What is The Free World Charter?

SupaNova · 08-03-2011 4:39pm

Socialism leads to mass starvation? please

Replace Socialism with Marxism if you like.

A moneyless centrally planned economy will lead to mass starvation.

silkfield · 08-03-2011 5:03pm

SupaNova wrote: »

No its not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

This Zeitgeist Movement is a cult, a religion. Peter Joseph is the cult leader, believe what he tells you, because everyone else just cannot see what is going on in the world. Do not bother to do any research, all other sources bar Fresco only contain thought stuck within their own boxes.

The monetary system is a cult, a religion. The bank is the cult leader, believe what he tells you, because everyone else just cannot see what is going on in the world. Do not bother to do any research, all other sources bar Fresco only contain thought stuck within their own boxes.

sensibleken · 08-03-2011 5:04pm

Does anyone else smell a mass suicide in the offing?

silkfield · 08-03-2011 5:13pm

I don't much care for Mr. Joseph; and 'Zeitgeist, The Movie' has done a lot of irreparable damage to the good work of Jacque Fresco.

Part of the reason I have started The Free World Charter is because I disagree with PJ's 'conspiratorial' approach. The other part of the reason is that I think The Venus Project is over complex and looks too much like a cheesy Star Trek set. (As many of you have been keen to mention!) It is just too in-credible for most people.

Both approaches have serious drawbacks in my opinion. That is why I am distancing myself from them. You will notice my website is clean, neutral and simple. This, I hope, is the approach that will win out if this initiative is ever to get off the ground.

SupaNova · 08-03-2011 5:16pm

The monetary system is a cult

Whats a monetary system?

silkfield · 08-03-2011 8:01pm

SupaNova wrote: »

Whats a monetary system?

A system of trade using money. Every socio-economic in the World today uses money, capitalist, communist, socialist, whatever.

Nowadays, money IS debt. Google 'Money As Debt' and you'll soon discover why the system is so dysfunctional. There is more debt in the world than there is money. If you tried to pay back every loan in the world with all the money in the world, there isn't nearly enough. And interest just keeps growing and growing.

At the very least (notwithstanding my proposal), our world economy is heading for one drastic 'reset' that's going to cause economic mayhem.

People talk of Ireland defaulting. We're not the only ones. Once one country goes, they will fall like dominoes. The American Dollar is on the brink of collapse too.

Maybe you don't want to sign a Charter that costs you nothing, can do no harm, and may hedge your bets against the future, but at least go stock up on some tinned food and water for the long economic Winter ahead!

sink · 09-03-2011 12:00am

20Cent wrote: »

The speed of progress in technology is moving at a very fast rate and it is getting faster all the time. A computer with abilities many times greater than the human brain is predicted within the next decade. What such a machine could design, invent fix is beyond what we know now. A huge change in how we think about society is not so unbelievable.

This is going completely OT but I have to make comment. You will mostly find that people who are predicting breakthroughs in AI of human level intelligence anytime in the near future to be from the fields relating to computer science and other more hard sciences (e.g. physics). These claims may seem reasonable to an outside observer. However ask anyone who studies actual human and other biological intelligences and you will find deep scepticism at almost every turn. We know so little about the neurological and psychological process that go on inside the brain that we cannot hope to replicate it any-time soon.

There is little doubt that computers will continue to get faster and faster as time progresses so that in 10 years they will be up to one hundred times faster. However AI is based more on programming than it is raw number crunching, and until we can properly describe how we think we have no hope in programming a computer to think as we think let alone better than we think.

Denerick · 09-03-2011 12:51am

20Cent wrote: »

The speed of progress in technology is moving at a very fast rate and it is getting faster all the time. A computer with abilities many times greater than the human brain is predicted within the next decade. What such a machine could design, invent fix is beyond what we know now. A huge change in how we think about society is not so unbelievable.

Perhaps. Frankly I want the humans to be designing the next generation of computers, not the computers. Didn't you see Terminator?

Denerick · 09-03-2011 12:54am

sensibleken wrote: »

Does anyone else smell a mass suicide in the offing?

I PMed him to tell him that he is a leader of a cult, not a political ideology. And that a cult requires followers. Tragically, he hasn't got any.

Valmont · 09-03-2011 1:26am

You've got it all wrong, silkfield. I am not defending the current system in the slightest; I'm trying to point out that your mad spaceman free-for-all is matched only in its stupidity by the strange fact that it actually has proponents such as yourself telling us that we can have one hundred ipads each and free pizza if we only ignore all of our reason and take a great leap of faith forward with you into the future.

It is illogical and fallacious to use the failures of the current system to somehow prove your mad pizza-fest is the way forward- this type of argument doesn't make any sense.

As much as I like pizza, no thank you. This is an utterly insane idea and it will never amount to anything.

Valmont · 09-03-2011 1:29am

sink wrote: »

However ask anyone who studies actual human and other biological intelligences and you will find deep skepticism at almost every turn. We know so little about the neurological and psychological process that go on inside the brain that we cannot hope to replicate it any-time soon.

Currently on a placement in said area, can confirm doubts.

silkfield · 09-03-2011 1:52am

One has only to skim over Boards to find out why this country is in such a mess. It is populated with short-term self-interested greedy people who don't even understand the concept of a 'bigger picture', let alone want to entertain such an idea.

Also, your lack of faith in human nature is worrying. Out of all the people you know in your life for example, how many of them would you really trust? (I sincerely hope your answer, like mine, is the vast majority!) Those are just the people you know, but everyone you DON'T know is just a person more or less like you with the same hopes and dreams, you just haven't met them. We like to kid ourselves that we're all different, but actually we're not.

I won't bother you any more with this stuff, but do try and remember there is a whole world out there and everyone on it is connected whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, survival is the goal. But without technology, we won't survive into the far future. We will over-populate, consume and spoil the planet recklessly, and either eat, shoot or blow-up each other. (This has already started BTW)

The best way to release useful technology is to remove all cost restraints. Then it doesn't have to justify itself financially, it just has to be useful. This technology can provide the most efficient energy, agriculture, education, medicines, transport, water systems, the likes of which live mostly on drawings now because they are financially impractical to build.

If you genuinely believe that our mankind's future is secure in our current economic system of cyclical debt, 'death-by-poverty' and uncontrolled pollution then you need to think again.

That's my last word on it guys. http://www.freeworldcharter.org

Oh and I nearly forgot to mention, if you want in on the cult I can get you in for a mere €25,000, (female blonde virgins €5,000) Just bring along your bank details and passport and we'll sort out the details...

Denerick · 09-03-2011 2:35am

silkfield wrote: »

One has only to skim over Boards to find out why this country is in such a mess. It is populated with short-term self-interested greedy people who don't even understand the concept of a 'bigger picture', let alone want to entertain such an idea.

I've read too much history, politics and literature to let myself be deluded by utopianism.

Also, your lack of faith in human nature is worrying. Out of all the people you know in your life for example, how many of them would you really trust?

At a stretch... three...

I won't bother you any more with this stuff, but do try and remember there is a whole world out there and everyone on it is connected whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, survival is the goal. But without technology, we won't survive into the far future. We will over-populate, consume and spoil the planet recklessly, and either eat, shoot or blow-up each other. (This has already started BTW)

There is a weird strain of messianism in your posts, an unfluttering belief that technology will eliminate scarcity and dramatically improve standards of living. This is simply not consistent with the facts. once you stray from facts and enter prophecy/religion you are ripe for ridicule.

The best way to release useful technology is to remove all cost restraints. Then it doesn't have to justify itself financially, it just has to be useful. This technology can provide the most efficient energy, agriculture, education, medicines, transport, water systems, the likes of which live mostly on drawings now because they are financially impractical to build.

'Cost restraints' is a nonsense argument. The past century is evidence of the 'demand and supply' fundamental of economics. If enough demand is generated for some technological device (Ranging from the motor car to the humble toaster) then it will be provided at increasingly cheaper rates. Technology is one of the few areas of economics that seems to utterly defy basic understandings of inflation. You can buy a toaster for 3 euro in lidyl. You can be connected with billions of people with a broadband connection for a mere 30 euro a month. All of this is affordable. I wonder how much you really understand economics. How, for example, will you compell a broadband technician to maintain international communication systems without remuneration? What will motivate him? Will he be able to simply leave his job some morning in order to play video games for the rest of his life? Who will support these legions of people sitting at home, getting drunk, having wild parties?

I don't know why I bother arguing this point, you are literally a majority of one.

If you genuinely believe that our mankind's future is secure in our current economic system of cyclical debt, 'death-by-poverty' and uncontrolled pollution then you need to think again.

Yet the present system has over the last 100 years led to revolutionary advances in medicine, technology, theoretical physics, literacy, healthcare, education, food provision, disease prevention, communications... (And so on ad naseum)

The world isn't perfect. Thats kind of the point.

Just read Hobbes or Locke or someone man. Seriously.

20Cent · 09-03-2011 8:39am

Denerick wrote: »

Perhaps. Frankly I want the humans to be designing the next generation of computers, not the computers. Didn't you see Terminator?

Yep that is a danger.
But do you not think its possible?
If it can happen is usually does eventually.

sensibleken · 09-03-2011 10:35am

silkfield wrote: »

One has only to skim over Boards to find out why this country is in such a mess.

Can we agree on a boards wide ban on the phrase 'no wonder this country is in such a mess' its used to support any mad idea the OP can think of.

'no wonder this place is in sush a mess if youre going to be watching eastenders'

'no wonder the country is in such a mess if your going to drink carlsberg'

'no wonder the country is in such a mess if your only buying medicine for yourself'

Its PC gone mad i tell ya

Denerick · 09-03-2011 2:11pm

20Cent wrote: »

Yep that is a danger.
But do you not think its possible?
If it can happen is usually does eventually.

We've been capable of destroying ourselves via nuclear armageddon yet that hasn't happened.. yet.

I don't know if its possible or not. I'm not a scientist and know very little about these things.

SupaNova · 09-03-2011 3:46pm

We will over-populate, consume and spoil the planet recklessly, and either eat, shoot or blow-up each other. (This has already started BTW)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTznEIZRkLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpKbO6O3O3M&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUwS1uAdUcI&feature=relmfu

There is all sorts of research into population and where its going. There is lots of research being done on the environment and massive increased awareness over the past decade. Have you listened to anyone besides Fresco?

Are we really going to eat each other?

As for a nuclear war? Not likely.

RussellTuring · 09-03-2011 7:01pm

silkfield wrote: »

One has only to skim over Boards to find out why this country is in such a mess. It is populated with short-term self-interested greedy people who don't even understand the concept of a 'bigger picture', let alone want to entertain such an idea.

The entire world is full of such people. Everyone has these traits to some degree. You need some perspective.

Also, your lack of faith in human nature is worrying. Out of all the people you know in your life for example, how many of them would you really trust? (I sincerely hope your answer, like mine, is the vast majority!) Those are just the people you know, but everyone you DON'T know is just a person more or less like you with the same hopes and dreams, you just haven't met them. We like to kid ourselves that we're all different, but actually we're not.

Honestly, I don't absolutely trust anyone. I trust certain people to certain degrees more out of experience and necessity than a belief that everyone is inherently good or bad. The whole "human nature" argument is a weak one. There is no such thing. Is it human nature to be greedy/generous, forgiving/vengeful or altruistic/selfish? It is not any of these since we can all be these things at different times to different people.

Also, it is hard for people to conceive of others outside their own social group. That's why we don't care as much about a thousand people dying in an earthquake across the world as we do about someone we know. This makes it very hard for people to empathise with others we don't know. We couldn't possibly meet everyone else in the world and become their friend, so until you address this, people are going to look after their own first.

I won't bother you any more with this stuff, but do try and remember there is a whole world out there and everyone on it is connected whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, survival is the goal. But without technology, we won't survive into the far future. We will over-populate, consume and spoil the planet recklessly, and either eat, shoot or blow-up each other. (This has already started BTW)

Yes we are all connected but what is your point? And you're just prophesying at this stage.

The best way to release useful technology is to remove all cost restraints. Then it doesn't have to justify itself financially, it just has to be useful. This technology can provide the most efficient energy, agriculture, education, medicines, transport, water systems, the likes of which live mostly on drawings now because they are financially impractical to build.

I by and large agree, practical matters aside. But that doesn't make the Venus Project the one and only way forward.

If you genuinely believe that our mankind's future is secure in our current economic system of cyclical debt, 'death-by-poverty' and uncontrolled pollution then you need to think again.

If you can offer an alternative, state your case and try to convince us. And saying that we should try it because it's not what we're doing is a logical fallacy. And I hate those.

silkfield · 30-04-2011 4:34pm

Total signatories: 3,553 in 109 countries since March 5, 2011.
(533 new signatories in the last 24 hours - Currently averaging a new signature every 162 seconds)

http://www.freeworldcharter.org/?a=list

SupaNova · 30-04-2011 5:31pm

People need to work to get something in return, it is still a fact of life. If you cannot see the benefit of having a median of exchange you are a lost cause. If a fisherman wants an iPad, but the people producing the iPads don't want fish but want beer, it means he can't have an iPad unless he can swap his fish for beer. The argument that we have machines to provide us everything for free so we can therefore abandon money has no basis in reality.

You seem to have put some time into this given you have an ok looking website and decent looking video, but i really hope you realize how stupid this is and use your time to do something more constructive. You could be working with charity and directly helping people. You could be working to get a degree that would allow you to get a job in the lines of creating better technology in the field of robotics. But instead you are wasting time trying to convince people that we have robots to do everything for us and don't need money.

silkfield · 30-04-2011 6:01pm

@SupaNova: Some people will take longer to come around to this way of thinking, but this is the future, ridiculous as it may seem to you now. You need to think about it more. Money is a motivation to survive, not to work. If we remove the necessity for money to survive, people will work because they want to excel at their particular skill, and contribute to society.

If you don't agree with or understand this yet, then please at least make sure you don't stand in the way of people who do.

Denerick · 30-04-2011 7:04pm

silkfield wrote: »

Total signatories: 3,553 in 109 countries since March 5, 2011.
(533 new signatories in the last 24 hours - Currently averaging a new signature every 162 seconds)

http://www.freeworldcharter.org/?a=list

If I put up a website demanding free ice cream and chocolate to deprived third world children, I would get signatures in the million.

3,553 signatures for a wooly utopian fantasy is pretty weak to be honest.

silkfield · 30-04-2011 7:40pm

@Denerick: See above

Denerick · 30-04-2011 7:49pm

silkfield wrote: »

@Denerick: See above

Have you yet considered that the reason that people scoff and laugh at this idea is not because 'they haven't come round to the divinely ordained 'right' way of thinking yet' but because your idea is fundamentally silly?

ei.sdraob · 30-04-2011 7:52pm

silkfield wrote: »

There is no limit to the amount of energy we can produce once you remove the highly invested trade patterns of fossil fuels. Wind, solar, tidal, wave, geo-thermal. There is effectively an infinite supply of energy all around us. To harness all these energies just does not make financial sense right now. That is why we need to remove that limitation. The monetary system is the only limitation to infinite energy.

So if there is no money then windmills/powerplants/etc will spring out of the ground? is that why North Korea is a world leader in energy production??

silkfield · 30-04-2011 8:21pm

Every person who answers this thread puts up barriers, questions and resistance before even trying to apply their own imagination or logic to it.

Do you not even try to answer your own question or figure it out before you jump on to put the idea down? Is putting down the idea so much more satisfying to your ego than actually seriously considering something which may affect the survival of humanity? Are you that lost in the human fallacy of being 'outside' nature?

Wake up to yourselves! Use that amazingly complex organ between your ears and apply your thoughts constructively for a change!

I can't possibly deal with every obstacle you wish to throw out here. It's not that simple, nor should be treated lightly. Learn for yourselves, Watch the video, read the criticism page, read the 'more info' page, look up The Venus Project, read their FAQs, watch 'Zeitgeist Addendum', trust the opinions of over 500,000 Zeitgeist members around the World, read our signatory comments, join the Free World Facebook group, open your minds.

Open your mind.

ei.sdraob · 30-04-2011 8:28pm

silkfield wrote: »

Open your mind.

I tried watching Zeitgeist with a joint and without, both times I got bored to death of the neocommunist tripe with some antisemitisim and environmentalism sprinkled on top.

Anyways you are starting to sound like one of those preachers who come to the door asking you to book your place in heaven :P

On the brightside you a providing some essential backlinks which will translate into more google search love for these sites... Hmm I wonder do the servers running these sites are powered and paid for by love

ei.sdraob · 30-04-2011 9:00pm

Thanks to whoever posted the lecture earleir in thread

certainly more interesting than zeitgeist!

silkfield · 30-04-2011 10:23pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Thanks to whoever posted the lecture earleir in thread

certainly more interesting than zeitgeist!

I know what you mean about Zeitgeist. I admit it's not the most entertaining piece. That's partly why I started this.

I tried watching some of that lecture you posted but it is so far buried within monetarism and the self-serving pseudo-science of economics that it has absolutely no objectivity or relevance to this topic at all that I can see.

It is difficult for me not to portray myself as some religious zealot defending my initiative, when you plainly cannot see that humanity (that's you and me), is a single part of nature (that's plants, other animals and the universe at large), and lives solely with these other plants and animals in a limited and totally isolated space we call a planet (that's the big blue thing you're standing on). And if we continue to prioritise money (you know what that is) over the fine balance of nature and survival, then we are gradually extinguishing ourselves as a species, and others too.

Choosing money over nature as the top priority in human existence is ultimately suicidal. Do you care about that even? Money (while once useful), is the sole reason for most of the problems we see in the world today. And we have the technology to live without it? Why aren't we doing it?

Because 1) We are juvenile wealth addicts who need to put down the crack-pipe and wake up to reality; 2) We are easily led by people to believe that money is the only deal in town; 3) Humans naturally choose the path of least resistance, in this case, the status quo.

I promise you a World without money is GOING to happen one way or the other. It may not happen in our lifetime, but I hope it does. I just hope we don't annihilate most of our species and ourselves before that does happen.

Keith186 · 30-04-2011 10:36pm

Just spotted the thread now.

I watched Zeitgeist Addendum not too long ago.

Parts were interesting but the alternative proposed i.e. The Venus Project was laughable unfortunately.

I would have loved to have seen a realistic alternative to the current workings of the world but I was very disappointed.

There is no easy answer unfortunately otherwise there'd be more of a movement for it.

Denerick · 30-04-2011 10:51pm

Do you understand what a monetary system is? Essentially its a trust between two or more people. You hand over a universally agreed upon means of exchange - it could be branches of a tree, or dog poo either - in return for goods and services. Money is an invention of man, it will exist in any system. If I lived in your little fantasy world I would still use money in some shape or form, I would still need to exchange stuff with my neighbour in order to subsist - he would get something of mine, I would get something of his.

Your zealous campaign against reason, history and logic is impressive and mildly disturbing.

silkfield · 30-04-2011 11:03pm

Why would you use money in my little fantasy? What would you need it for?

There is a very, very large box, and you're still thinking inside it, my friend!

Denerick · 30-04-2011 11:12pm

silkfield wrote: »

Why would you use money in my little fantasy? What would you need it for?

There is a very, very large box, and you're still thinking inside it, my friend!

Person A walks into the home of person B. Person A needs the lend of some dog food to feed his animal.

"Of course!" says person B. Person B hands over the dog food.

Person A comes back every day for the next 25 years.

"Of course!" says person B.

I feel like I need to use dummies and dolls to explain to you how retarded this whole thing is.

silkfield · 30-04-2011 11:33pm

That's a perfect example, Denerick! Can you not see the point you've missed?

Dog food is freely available. Why would Person A keep calling to Person B for it?

Here's another classic example.. Man walks into a 'free world shop' (or depot) and takes all the Mars bars for himself. Now there's no more Mars bars left for anyone else until next month's delivery. How is that fair?

This raises the questions: How many Mars bars can one guy eat in a month? Why take them all at once? Does that depot need to order more?

The answer is simple. Education. Nowadays people 'grab' stuff because stuff is scarce due of cost. When people learn of the new system and how stuff is free but sometimes just not physically available, then the notion of grabbing will cease.

You might find that hard to believe now, but just imagine instilling these new values into our children's education, how quickly society will change. Even a single generation could change the world forever.

Denerick · 01-05-2011 12:02am

This is like The North Korean communist party official broadcast. 'Everything is fine. Please return to your re-education camps where your gruel will be served cold, as always'.

silkfield · 01-05-2011 12:09am

Denerick wrote: »

This is like The North Korean communist party official broadcast. 'Everything is fine. Please return to your re-education camps where your gruel will be served cold, as always'.

Idiot.

Spudmonkey · 01-05-2011 12:20am

I can't believe this thread has gone on so long.

murphaph · 01-05-2011 11:34am

silkfield wrote: »

No.

Technology has been driven by a large degree by war, whether you like that fact or not. War has forced mankind (very sadly) to perfect methods of mass slaughter and these technological advances then trickle into everyday use. The best example of that may be the medium you are using right now (see below).

It is one of the main reasons given for China's lagging behind Europe, despite at one time being much more advanced. The Chinese empire enjoyed a 1000 year long period of peace, during which time there was no need to develop new weaponry. During the same period Europeans were busy slaughtering each other and developing more and more advanced weapons with which to do it.

It is sad but true that technology is very often driven by war and mistrust of our fellow man. The internet which we use today to communicate is a direct descendant of the United States' Department of Defense Arpanet project. I too am a cynic but would love to imagine a Star Trek like world where nobody needed money to be happy etc. but I just don't believe it's possible because as already stated many times...some people always want more. We cannot force people to make the technology needed to allow everyone else to relax and take it easy.

silkfield · 01-05-2011 12:17pm

silkfield wrote: »

Idiot.

Dear silkfield,

You have received an infraction at boards.ie. This is an automatically generated message.

Reason: Insulted Other Member(s)

Oooooh. Someone went to teacher!

Denerick · 01-05-2011 12:19pm

silkfield wrote: »

Oooooh. Someone went to teacher!

I actually didn't report your post. I don't want you banned, you provide excellent comic relief.

SupaNova · 01-05-2011 1:47pm

That's a perfect example, Denerick! Can you not see the point you've missed?

Dog food is freely available. Why would Person A keep calling to Person B for it?

Here's another classic example.. Man walks into a 'free world shop' (or depot) and takes all the Mars bars for himself. Now there's no more Mars bars left for anyone else until next month's delivery. How is that fair?

Dog food is not freely available. It has to be paid for with money. If we didn't have money we would resort to barter.

If man walks into a shop and grabs all the mars bars without paying he is stealing. If he pays for all the mars bars he's a fatty but hasn't done anything wrong. I doubt this happens and i rarely see stores with empty shelves of Mars bars due to someone eating them all. Stores can adjust prices based on there stock, if they are really low on stock of a non perishable good they can raise the price.

I think your argument is more why is it fair some people have more money to buy more than others?

The answer is simple. Education. Nowadays people 'grab' stuff because stuff is scarce due of cost. When people learn of the new system and how stuff is free but sometimes just not physically available, then the notion of grabbing will cease.

Lol you say scarcity is due to cost. Then you sort of have a brief moment where you realize what scarcity is when you say things are not physically available. Things not being available is scarcity.

You might find that hard to believe now, but just imagine instilling these new values into our children's education, how quickly society will change. Even a single generation could change the world forever.

Instilling what values? All you are doing is spreading garbage.

silkfield · 01-05-2011 2:06pm

SupaNova wrote: »

Dog food is not freely available. It has to be paid for with money. If we didn't have money we would resort to barter.

If man walks into a shop and grabs all the mars bars without paying he is stealing. If he pays for all the mars bars he's a fatty but hasn't done anything wrong. I doubt this happens and i rarely see stores with empty shelves of Mars bars due to someone eating them all. Stores can adjust prices based on there stock, if they are really low on stock of a non perishable good they can raise the price.

I think your argument is more why is it fair some people have more money to buy more than others?

Lol you say scarcity is due to cost. Then you sort of have a brief moment where you realize what scarcity is when you say things are not physically available. Things not being available is scarcity.

Instilling what values? All you are doing is spreading garbage.

You plainly have no grasp of the ideas I am presenting here. You are just wasting both of our times and energy. If you want to debate, then please at least watch the video, familiarise yourself with the subject matter, and then ask me some credible relevant questions.

If you simply skim the information I have presented it will appear like garbage. I can see that. Until you open your mind to the even the slightest possibility of there being an alternative future for humanity, you will not 'get' this. You have been conditioned from birth to believe there is only one system. You have been bombarded with it since you first became self-aware. You need to unplug yourself, or at least admit that some of what you see may not be the full story.

Ask me some insightful questions, or find another thread to berate.

Denerick · 01-05-2011 2:14pm

Do you understand how human interaction works? If there is no demand for dog food then none will be produced. You say everything will be plentiful (Including dog food) without suggesting how it would be produced, distributed. You ignore the issue of variety; some dog foods have higher nutritional content, others have specific dietary requirements. Then you go on to say it will be 'freely available', without saying how.

Unless you provide evidence that you do in fact own a 'God machine', that will make everything available instantaneously, we will continue to mock and berate you.

SupaNova · 01-05-2011 2:27pm

I tried watching some of that lecture you posted but it is so far buried within monetarism and the self-serving pseudo-science of economics that it has absolutely no objectivity or relevance to this topic at all that I can see.

That video is definitely relevant, it describes the affect of abandoning money and a market price system. You may be the one that needs to open your mind or start using your brain. I am not surprised you can't understand the video since you can't even understand the simple concept of scarcity.

It was fun but its kinda depressing to see people waste their time with this garbage. Good Luck.

silkfield · 01-05-2011 3:27pm

Denerick wrote: »

Do you understand how human interaction works? If there is no demand for dog food then none will be produced. You say everything will be plentiful (Including dog food) without suggesting how it would be produced, distributed. You ignore the issue of variety; some dog foods have higher nutritional content, others have specific dietary requirements. Then you go on to say it will be 'freely available', without saying how.

Unless you provide evidence that you do in fact own a 'God machine', that will make everything available instantaneously, we will continue to mock and berate you.

If people have dogs, then there is a demand for dog food, yes?

Who makes the dog food? Who? who? who? who?

Since most of our manufacturing processes are automated (or could be automated even more once cost restraints were removed), then it doesn't take very much labour to produce dog food, yes?

If it requires say 10 people to run an automated dog food factory, and there was sufficient demand for dog food, then people with an interest in producing dog food (eg. dog lovers) would have no problems working there in rotation if necessary once all their living needs were met by the community, yes?

(Maybe you're not a dog lover, but I'm sure you can replace this dog food example with something closer to your own interest to see my point)

ei.sdraob · 01-05-2011 3:53pm

murphaph wrote: »

Technology has been driven by a large degree by war, whether you like that fact or not. War has forced mankind (very sadly) to perfect methods of mass slaughter and these technological advances then trickle into everyday use. The best example of that may be the medium you are using right now (see below).

It is one of the main reasons given for China's lagging behind Europe, despite at one time being much more advanced. The Chinese empire enjoyed a 1000 year long period of peace, during which time there was no need to develop new weaponry. During the same period Europeans were busy slaughtering each other and developing more and more advanced weapons with which to do it.

It is sad but true that technology is very often driven by war and mistrust of our fellow man. The internet which we use today to communicate is a direct descendant of the United States' Department of Defense Arpanet project. I too am a cynic but would love to imagine a Star Trek like world where nobody needed money to be happy etc. but I just don't believe it's possible because as already stated many times...some people always want more. We cannot force people to make the technology needed to allow everyone else to relax and take it easy.

Youd like this documentary here > http://www.channel4.com/programmes/civilization-is-the-west-history/4od

should be playable in Ireland with 4OD

ei.sdraob · 01-05-2011 3:55pm

silkfield wrote: »

If people have dogs, then there is a demand for dog food, yes?

Who makes the dog food? Who? who? who? who? Since most of our manufacturing processes are automated (or could be automated even more once cost restraints were removed), then it doesn't take very much labour to produce dog food, yes?

If it requires say 10 people to run an automated dog food factory, and there was sufficient demand for dog food, then people with an interest in producing dog food (eg. dog lovers) would have no problems working there in rotation if necessary once all their living needs were met by the community, yes?

(Maybe you're not a dog lover, but I'm sure you can replace this dog food example with something closer to your own interest to see my point)

Who will design the dog food factory?
Who will maintain the dog food factory?
Why would someone bother making a dog food factory?
Why will someone bother running a dog factory?

Eliot Rosewater · 01-05-2011 3:56pm

silkfield wrote: »

Oooooh. Someone went to teacher!

Someone just got themselves banned for 3 days for personal abuse and bringing up moderation on thread.

/mod.

silkfield · 06-05-2011 3:40am

Thank you all for your engaging discussion and debate. If you want to find out more or discuss further, you can go to the website or Facebook page.

As of writing, the video has received over 22,000 views and the Charter document itself over 5,000 signatories inside two months, which I'm very happy about, needless to say. If you have time, why not have a look through the comments section of those who have signed already.

Dreams such as this are only impossible if you really want them to be. Trust in human nature more. When we are depressurised from financial concerns and the associated maladjustments of our upbringing, we are passive, compassionate and cooperative beings. Think about it: People today from wealthy backgrounds are generally more content and well-adjusted than those from poor backgrounds. Why? Because they experience less financial pressures in life. Think about it. A truly Free World is possible. All we have to do is choose it.

My work here in Boards.ie is done, and I have instructed closure of my account, so I won't be back. Thank you again to all respondents for the discussion.

Soldie · 06-05-2011 10:22am

Are you off to Blisstonia with the rest of the Movementarians?

Your idea is not impossible because I want it to be; it's impossible because it's impossible. You cannot simply wish scarcity out of existence and hope for the best.

What is The Free World Charter?

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