Hitting up on driver

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 9:58am #1

Hey,

Feel players look away now

........

I was looking at something yesterday and it struck me that I may have been misunderstanding something when it comes to the driver.

So I have been working for a while on hitting up on the driver to aid distance i.e. positive AOA. But what I read was that the driver would still have forward shaft lean at impact. So it took me a minute to register this but I think I have been assuming, unknown to myself, that you would not have forward shaft lean at impact when hitting up on the driver.

Any thoughts on this ?

thanks

GreeBo · 29-08-2014 11:04am

I dont even see how forward shaft lean is possible with a driver at impact if you are hitting up on the ball...at least not with my body!

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 11:12am

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont even see how forward shaft lean is possible with a driver at impact if you are hitting up on the ball...at least not with my body!

That's what my initial thought was. But I guess if you can have backward shaft lean with an iron hitting down (which would be scooping) ??

Russman · 29-08-2014 11:46am

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont even see how forward shaft lean is possible with a driver at impact if you are hitting up on the ball...at least not with my body!

Possibly if you played it like a block cricket shot, kept the hands ahead, and get very "chicken winged" (ie lead with the elbow) ?..............maybe, or something.........:eek:

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 11:49am

Would love to see some actual numbers on this

GreeBo · 29-08-2014 1:10pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

That's what my initial thought was. But I guess if you can have backward shaft lean with an iron hitting down (which would be scooping) ??

But when you scoup you dont have the backwards forwards lean...i.e thats part of the problem?

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 1:29pm

GreeBo wrote: »

But when you scoup you dont have the backwards lean...i.e thats part of the problem?

eh.....I understood scooping to mean trying to help the ball into the air which would suggest shaft leaning backwards at impact no ?

See first image on this page

http://www.good-at-golf.com/breaking-100-get-on-the-green-from-50-yards-in-on-your-first-try/

GreeBo · 29-08-2014 1:49pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

eh.....I understood scooping to mean trying to help the ball into the air which would suggest shaft leaning backwards at impact no ?

See first image on this page

http://www.good-at-golf.com/breaking-100-get-on-the-green-from-50-yards-in-on-your-first-try/

Exactly, which means you are not hitting down.
I dont think you can hit down and scoup.
Likewise, I dont think you can hit up and forward lean...?

/edit
sorry I meant forward lean in the first post!

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 1:50pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly, which means you are not hitting down.
I dont think you can hit down and scoup.
Likewise, I dont think you can hit up and forward lean...?

/edit
sorry I meant forward lean in the first post!

Well surely you have to be hitting down some bit given the ball is on the ground ?

GreeBo · 29-08-2014 1:52pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

Well surely you have to be hitting down some bit given the ball is on the ground ?

You are hitting the ball with a club thats moving up, the ball being on the ground doenst come into it?
Hence you chunk or skull it.

Norfolk Enchants_ · 29-08-2014 2:02pm

Lads it's not rocket science, it's your spine angle that gives you the positve AOA and you can/should have some shaft lean.
Alxmorgan, what HC are you?, you seem to be odsessesd with trackman and everything related, without been too brutal, if you spent just a quarter of that time on your short game, you'd see a more dramatic improvement.

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 2:03pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You are hitting the ball with a club thats moving up, the ball being on the ground doenst come into it?
Hence you chunk or skull it.

You are correct assuming you do chunk or skull it but is that always the case ?
I mean you hear a lot that players add loft as impact with backward shaft lean and still hit ok shots i.e. do not skull or chunk

Anyway I don't see any reason when I think about it why you cannot hit up with forward shaft lean. It seems counter-intuitive but the more I think about it the more I think they are not necessarily related. The head is delofted but is moving upwards when hitting the ball.

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 2:05pm

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Lads it's not rocket science, it's your spine angle that gives you the positve AOA and you can/should have some shaft lean.
Alxmorgan, what HC are you?, you seem to be odsessesd with trackman and everything related, without been too brutal, if you spent just a quarter of that time on your short game, you'd see a more dramatic improvement.

Interested rather than obsessed. I like to understand how things work. That's just how my mind works. Off 12 btw - however much it matters.

GreeBo · 29-08-2014 2:17pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

You are correct assuming you do chunk or skull it but is that always the case ?
I mean you hear a lot that players add loft as impact with backward shaft lean and still hit ok shots i.e. do not skull or chunk

Anyway I don't see any reason when I think about it why you cannot hit up with forward shaft lean. It seems counter-intuitive but the more I think about it the more I think they are not necessarily related. The head is delofted but is moving upwards when hitting the ball.

I dunno, I just cant picture it...
my body leaning away, hands ahead of the club but everything moving forward?
I think Id fall over.

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 2:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I dunno, I just cant picture it...
my body leaning away, hands ahead of the club but everything moving forward?
I think Id fall over.

I found it.....it says:

An interesting finding is that the ball will go farther if it is struck with an ascending angle of attack and a forward leaning shaft, thus resulting in a more stable and penetrating ball flight.

From here:

http://blog.swingbyte.com/

cairny · 29-08-2014 2:22pm

My (very basic / dullard) understanding of hitting up on driver is just that the club is past the bottom of its lowest point on the arc, ie just beginning to rise, you can still have your hands a bit forward / ahead of the club at the point of contact and so the shaft can be leaning forward as you hit on the upswing.

My favourite YouTube golf video touches on this albeit it's not the guys main point.

http://youtu.be/Lto1k9ufG9s

John Divney · 29-08-2014 2:26pm

The swing is the same, most amateurs can't achieve shaft lean with irons anyway, so the have decent driver results and crap iron strikes.

The pros have the same swing for driver, their hands reach the ball but the shaft is at a neutral or slight lean but on an ascending strike due to ball position and spine tilt.

Basically the work is done at address, shaft lean is not on their mind as they will swing the same.

GreeBo · 29-08-2014 2:59pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

I found it.....it says:

From here:

http://blog.swingbyte.com/

I still cant see it, in the picture they have I dont think that position is physically possible at impact.

I have seen lots of links regarding a neutral shaft at impact for driver.

Some of the guys here have the slightest of forward lean, but even that is hard to confirm due to image distortion.
DJ seems to be the most obvious, but I think that face on image is before impact, really distorting the truth.

Senecio · 29-08-2014 3:09pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I dunno, I just cant picture it...
my body leaning away, hands ahead of the club but everything moving forward?
I think Id fall over.

It can be done, but it takes some skill (and a body that I don't have!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFjDfyt1C5U

I understand that this is an iron and not really hitting up on it but similar principles. Staying behind it with forward shaft lean.

TrapperChamonix · 29-08-2014 4:18pm

cairny wrote: »

My (very basic / dullard) understanding of hitting up on driver is just that the club is past the bottom of its lowest point on the arc, ie just beginning to rise, you can still have your hands a bit forward / ahead of the club at the point of contact and so the shaft can be leaning forward as you hit on the upswing.

My favourite YouTube golf video touches on this albeit it's not the guys main point.

http://youtu.be/Lto1k9ufG9s

Ha Ha Ha................ that's brilliant.

GreeBo · 29-08-2014 4:29pm

cairny wrote: »

My (very basic / dullard) understanding of hitting up on driver is just that the club is past the bottom of its lowest point on the arc, ie just beginning to rise, you can still have your hands a bit forward / ahead of the club at the point of contact and so the shaft can be leaning forward as you hit on the upswing.

My favourite YouTube golf video touches on this albeit it's not the guys main point.

http://youtu.be/Lto1k9ufG9s

Its kinda baloney though.
"speed is useless if you cant compress the ball"
Thats junk.
The ball compresses because its elastic and being hit by a moving object.
Hands ahead of the ball doesnt compress it more, the speed compresses it, its not getting compressed into the ground and a 3 degree face doesnt compress it more than a 10 degree face.

ShivasIrons · 29-08-2014 9:00pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its kinda baloney though.
"speed is useless if you cant compress the ball"
Thats junk.
The ball compresses because its elastic and being hit by a moving object.
Hands ahead of the ball doesnt compress it more, the speed compresses it, its not getting compressed into the ground and a 3 degree face doesnt compress it more than a 10 degree face.

When golfers and or teachers talk about compression what they are talking about is spin loft i.e. the difference between the angle of attack and the dynamic loft at impact. The terminology is just confusing and hence the confusion around the subject, which leads to statements like 'speed is useless if you can't compress the ball'.

Basically a golfer who 'compresses' the ball is one with a low spin loft, particularly with irons, which gives a more penetrating flight.
A more useful statement would be 'speed is less useful if your spin loft is high'. But who would say such a statement!

Back to the OP, it's definitely possible to hit up on the driver and have forward lean on the shaft, spine tilt at address and impact married with a wrist in flexion (or bowed) at impact would go a long way to achieving the desired (or undesired) result.

alxmorgan · 29-08-2014 9:23pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

When golfers and or teachers talk about compression what they are talking about is spin loft i.e. the difference between the angle of attack and the dynamic loft at impact. The terminology is just confusing and hence the confusion around the subject, which leads to statements like 'speed is useless if you can't compress the ball'.

Basically a golfer who 'compresses' the ball is one with a low spin loft, particularly with irons, which gives a more penetrating flight.
A more useful statement would be 'speed is less useful if your spin loft is high'. But who would say such a statement!

Back to the OP, it's definitely possible to hit up on the driver and have forward lean on the shaft, spine tilt at address and impact married with a wrist in flexion (or bowed) at impact would go a long way to achieving the desired (or undesired) result.

In your opinion what would the up and down sides of forward shaft lean at impact with the driver while hitting up ?

ShivasIrons · 29-08-2014 10:00pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

In your opinion what would the up and down sides of forward shaft lean at impact with the driver while hitting up ?

The first thing you'd look for is what your current launch and impact conditions are, then the next question is how functional/optimal are these conditions. Optimal is what we'd all like but if they are functional then there mightn't be a great need to change.

An example of this would a golfer with a high swing speed (>110mph) who hits down on the driver by 3 or 4 degrees, this is not optimal but could be very functional, i.e. the golfer will hit the ball far enough to be competitive at all levels) the changes required to be optimal (3-5 degrees up) would be quite substantial and maybe not necessary.

To answer your question, the upside of hitting up on the ball with a forward shaft lean is this would lead to optimal launch conditions, i.e. an upward angle of attack coupled with a low spin loft. The downside might be the swing changes required to achieve it.

cairny · 30-08-2014 8:46am

GreeBo wrote: »

Its kinda baloney though.
"speed is useless if you cant compress the ball"
Thats junk.
The ball compresses because its elastic and being hit by a moving object.
Hands ahead of the ball doesnt compress it more, the speed compresses it, its not getting compressed into the ground and a 3 degree face doesnt compress it more than a 10 degree face.

Tis..,. He was just setting up the gag using internet myths / latest crazes (loft up etc). Sorry didn't think it'd be taken seriously.

John Divney · 30-08-2014 10:35am

You can see in the pic posted by Greebo that Dustin Johnson has some, but he hits low drives, Bubba however has the ball way past where DJ does, so he hits the ball on the upswing very late, and he hits it into the stratosphere.

Johnson could get way more carry, but his ball rolls a country mile with that trajectory so at his swing speed he doesn't have to hit up

alxmorgan · 31-08-2014 7:54pm

Tried this today. Felt like I had forward shaft lean at impact but of course can't be sure. Definitely had it at address.

Hit 8 drives. 5 were as good as I have ever hit. 1 pull, one push and only one really bad shot - big slice. So promising results so far. Felt like I was hitting it very solid which hasn't been the case lately.

Will stick with it for a while.

whizbang · 31-08-2014 11:59pm

How the hell did this one get so viral??? I believe this to be one of the worst ever tips for amateurs.

For most golfers, the bottom of their swing will coincide with the furthest arc of the swing, so if you are catching the ball after the bottom of the swing, then its also where the club is coming back in, causing a slice.

The other one is weight shift. If you try to promote weight shift during your backswing, its all going to go horribly wrong.

A good swing will have these attributes by default, not by forcing it.

A New earth · 01-09-2014 1:32am

Don't know much about technical stuff, forward lean etc but have always been fighting a slice until this year when I started hittting the ball very much on the upswing, weight favouring right side at address, ball teed high etc. This has given me the bit of extra distance I was looking for but the surprising thing to me is that there are NO slices anymore. I don't know why except the swing seems simpler and easier, (Handicap 9)

ShivasIrons · 01-09-2014 9:49am

whizbang wrote: »

How the hell did this one get so viral??? I believe this to be one of the worst ever tips for amateurs.

For most golfers, the bottom of their swing will coincide with the furthest arc of the swing, so if you are catching the ball after the bottom of the swing, then its also where the club is coming back in, causing a slice.

The other one is weight shift. If you try to promote weight shift during your backswing, its all going to go horribly wrong.

A good swing will have these attributes by default, not by forcing it.

The reason that this tip is gone viral is because hitting up on the driver will give you more distance for example a golfer with 90 mph clubhead speed with a 5 degree down swing will carry it potentially 191 yards and have a total distance of 226, with a level swing the potential carry is 203 yards with a total of 240 and with a five degree upward swing the potential carry is 214 with a total of 250. Potentially 24 more yards with out increasing clubhead speed.

Changing the angle of attack can be done by even just teeing the ball higher, to say that hitting up on the ball is one of the worst tips ever for an amateur is simply untrue. I would say that the tip 'tee the ball higher and see what happens' is one of the best tips for any golfer. There's a good chance the ball will go further and if not no damage caused.

You do mention that hitting up on the ball causes the swing to go in, this is true but not the full story. An upward attack angle does have an influence on the club path, it does shift it further left but club path is also influenced by the swing direction, so a rightward swing direction coupled with an upward attack angle can still be an in to out swing, for the right handed player.

Also a club coming back in, doesn't only cause a slice, it can also lead to fades, push slices, straight shots and pull hooks. What causes the ball to curve is the difference between the face angle and the path of the club coupled with where the ball is struck on the face.

John Divney · 01-09-2014 10:34am

whizbang wrote: »

How the hell did this one get so viral??? I believe this to be one of the worst ever tips for amateurs.

For most golfers, the bottom of their swing will coincide with the furthest arc of the swing, so if you are catching the ball after the bottom of the swing, then its also where the club is coming back in, causing a slice.

The other one is weight shift. If you try to promote weight shift during your backswing, its all going to go horribly wrong.

A good swing will have these attributes by default, not by forcing it.

You don't change the swing, you change the setup.

ALL drives promote a slice, due to the ball position.

All swings have a weight shift, but you change the angle of attack by Starting with weight on one side, you don't try and stop shifting dynamically when you swing.

A wedge, weight on front foot at adress, a a Driver weight on back foot.

To stop a slice, you aim your feet closed, to zero out the swing path, or exaggerate for a draw.

None if that has anything to do with shaft lean, it's basic setup for golfers.

If you don't believe this, you shouldn't play a wedge with your weight on front foot either by the same logic

GreeBo · 01-09-2014 10:37am

John Divney wrote: »

You don't change the swing, you change the setup.

ALL drives promote a slice, due to the ball position.

All swings have a weight shift, but you change the angle of attack by Starting with weight on one side, you don't try and stop shifting dynamically when you swing.

A wedge, weight on front foot at adress, a a Driver weight on back foot.

To stop a slice, you aim your feet closed, to zero out the swing path, or exaggerate for a draw.

None if that has anything to do with shaft lean, it's basic setup for golfers.

If you don't believe this, you shouldn't play a wedge with your weight on front foot either by the same logic

I dont have a weight shift.
Also, why does driver ball position promote a slice, surely the face is more closed the further you get from the bottom of the swing arc?
Also, the naturally more around than up and down swing will promote a draw.

John Divney · 01-09-2014 10:53am

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont have a weight shift.
Also, why does driver ball position promote a slice, surely the face is more closed the further you get from the bottom of the swing arc?
Also, the naturally more around than up and down swing will promote a draw.

The turning if the body is all you need to transfer weight in the back swing. You can't stop it it.

The downswing is a shift onto the front foot, every golfer who hits the ball well does it. Do you mean you try and keep your weight on the front foot to promote good strikes?

The Driver is a slice because the ball being that forward means the path is out to in. A closing face just means the slice starts to varying degrees left or straight, then ends up in the next fairway on the right.

GreeBo · 01-09-2014 2:01pm

John Divney wrote: »

The turning if the body is all you need to transfer weight in the back swing. You can't stop it it.

The downswing is a shift onto the front foot, every golfer who hits the ball well does it. Do you mean you try and keep your weight on the front foot to promote good strikes?

The Driver is a slice because the ball being that forward means the path is out to in. A closing face just means the slice starts to varying degrees left or straight, then ends up in the next fairway on the right.

If I turn around my left/front foot then there is no shift, I can rotate while standing on one leg and I don't fall over, so no weight shift.

I disagree that the path is out to in just because of ball position. Perhaps you just have the ball too far away (not forward)?

John Divney · 01-09-2014 2:23pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If I turn around my left/front foot then there is no shift, I can rotate while standing on one leg and I don't fall over, so no weight shift.

I disagree that the path is out to in just because of ball position. Perhaps you just have the ball too far away (not forward)?

That's a feeling, you are keeping pressure on your lead foot, however you are turning over your right heel, shoulders and head all over that side if you have a full shoulder turn, even with a wedge, there has been a shift of weight into the right inner foot.

That's the Shawn Clement tilted spiral setup you are using?

Even he says the reason to do it is to not focus on weight shift to the right because happens naturally just by completing a shoulder turn.

I don 't shift my weight either, I turn over my right heel, weight moves naturally.

The driver is a slice club for anyone who sets up neutral and with the ball forward off the front foot, almost all players will catch it out to in, to varying degrees, if the are aiming straight.

Some close the club even more to start it further left, others try and swing left even more which makes the slice way worse.

That's why players can hit draw with irons but the Driver leaves them with right to left spin.

You just have to set up to get a neutral path or in to out, that means feet aim right, you have to set up right to hit straight with a driver.

Obviously some players drop the club massively and swing from the inside and ball position won't be a problem, but most amateurs are OTT to begin with, so the Driver is a slice machine.

alxmorgan · 01-09-2014 2:23pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If I turn around my left/front foot then there is no shift, I can rotate while standing on one leg and I don't fall over, so no weight shift.

I disagree that the path is out to in just because of ball position. Perhaps you just have the ball too far away (not forward)?

You will have weight shift...it will just be to the outside of your standing foot. Your lower body will move left to counter balance the weight of your arms/club going right.

Hitting up on driver

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