may I add)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0215/finegaelmanifesto.pdf

Funding Local Government: Fianna Fail’s proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair. But as we tackle the fiscal
crisis, we will have to cut central exchequer funding for local authorities, and we recognise that local authorities will have to find more sustainable sources of revenue appropriate to local circumstances. What
will be viewed as fair in South Dublin might be viewed as unworkable in rural Clare.
In this context, we will empower local authorities to put in place, following the 2014 local elections, fairer
alternatives to Fianna Fail’s and Labour’s recurring annual tax on the family home. The options would include:
• No extra local taxes, forcing local authorities to close non-priority services and / or to deliver increased
efficiencies;
• Increased local user charges for waste etc.; or
• The option of a local “site sale profits tax”. Such a tax would be levied on the profit made from the site
value on the sale of a residence (sales proceeds, less cost indexed by inflation, less stamp duty paid and
less home improvements)
The final measure might be considered as both fairer and more economically sensible than an annual
recurring property tax. Whichever option local electorates choose, for the first time since the 1970s local
government will have real independence from central government in deciding what services to provide at
local level and how to fund them.

That makes them a bunch of coniving liars without a mandate IMO.

Phoebas wrote: »

Its in black and white in the legislation

The text used in the manifesto was 'black and white' too Phoebas.

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 8:40pm

SamHall wrote: »

That makes them a bunch of coniving liars IMO.

They clearly didn't get their way. I'd put that down to coalition government and lack of fiscal independence.

Funding Local Government: Fianna Fail’s proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair.

You can see the problem - in any coalition government each party will win some and lose some.

SamHall wrote: »

The text used in the manifesto was 'black and white' too Phoebas.

I don't think you appreciate the difference between an election manifesto (aspiration) and legislation (law).

Le_Dieux · 07-05-2013 8:41pm

SamHall wrote: »

That makes them a bunch of coniving liars without a mandate IMO.

.

Last year, we had our RA AGM and invited our local FG Cllr along to explain why our estate was not listed under the GE list. He told us to pay the €100, and he PROMISED it would be reviewed this year. Needless to say I am aware of many ( me included) who never paid the HHC.

This year comes along, the b&ll&x can't get ANYTHING done for us, and we even have rats running around the derelict site. The concrete based foundations are STILL there, and the fencing around the site is falling down.

Once again I say I can't wait for the elections next year as this bo&&ox's lies will come home to haunt him. You are so RIGHT Sam, they are ALL lying conniving liars...ONLY thinking of themselves. And how 'people' can come along here and back them is mind-boggling. UNLESS, these same people are td's cllrs in disguise.

Nah....surely not:-)))

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 8:45pm

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Last year, we had our RA AGM and invited our local FG Cllr along to explain why our estate was not listed under the GE list. He told us to pay the €100, and he PROMISED it would be reviewed this year. Needless to say I am aware of many ( me included) who never paid the HHC.

Looks like you didn't meet your side of the bargain?

Banjo String · 07-05-2013 8:50pm

Phoebas wrote: »

They clearly didn't get their way. I'd put that down to coalition government and lack of fiscal independence.

Labour bullied FG...... Get the boat Phoebas:pac:

Phoebas wrote: »

You can see the problem - in any coalition government each party will win some and lose some.

Both lied lost when it came to the banks and bondholders so?

Phoebas wrote: »

I don't think you appreciate the difference between an election manifesto (aspiration) and legislation (law).

I 'appreciate' just fine thank you. FG lied to get into Govt, they are as guilty as any of the other political parties spouting populist BS to get what they want.

Elected on a completely false manifesto means they have no mandate IMO, the tiny amount paying the LPT at the first deadline proves that.

Coupled with the failure of CPA2, the end is nigh.

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 8:51pm

Le_Dieux wrote: »

And how 'people' can come along here and back them is mind-boggling. UNLESS, these same people are td's cllrs in disguise.

May I ask, why the use of quotes around the word 'people'?

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 8:52pm

SamHall wrote: »

Labour bullied FG...... Get the boat Phoebas:pac:

Bullied? I never suggested that at all. :mad:

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 8:55pm

SamHall wrote: »

Coupled with the failure of CPA2, the end is nigh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNkXQYxfIlQ

darkhorse · 07-05-2013 8:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

"Taxes are the price of citizenship. If the cap fits, etc."

Does that mean that the few hundred thousand unemployed are not viable citezens?

Am Chile · 07-05-2013 8:58pm

This post has gone viral on facebook-

Wexford County Council are sending people door to door asking whether people own or rent the house they're living in. Just had a man at the door, and when I asked why he was asking the question, he hummed and hawed, and I asked, "is it for the property tax?, "No, no," he answered, "I don't know, but I'd say it's for the second home tax", he eventually said. Tell them NOTHING. HOW DARE WEXFORD COUNTY COUNCIL HARASS PEOPLE LIKE THIS. Time for us to up the pickets on the council.

does anyone still think they have a full complete accurate database?

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=537229106321066&id=244762212234425

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 8:58pm

darkhorse wrote: »

Does that mean that the few hundred thousand unemployed are not viable citezens?

The unemployed pay taxes too. Including the LPT

Phoebas · 07-05-2013 9:01pm

Am Chile wrote: »

This post has gone viral on facebook-

does anyone still think they have a full complete accurate database?

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=537229106321066&id=244762212234425

Sounds like BS to me - why the hell would the council be going door to door to enforce a Revenue tax. I doubt they'ed be let even if they wanted to.

Chips Lovell · 07-05-2013 9:05pm

I think they still have the Household Charge until July 1. But that was the LGMA. Not sure if they'd have council staff checking details.

darkhorse · 07-05-2013 9:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

"Taxes are the price of citizenship. If the cap fits, etc."

Does that mean that the few hundred thousand unemployed people are not viable citizens?

darkhorse · 07-05-2013 9:15pm

Phoebas wrote: »

I guess we can be thankful that we have a Government that will at last do what is necessary.

Necessary for who?

07-05-2013 9:22pm

darkhorse wrote: »

Does that mean that the few hundred thousand unemployed people are not viable citizens?

I do believe that I AM a viable citizen. I pay VAT, Car tax, road tolls, LPT, Household Charge, Septic Tank charge.

That fairytale from Wexford was doing the rounds months ago. It's similar to the articles about the 'Students' who got billed for LPT. They were CAHWT activists and were manning the protests. Neither story has any credibility.

Le_Dieux · 07-05-2013 9:24pm

darkhorse wrote: »

Necessary for who?

LOL, Is this phoebas for real? Know what is necessary DH? To ensure ALL politicians have a cosy house, with as big a pension as possible.

Someone up above PLEASE help our little country, because obviously we have politicians and supporter's of theirs who think only of themselves.

Le_Dieux · 07-05-2013 9:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I do believe that I AM a viable citizen. I pay VAT, Car tax, road tolls, LPT, Household Charge, Septic Tank charge.

That fairytale from Wexford was doing the rounds months ago. It's similar to the articles about the 'Students' who got billed for LPT. They were CAHWT activists and were manning the protests. Neither story has any credibility.

I can read ma, and ( please remember I am not on FB) when I open the link...I DIDN'T upload the link, OK?... it says it's THREE HOURS old..NOT month.

I also blieve I am a 'viable citizen' as I pay my taxes, VAT, PRSI, road tolls (?), USC, but I am fúcked if I am going to pay a tax on a house that is MINE....and already paid a huge tax when buying it.

07-05-2013 9:32pm

Language, LeD! I'm very sensitive, you know.

Le_Dieux · 07-05-2013 9:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Language, LeD! I'm very sensitive, you know.

Sorry Phil, not able to take the heat?

You still haven't proved how that Wexford link is months old. According to my pc, when I open the site, it's only 3 HOURS old.

Another falacy of your fg bunch of cronies?

Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

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