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Church wedding or not?

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  • 18-12-2007 5:22pm
    #1
    jackal
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭


    Hi Lads,
    I would like to know what ye make of this scenario - pretty common situation I imagine...

    Im a baptised catholic, but consider myself atheist. I dont have any religious belief at all. My g/f is also a catholic, and definitely has faith though does not go to mass etc that much. She would like/insist on a church wedding. I on the other hand really dont want to be a hypocrite or lie to a priest, do a marriage course and so on.

    Is there such a thing as a compromise in this situation where she can have what she wants? The only option I can see as a goer at the moment is simply to toe the line for the sake of her beliefs and fake it.

    Thoughts?


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    #2
    Fooz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭Fooz


    I think a lot of people fake it nowadays to be honest...

    As far as I'm aware you are not required to have a mass. Therefore you could opt to go for the marriage bit on its own, thus cutting out most of the ceremony. You might even be able to do that bit as informal as popping into the sacristy to do the necessary but I'm not certain so you'd have to ask a priest. Alternatively you could do a civil wedding somewhere and ask a priest to bless it?

    You have to do the marriage course to get married in the Catholic Church I think. There is a place in Dublin that does the course in about a day. I can get the link for you later if you want. The m.c. sounds like a complete waste of time in this day and age, seeing as most people live together before marriage and know all about cooperation, relationships, managing money and what not.


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    #3
    jackal
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jackal


    Ya, have been living together for years and years, I am really not looking forward to that course if we end up doing it. I have heard some good and some bad. One was an aul wan who was never married giving it the old women know your place routine, which did not go down well. The other was very good: practical and modern by all accounts.

    Think I would crack if it was the former.. my neck twisting 360 and spewing bile all over the place etc.


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    #4
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I'm not a Catholic, but I reckon it would be better if you just did the Registry Office thing. If you've been living together then your girlfriend isn't really that bothered about Catholic teaching so why go through the charade of a church wedding?


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    #5
    dereko1969
    Closed Accounts Posts: 842 ✭✭✭dereko1969


    do the registery office for the legalities and then get a blessing for the 'imaginary friends/religious' angle.


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    #6
    Michael G
    Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Michael G


    jackal wrote: »
    I on the other hand really dont want to be a hypocrite or lie to a priest, do a marriage course and so on.
    Your attitude shows real courtesy and respect for those who do believe and take this seriously, and are offended by sham weddings in Catholic churches, especially when Mass is said.

    It's a difficult situation. If your girlfriend seldom goes to Mass, why is it so important for her to have a Catholic wedding? A possible way out of it would be a civil ceremony followed by a Blessing.


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    #7
    SubjectSean
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭SubjectSean


    Sure if it's what she wants, and you want her, then you may fake it. No choice. And before she is done with you, you may get very used to faking things such as an interest in the colour of the kitchen etc.


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    #8
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    There is a problem with this in a Christian regard. A Christian marriage, is whereby a man and a woman come together to be as one under God. If one does not believe in a God, I don't believe there is a spiritual argument for such a marriage, as a marriage takes two people not one.


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    #9
    ryoishin
    Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    Technically the couple bestow the sacrament on themselves with the priest observing as an offical witness of the church. For example if you have no access to a priest then a lay person could preform the ceromony once they follow the canonical form but in the modern age then that is highly unlikely with danger of death being the only one springing to mind.

    However despite the sacrament the Catholic Church still sees marraige as a civil agreement and a contract and has been criticized for pushing this aspect over the love etc aspect. You could get married by a priest who is marrying you because he is civiling lisenced to and do it wherever you like.

    The Canon of the Catholic Church states that mass is not necessary but when possible a church is most desirable but the Church recognises the right of people to marry and accepts areas of worship, places of sentiment, or other areas fitting to the spirit of the occasion as possible places for the marraige act to take place.

    Get a priest to marry you without mass on a beach or something. He marries you civilly and just happens to be a priest. Job done and mammy and grannes are happy.


    Ive never been on a marraige course but Ive heard from people who give them what some are like. as you say some are dreadful going into homosexual thoughts and have you told your partner and others seem good like going into how to do a budget and even talking about what kind of loans and stuff there are. Theres an emphasis on married people giving the courses now as opposed to a priest or nun.

    Congratulations by the way.


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    #10
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    I was in a similar situation - I'm an atheist (former Catholic but officially renounced my religion), wife is a Catholic. She really wanted a church wedding, I didn't want to be a hypocrite. We decided to try and have a church wedding if I didn't have to pretend to be Catholic. For us it was always going to be the easiest option as both families are Catholic so I'm not sure how they'd react to a civil cermony.

    When we first met with the local priest, I told him I was an atheist and he was fine with it. He had to get dispensation from the bishop to perform a mixed marrige but that didn't seem to be a problem. It was the first time the priest had done anything like that but all went well.

    On the day, I didn't partake in any of the Catholic rituals (nor did my bestman as he's also an atheist), I didn't do the magic blessing of the rings before putting the ring on my wife's finger ... etc, so I was comfortable with the cermony as was my wife.

    The marrige course we did was excellent! I really enjoyed the day and I highly recommend it.


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    #11
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Was actually thinking bout this the other day... I wonder could you come to some arrangement with the priest whereby he refrains from mentioning god, jesus, and so on TOO much. It would probs be a big ask to leave anything religious out of the ceremony at all (if a priest is doing it, in a church), but he might be able to minimise the references at your request. It would probably come down to the individual priest though!


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    #12
    jackal
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jackal


    SubjectSean wrote: »
    Sure if it's what she wants, and you want her, then you may fake it. No choice. And before she is done with you, you may get very used to faking things such as an interest in the colour of the kitchen etc.
    Well I think thats par for the course Sean!

    I dont particularly want to fake it, but at the same time it means alot to her. Just because someone does not go to mass, or lives with their partner before marriage, it does not mean that they dont have a strong christian faith.

    divil_the_bit mentioned a preist that was happy to do it in the full knowledge that one was an atheist. This sounds ideal, but im guessing I would have to be lucky to find such a progressive preist. Its good to know its possible at least. Thanks for the advice!


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    #13
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    DaveMcG wrote: »
    Was actually thinking bout this the other day... I wonder could you come to some arrangement with the priest whereby he refrains from mentioning god, jesus, and so on TOO much. It would probs be a big ask to leave anything religious out of the ceremony at all (if a priest is doing it, in a church), but he might be able to minimise the references at your request. It would probably come down to the individual priest though!

    Or equally you could approach the Humanist Society and ask them to conduct your wedding. If they are progressive they would be happy to include lots of glowing tributes to and professions of faith in, Jesus Christ and the Pope to keep your girlfriend happy, wouldn't they?


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    #14
    ryoishin
    Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    The only reason the priest could refuse the marraige is if he thought that either party was unable to to grasp the concept of marraige (usually applies to children, or maybe mentally disabled but then they would just go on a course coz they still have the right to marry) or because he does nt know you (coz hes supposed to know all the church goers which is just silly) but thats why theres like various meeting and stuff beforeyou marry.

    If you are refused a marraige by a priest you are entitled to appeal to the bishop yourself (and I think even the pope himself). Or you could just apply to the other priest eg the parish were you grew up, your. your spouses parish.

    Really theres no reason you should be refused. None.


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    #15
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    ryoishin wrote: »
    However despite the sacrament the Catholic Church still sees marraige as a civil agreement and a contract and has been criticized for pushing this aspect over the love etc aspect. You could get married by a priest who is marrying you because he is civiling lisenced to and do it wherever you like.

    From my own experience that's not the case - the place has to be licensed as well.

    divil_a_bit's path would seem best, if you can do it.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #16
    ryoishin
    Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    yeah your right there, I was speaking about marraige in a sacramental sense in the Catholic Church, just giving the OP some ammo for his missus.


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    #17
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    From my own experience that's not the case - the place has to be licensed as well.

    I think all it takes to register a building is for 10 families to apply. You can get your extended family to help out and get your garden shed registered if you want.


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    #18
    Sweet Lips
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Sweet Lips


    jackal wrote: »
    Hi Lads,
    I would like to know what ye make of this scenario - pretty common situation I imagine...

    Im a baptised catholic, but consider myself atheist. I dont have any religious belief at all. My g/f is also a catholic, and definitely has faith though does not go to mass etc that much. She would like/insist on a church wedding. I on the other hand really dont want to be a hypocrite or lie to a priest, do a marriage course and so on.

    Is there such a thing as a compromise in this situation where she can have what she wants? The only option I can see as a goer at the moment is simply to toe the line for the sake of her beliefs and fake it.

    Thoughts?
    Where are you from? There is a Celtic Priest living on one of the islands of Galway. I was at a wedding where he did the ceromony and it was lovely! I am not a priest lover either or great belive in the church. He can marry you were ever you want .....


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    #19
    Flukey
    Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    It is also amusing that people spend the whole year bashing Christianity, but seem very happy to go to Christmas parties, accept a Christmas bonus, have their days off at Christmas, receive Christmas presents etc., as well the same at Easter. If they really didn't believe in Christianity, then they wouldn't do any of that on principle, in the same way they refuse to go to any Christian services on principle because, as they would tell you... "I don't believe in any of that rubbish". They can say it is just Catholicism they don't believe in or the church itself, but they can't slip out of it that way. If they don't accept "any" part of Catholicism/Christianity, then they can't make exceptions for Christmas and all that goes with it, along with Easter, or parties for First Communions, Baptisms and Confirmations etc. Anyway, Happy Christmas to everyone.

    It is up to you if you want a church wedding or not, but whichever way you go, follow it up and follow your conscience. If you go for the church wedding, and use those vows, then follow them through and don't let it be your last day there or have your next day there as being some major event.


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    #20
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Flukey wrote: »
    If they really didn't believe in Christianity, then they wouldn't do any of that on principle, in the same way they refuse to go to any Christian services on principle because, as they would tell you... "I don't believe in any of that rubbish".

    To be fair, I think Christmas as it is celebrated in Ireland today has very little to do with Jesus Christ and everything to do with the worship of Mammon.

    Do atheists refuse to go to any Christian services at all? I saw a survey that reported that 12% of atheists in the US attended Church on Easter Sunday 1999 - although Americans are weird.


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    #21
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote:
    To be fair, I think Christmas as it is celebrated in Ireland today has very little to do with Jesus Christ and everything to do with the worship of Mammon.
    A sentiment I recall from the 70's as well as I'm sure you do! And something that Seneca moaned about too, around 50AD:
    Seneca the Younger wrote:
    It is now the month of December, when the greatest part of the city is in a bustle. Loose reins are given to public dissipation; everywhere you may hear the sound of great preparations, as if there were some real difference between the days devoted to Saturn and those for transacting business...
    Plus ça change, I suppose.
    PDN wrote:
    Do atheists refuse to go to any Christian services at all?
    Nope. I was at the carol service in Christchurch last sunday afternoon -- great stuff, though the recessional wasn't really up to scratch. And my 14-month daughter showed a bit of early form by going "blah blah blah" quite loudly from the front row during one or other of the lessons. That's me kid!


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    #22
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    robindch wrote: »
    That's me kid!
    :D


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    #23
    Keith186
    Registered Users Posts: 3,193 ✭✭✭Keith186


    Personally I wouldn't get married in a church. I'd respect my own beliefs before others even if it was my g/f.

    Tricky situation you find yourself in.


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