Opportunity in the Legal Sector

Contra Proferentem · 11-05-2011 12:09pm #1

Just listening to Brendan Howlin rattling on in the Dail concerning the so-called jobs initiative and was interested in his comment that there will never be the same over inflation of employment in certain sectors.

The construction industry was the obvious, but he also hinted at other sectors. So, given that there was a great deal of legal work dependent on property over the last decade, will the legal sector be a similar casualty to a certain extent?

johnnyskeleton · 11-05-2011 2:09pm

Solicitors are already hit badly because of the drop off in conveyancing and, more importantly, the massive number of claims put in against the SDMF etc causing insurance to rocket.

Some areas are hit badly, others are alright and some are doing really well at the moment.

So long as there are laws and courts there will be a need for lawyers.

The numbers coming to the bar have droped a bit, but not massively. There are still 100+ new barristers every year. Some will say that this is completely unsustainable and that there is no work for them, but the fact that they keep on coming suggests at a mimimum that there is work there.

nuac · 11-05-2011 9:06pm

Johnny Skeleton

There is over supply in both branches of the profession. In particular over the last ten years far more than are needed have qualified.

Parents who are lawyers are often advising their children to do something, anything, else. Other parents who are not lawyers figure they would like to have a lawyer in the family.

On motion days on circuit there are swarms of barristers, where . I do believe that many are attracted to the bar because of the perceived glamour of the profession, swishing around in the gowns and wigs etc.

Also they, or theri parents read of teh atrocious fees paid for tribunal work, and think there is or will be a plentiful suuply of such work.

There is a lot of legal work out there, or at least many who need legal services. However many cannnot pay for such services.

maidhc · 11-05-2011 10:48pm

nuac wrote: »

There is a lot of legal work out there, or at least many who need legal services. However many cannnot pay for such services.

Nail on head.

Businesses are cut to the bone, people are in negative equity with pay cuts (at best), banks are not lending and all the public sector work goes to Arthur Cox (because they offer value for money :cool:). Add that to a general slowdown in Commercial investment, a sharp drop off in family law, the complete inability to collect debts with anything this side of a baseball bat, and quangos like NERA and PIAB hoovering up employment and PI work, and really the legal profession isn't in a good place.

Now Solicitors are bailing out the SMDF, and God knows what wonderful surprise is in store next november with th Law Society's "master policy".

... and the IMF want reform and a reduction in fees (presumably because they only get to see Arthur Cox/William Fry/MOP/McCann Fitz/etc fee notes that the public sector pay happily)

johnnyskeleton · 11-05-2011 11:17pm

nuac wrote: »

There is over supply in both branches of the profession. In particular over the last ten years far more than are needed have qualified.

That there has been a large increase in the number of lawyers is not disputed. Whether the number of lawyers is too few, too many or just the right amount is a matter of opinion.

Again, there is no dispute that in many areas the level of fees has decreased dramatically. However, whether that means the legal industry is an attractive proposition or not again depends on your point of view. Unfortunately, there is no published material on the position of many of the country's barristers and solicitors as regards the viability of their practices, but on the other hand there appear to be a large number of barristers who have remained in practice over the last few years or certainly there hasn't been any well publicised attrition from the bar, which I suppose speaks for itself.

As to swarms of barristers on motion days, I'm not quite sure what the point is there, but just because they do a motion or two on circuit does not mean that they don't have other more lucrative work during the rest of the week.

As regards perceived glamour, it always struck me that the people who wanted to earn the big bucks closing big deals and dealing with complex matters went the solicitor route, while the people who were a bit more eccentric went the barrister route. It may seem in retospect that barristerrin' is more profitable and more glamourous in recent years, but before that again it was the other way around.

There are no certainties one way or the other, and it is almost impossible to discuss this topic without a descent into recriminations and allegations of bias. People with a negative view of the professions may be accused of trying to discourage competition; those with a positive view are accused (I kid you not) of trying to pimp grind courses or some other ulterior motive.

So perhaps it is best to stick to common ground: it is a hard profession to survive in, but there is, and will always be in a democracy, a need for the legal profession.

evercloserunion · 12-05-2011 3:15pm

but the fact that they keep on coming suggests at a mimimum that there is work there.

I don't think this follows. People don't always have all the facts, and sometimes they don't even think entirely rationally. They don't wait until they know that they will have work before going to the bar.

Jo King · 12-05-2011 5:19pm

It is almost impossible to know the position with regard to barristers. There are many names appearing in legal directories who have not practised in years and others who do little or no work as practitioners. There are rumours that many practitioners have not paid a subscription to the Law Library but are still counted in amongst those in practice.

johnnyskeleton · 12-05-2011 9:00pm

evercloserunion wrote: »

I don't think this follows. People don't always have all the facts, and sometimes they don't even think entirely rationally. They don't wait until they know that they will have work before going to the bar.

So youre suggesting that the people who are coming to the bar at present are either ignorant or irrational? This is despite the fairly clear warnings that are given to them at every stage, particularly during their training in the Kings Inns?

Jo King wrote: »

It is almost impossible to know the position with regard to barristers. There are many names appearing in legal directories who have not practised in years and others who do little or no work as practitioners. There are rumours that many practitioners have not paid a subscription to the Law Library but are still counted in amongst those in practice.

I'd agree with you that it is impossible to tell, which is why I don't think it is right that people will assert as an almost undeniable certainty, that there is no future for the bar or that it is impossible to make it without connections etc. It is undoubtedly a very tough career path, but it is possible to succeed at it.

nuac · 12-05-2011 10:02pm

Johnny Skeleton

My views are based on over 40 years solicitor's practice in the West.

My comment about swarms of barristers at Motion Courts is based on observation, my knowledge that many do not have many other briefs, and that quite a number leave the bar.

You mention solicitors and big deals. None such around, One does have many clients in big trouble, but with no cash for fees.

About why so many start in law.

1. Parental pressure

I have met many parents over the years seeking apprenticeships for children or seeking views about a career at the bar.

In some cases on meeting the offspringI found that they were not really interested, or did not realise how difficult it is.

2 Legal educational establishments

All the universities and colleges of all descriptions have ramped up the number of their law courses. Some advertise that entering the legal course in their institution is practically a guarantee of riches without effort.
Complete over sell.

I spoke at an open day of one of these institutions years ago, and pointed out the realities of law as I saw them. Some of the law lecturers there disagreed with my view. None of them had any practice experience to my knowledge

Maybe the bar are not under such pressure - overheads insurance and regulation not as onerous.

I never saw such pessimism amongst solicitors.

nuac · 12-05-2011 10:19pm

Maidhc

I agree with your observations re the legal scene.

The offices of the Big 5 in Dublin will soon collapse from the weight of chinese walls.

I had a transaction with clients of one of those practices some years ago. The same solicitors in that firm acted for the purchasing company, and for both of the banks providing the finance. I gather this is common.

Opportunity in the Legal Sector

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