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Yellow on smoke paper

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  • 28-12-2013 4:23pm
    #1
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Was at a sooted up warm flow today (worst I had ever seen) Anyway cleaned it etc. and changed the .65 80s for a
    .65. 60s as per MI. kept getting yellow on smoke paper. Changed back to 80Degrees and ok.

    Is that yellow caused by flame impingement and therefore unburnt oil?

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



«13

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    #2
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Wearb wrote: »
    Was at a sooted up warm flow today (worst I had ever seen) Anyway cleaned it etc. and changed the .65 80s for a
    .65. 60s as per MI. kept getting yellow on smoke paper. Changed back to 80Degrees and ok.

    Is that yellow caused by flame impingement and therefore unburnt oil?
    Warmflow's should be 60ES Nozzles, not S


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    #3
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Warmflow's should be 60ES Nozzles, not S

    Only had an s in the box. Would that have caused the yellowing?

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #4
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Wearb wrote: »
    Only had an s in the box. Would that have caused the yellowing?

    Aye, too much fuel for the combustion chamber to handle.
    If you don't have the correct nozzle to hand, don't change it until you can return with the correct one.
    Always ask a new customer for their boiler make & model & always keep a note of existing customer's. I keep them on my phone for each customer. That way I always have the correct nozzle before going there.


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    #5
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Wearb wrote: »
    Only had an s in the box. Would that have caused the yellowing?

    Yellowing ( if that's a word ? ) is caused by un burnt oil vapor. Over aired, not 100% proper combustion. On WARMFLOW HE boilers I personal think there is not enough free air space around baffles to allow for easy perfect combustion, to much resistance.
    If boiler has an oily sutty coating I've often had to tune it slightly over aired after cleaning and let heat and time burn off last of oily substance overnight and call back next day for proper fine tuning.
    On the baffles issue, I've personal found if you bend the corners back on opposite plates, 2 to the front,2 to the back, and so on it reduces the resistance and gives an easier burning with way less back pressure compared to the flat baffles with little air gaps. Never had any problems once I done this. Again, this is only my experience. I've told this to other service eng. and he also found a great difference.


    Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
    S v ES
    H v EH
    60 v 80
    Smaller nozzles at higher pressure, bigger nozzles at lower pressure.
    ( ps yes I do know the difference and the reasons why,)
    But If I get the boiler running 100% then I'm happy.

    Sometimes you have to play around with different ones to get it right.
    New nozzle can also be faulty so also bear that factor in.
    Only time and experience + a few headaches will teach you this, eventual it gets easier.

    It doesn't cost much to have a good large mix of the usual nozzle sizes and types. The'll never go to waste.


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    #6
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    scudo2 wrote: »
    Yellowing ( if that's a word ? ) is caused by un burnt oil vapor. Over aired. On WARMFLOW HE boilers I personal think there is not enough free air space around baffles to allow for easy perfect combustion, to much resistance.
    If boiler has an oily sutty coating I've often had to tune it slightly over aired after cleaning and let heat and time burn off last of oily substance overnight and call back next day for proper fine tuning.
    On the baffles issue, I've personal found if you bend the corners back on opposite plates, 2 to the front,2 to the back, and so on it reduces the resistance and gives an easier burning with way less back pressure compared to the flat baffles with little air gaps. Never had any problems once I done this. Again, this is only my experience. I've told this to other service eng. and he also found a great difference.


    Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
    S v ES
    H v EH
    60 v 80

    Sometimes you have to play around with different ones to get it right.
    New nozzle can also be faulty so also bear that factor in.

    It doesn't cost much to have a good mix of the usual nozzle sizes and types. The'll never go to waste.

    Thanks Scudo. I usually have lots of nozzles, but a delivery ordered before Christmas hasn't arrived yet.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #7
    agusta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,590 ✭✭✭agusta


    scudo2 wrote: »
    Yellowing ( if that's a word ? ) is caused by un burnt oil vapor. Over aired, not 100% proper combustion. On WARMFLOW HE boilers I personal think there is not enough free air space around baffles to allow for easy perfect combustion, to much resistance.
    If boiler has an oily sutty coating I've often had to tune it slightly over aired after cleaning and let heat and time burn off last of oily substance overnight and call back next day for proper fine tuning.
    On the baffles issue, I've personal found if you bend the corners back on opposite plates, 2 to the front,2 to the back, and so on it reduces the resistance and gives an easier burning with way less back pressure compared to the flat baffles with little air gaps. Never had any problems once I done this. Again, this is only my experience. I've told this to other service eng. and he also found a great difference.


    Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
    S v ES
    H v EH
    60 v 80
    Smaller nozzles at higher pressure, bigger nozzles at lower pressure.
    ( ps yes I do know the difference and the reasons why,)
    But If I get the boiler running 100% then I'm happy.

    Sometimes you have to play around with different ones to get it right.
    New nozzle can also be faulty so also bear that factor in.
    Only time and experience + a few headaches will teach you this, eventual it gets easier.

    It doesn't cost much to have a good large mix of the usual nozzle sizes and types. The'll never go to waste.
    Do you have any issue changing a 60 degree nozzle to a 80


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    #8
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    agusta wrote: »
    Do you have any issue changing a 60 degree nozzle to a 80 degree nozzle or would you gauge it by chamber size etc..,thanks

    I know I wasn't asked the question, but I always try and stick to MI and only try different angles when ALL else fails. I would try a 60H instead of a 60S before trying different angles.
    I am not as experienced as Scudo though.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #9
    esox28
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭esox28


    if you run outa eh/es kero nozzles you can drop .05gph to hollow or solid.

    As scudo rightly said
    Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
    S v ES
    H v EH
    60 v 80
    Smaller nozzles at higher pressure, bigger nozzles at lower pressure.
    ( ps yes I do know the difference and the reasons why,)
    But If I get the boiler running 100% then I'm happy


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    #10
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Wearb wrote: »
    Thanks Scudo. I usually have lots of nozzles, but a delivery ordered before Christmas hasn't arrived yet.

    Its hard to keep everything for everything.

    Easy for me as I only do oil , saying that, I've €100s on obsolete parts lying in my store !
    Anybody need Grant/Ecoflam Minor 1s motors X 12 !!
    Blast tubes X 25
    Transformers X 8
    + a ton of crap.

    ps. Air bands now available from Firebird


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    #11
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭jimf


    was this he boiler because I usually find these grossly overaired the reasons shane covered here before

    so overaired would deff lead to impingement and bad atomization air damper settings can be as low 1.5 /2 on some


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    #12
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    jimf wrote: »
    was this he boiler because I usually find these grossly overaired the reasons shane covered here before

    so overaired would deff lead to impingement and bad atomization air damper settings can be as low 1.5 /2 on some

    SE Warmflow 70/90 boilerhouse. 5.6 o2. 34% xs air. Strange thing about those boilers is if you were to go by combustion chamber size, you would opt for a 80 degree nozzle. Last service man on it may have been on to something with his 80degree nozzle.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #13
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Wearb wrote: »
    SE Warmflow 70/90 boilerhouse. 5.6 o2. 34% xs air. Strange thing about those boilers is if you were to go by combustion chamber size, you would opt for a 80 degree nozzle. Last service man on it may have been on to something with his 80degree nozzle.
    SE Boilers, if you get it burning 100% then your ok, no matter what nozzle or who was there before, unless it was me of course!!


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    #14
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭jimf


    the detail I have for this is .65x60s at 8bar set at mid range


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    #15
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Wearb wrote: »
    SE Warmflow 70/90 boilerhouse. 5.6 o2. 34% xs air. Strange thing about those boilers is if you were to go by combustion chamber size, you would opt for a 80 degree nozzle. Last service man on it may have been on to something with his 80degree nozzle.
    I have never fitted anything but 60ES on Warmflow's.
    As soon as you go outside MI's you are inheriting any problem caused by that appliance whether the problem was due to your action or not.

    Manufacturers spend years testing every nozzle, every baffle, every component associated with that boiler. They test to see if they change x, how will it affect a, b and c with defined testing measurements.

    So by us, thinking we can just make an adjustment outside their instructions & pat ourselves on our backs for obtaining a perceived result maybe pre-mature. We have to also remember how that adjustment outside their instructions will react under all affecting conditions such as air temps, wind conditions, etc.

    Stick to MI's & you will never have a finger pointing at you. I personally do not have the laboratories & testing equipment that manufacturers have, nor do I have the expertise that they possess to interpret the results.

    Take a free training day at Grants but ask them to show you their labs & I guarantee, you won't step outside MI's again!


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    #16
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jimf wrote: »
    the detail I have for this is .65x60s at 8bar set at mid range

    All Warmflow MI's I have are 60ES.


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    #17
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭jimf


    just as this question has come up can I get your opinions please most of the mi we have to hand are based on rdb burners being fitted but a lot of the time you will find an riello 40 g3 fitted

    do ye think this makes a difference to the specs am I thinking through my rear orifice again


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    #18
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jimf wrote: »
    just as this question has come up can I get your opinions please most of the mi we have to hand are based on rdb burners being fitted but a lot of the time you will find an riello 40 g3 fitted

    do ye think this makes a difference to the specs am I thinking through my rear orifice again
    There is very little difference between the 2 burners. They only use the RDB's with their boilers so you should check with their Technical Support for individual boiler model advice.

    The main "watch out" difference will be the air box & the blast tube type, the latter changing between nearly every boiler output range.


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    #19
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭jimf


    shane0007 wrote: »
    There is very little difference between the 2 burners. They only lost the RDB's with their boilers so you should check with their Technical Support for individual boiler model advice.

    The main "watch out" difference will be the air box & the blast tube type, the latter changing between nearly every boiler output range.


    ta shane just something I often meant to ask


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    #20
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭jimf


    shane0007 wrote: »
    All Warmflow MI's I have are 60ES.

    listing I have shane is 6.2 jan 04 whats yours mine maybe way out date


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    #21
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jimf wrote: »
    ta shane just something I often meant to ask
    Many boilers will have very little reaction to changes from one blast tube to another, however, the Warmflow chambers can be very tricky little buggers throwing up all sorts of weird things under differing conditions.
    It is therefore always best to stick to MI's with these ones & funny enough, they run pretty well on them.

    The FB HE counter-part is a different story of course. A bit of self healing wouldn't go astray with them. Perhaps they need to go to one of those evening meetings & stand up in front of the room to announce a few realisations!


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    #22
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    shane0007 wrote: »
    I have never fitted anything but 60ES on Warmflow's.
    As soon as you go outside MI's you are inheriting any problem caused by that appliance whether the problem was due to your action or not.

    Manufacturers spend years testing every nozzle, every baffle, every component associated with that boiler. They test to see if they change x, how will it affect a, b and c with defined testing measurements.

    So by us, thinking we can just make an adjustment outside their instructions & pat ourselves on our backs for obtaining a perceived result may be pre-mature. We have to also remember how that adjustment outside their instructions will react under all affecting conditions such as air temps, wind conditions, etc.

    Stick to MI's & you will never have a finger pointing at you. I personally do not have the laboratories & testing equipment that manufacturers have not do I have the expertise that have possess to interpret the results.

    Take a free training day at Grants but ask them to show you their labs & I guarantee, you won't step outside MI's again!

    Very difficult to disagree with any of that Shane.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #23
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Anything I post is from personal experience and only trying to help you all with my totaly personal experience. It up to you if input helps.
    At the end of day all opinions are a good idea and of help.
    Manufactures normally make good boilers and good guide lines.
    But it us out in the field that have to fix them after others !

    Have fun.

    Who can ask for better if you get it efficient and burning 100%


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    #24
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jimf wrote: »
    listing I have shane is 6.2 jan 04 whats yours mine maybe way out date

    http://warmflow.tpsrv.co.uk//media/1332429868SEmanual.pdf

    PDF Page 26


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    #25
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    jimf wrote: »
    listing I have shane is 6.2 jan 04 whats yours mine maybe way out date

    That is the newest one I could find also Jim. What one are you working off Shane?

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #26
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭jimf


    scudo2 wrote: »
    Anything I post is from personal experience and only trying to help you all with my totaly personal experience. It up to you if input helps.
    At the end of day all opinions are a good idea and of help.
    Manufactures normally make good boilers and good guide lines.
    But it us out in the field that have to fix them after others !

    Have fun.

    Who can ask for better if you get it efficient and burning 100%

    this is why I think you have to at least have the proper nozzle and pump pressure as a start point scudo which is why mi are so important to have to hand there are so many service guys going around with a few .60 and .65 x80 nozzles and they fit everything


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    #27
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    shane0007 wrote: »
    http://warmflow.tpsrv.co.uk//media/1332429868SEmanual.pdf

    PDF Page 26

    I came across that one, but it doesn't have the 70/90 (Bluebird I think) series.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #28
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    The big problem I think may be that boiler servicing is normally a 1 man on the boiler job. So hard to get experience without trial and error over the years + as many cources that you can go to.
    Its the fools who think they know it all after a few weeks that are a danger,
    I know more now than I did 20 years ago and will hopefully know more in 20 more years.
    This goes for everything in life in my opinion.


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    #29
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,734 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    scudo2 wrote: »
    Anything I post is from personal experience and only trying to help you all with my totaly personal experience. It up to you if input helps.
    At the end of day all opinions are a good idea and of help.
    Manufactures normally make good boilers and good guide lines.
    But it us out in the field that have to fix them after others !

    Have fun.

    Who can ask for better if you get it efficient and burning 100%

    I think its a bit of both following the MI's and being out in the field fixing them. Remember the first warmflow HE I came across with high CO. Nearly drove me mad. Even rang their riello and warmflow tech. Everything was by the book. Increase the air they told me! Only as a last gasp effort did I call into Metac and had a chat with a lad in there who sorted it in seconds ;)


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    #30
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭jimf


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    I think its a bit of both following the MI's and being out in the field fixing them. Remember the first warmflow HE I came across with high CO. Nearly drove me mad. Even rang their riello and warmflow tech. Everything was by the book. Increase the air they told me! Only as a last gasp effort did I call into Metac and had a chat with a lad in there who sorted it in seconds ;)


    some nice chaps in that place very helpful :D:D


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    #31
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,734 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    jimf wrote: »
    some nice chaps in that place very helpful :D:D

    Well he saved me buying a 14lb sledge :)


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