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Beware of energy companies "home services team"

  • 10-10-2011 9:28pm
    #1
    spireland32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭


    Just a notice to anyone who is considering using you gas providers "home service team" for service, repair or replacement. Ok you can put it on your bill but in the long run it's more expensive than your locally RGI. A boiler change can be up €800 more than a local RGI.

    A neighbour of a friend had one of these home team in the repair a gas boiler. It's a glow worm KFB hasn't been used all summer... Straight away Id and most RGI's would know what to check first on a KFB anyway this guy from the home team changed the gas valve. Charged 350€ and left. Broke down again the next day... Called him back and he fitted another part charged another few hundred. Left again broke down again.

    I then got a call from this lady after she got fed up with the home team. I fixed the problem €80. That was that all working fine for 2 wks now. She wanted a new boiler before the winter as it's 16 yrs old. Gave her a price and got the go-ahead. I have heard of 5-6 similar stories with home energy teams in recent months so consumers beware. I'm sure other RGI have seen and heard of this carry on.

    *(RGI- Registered Gas Installer)*
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't agree they make me look good and cheap:D.


    And Just to add €430 plus fitting for a expansion vessel on a heatline S24 or €800 to replace the PCBs on a Chaffataux Britony system 2 :pac::pac::pac:


  • #3
    heinbloed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    This friend of a neighbour - or the other way around- would get a certificate for every occasion an RGI registered fitter/installer works on the heating system.
    This certificate holds an individual number at the top of the form's right corner.Each form has it's own number, like a bank note for exampel.

    Would your neighbour or friend tell you (so you can tell us) the individual numbers of the issued certificates please?
    Anonymous but traceable for the NSAI.

    Any problem with this?

    Oh yes, the "other 5-6 similar stories" as well please......

    Consumers be aware that there is now some control. Some don't like this. Well, let's see what they are able to show.....


  • #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    Consumers be aware that there is now some control. Some don't like this. Well, let's see what they are able to show.....

    What control do you think there is?


  • #5
    heinbloed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Gary71 asks:
    What control do you think there is?

    The consumers. Let's see what the OP can come up with.


  • #6
    spireland32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭spireland32


    The prices are crazy that they charge gary... Double and treble what we'd be charging at times. Good point tho "good and cheap" !! Heinbold or whatever your name is... Nothing to do with NSAI the RGII would hold that information if and when cert was returned. Your not a plumber or heating engineer yet you comment regularly here as a know it all. I'm not getting involved in it... It's the customers issue, I've enough to worry about than chasing down some guy who doesn't know what he's doing. The more of them the better for the likes of me and gary.


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  • #7
    heinbloed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Nothing to show, just barking up the tree?


  • #8
    spireland32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭spireland32


    What are you on about? What do want to see?


  • #9
    DoneDL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 902 ✭✭✭DoneDL


    spireland32 wrote: »
    Just a notice to anyone who is considering using you gas providers "home service team" for service, repair or replacement. Ok you can put it on your bill but in the long run it's more expensive than your locally RGI. A boiler change can be up €800 more than a local RGI.

    A neighbour of a friend had one of these home team in the repair a gas boiler. It's a glow worm KFB hasn't been used all summer... Straight away Id and most RGI's would know what to check first on a KFB anyway this guy from the home team changed the gas valve. Charged 350€ and left. Broke down again the next day... Called him back and he fitted another part charged another few hundred. Left again broke down again.

    I then got a call from this lady after she got fed up with the home team. I fixed the problem €80. That was that all working fine for 2 wks now. She wanted a new boiler before the winter as it's 16 yrs old. Gave her a price and got the go-ahead. I have heard of 5-6 similar stories with home energy teams in recent months so consumers beware. I'm sure other RGI have seen and heard of this carry on.

    *(RGI- Registered Gas Installer)*


    In Feb 2011 the APHCI-Association Of Plumbing And Heating Contractors Of Ireland was set-up, to give us a voice. We have linked up with a long established group in cork and have members all over the country now- North South East West.

    We set up the APHCI because of many issues but mainly due to the SEAI grants- Penalty points, 10sq earth, etc and Bord Gais dominance in the market- Using the customers base we gave them down thru the years as theyre own for boiler upgrades etc, Offering 0% finance which is putting the small contractor out of business.

    We got on to government and seai about our concerns but they didnt want to know. We recently got advise and found out EU law was being infringed...Now government is all ears. We met with the top man in seai also and he now wants to listen to us.

    This is a brief overview of whats happening..... We have a very very important meeting in the RED COW HOTEL ON 8TH SEP 2011 we need you, the RGI contractors there for a vote on all this, but you need to be registered with the aphci. If you are registered with aphci please arrive at 6.50-7pm. If you are not arrive at 6pm.

    Please attend if at all possible. Tell fellow RGI about this and the APHCI. We have made huge gains in a few short months. We need you there to secure a desent future for our industry. Thanks for reading. PM me or email spireland32@gmail.com with any queries.

    I for one see a conflict of interest.


  • #10
    spireland32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭spireland32


    It's the same conflict... Big energy companies who make huge profits as it is against small contractors trying to make a living. What's the problem donedl


  • #11
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    I got a call today, a man in my area got them in as he got a voucher when he switched supplier for a boiler service. They came and half way trough he said he must terminate the service as there is a gas leak on the main probably at the fire, he must now hire an RGI to locate and fix leak before the sevice can finish. I asked the man why didn't the person servicing the boiler fix the leak? He said " I asked him that and he said that he doesn't do that kind of work :confused:" He then told me that he has shut the gas down. I asked him did he say how much the test had dropped to which the man replied 2mbar:eek:. The engineer should go back to is813 and look up the section on soundness testing where is states "a pressure drop of 2.5mbar is acceptable on an existing installation".

    Unfortunately I could not help the man due to work load and gave him some real gas fitter's numbers.

    That's my tupins.


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  • #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Not if he smelt it:P


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    DoneDL wrote: »
    I for one see a conflict of interest.
    I feel violated:eek:


  • #14
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    I think the APHCI will become a good thing if we all support it.


  • #15
    DoneDL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 902 ✭✭✭DoneDL


    gary71 wrote: »
    Not if he smelt it:P

    +1. This idea that large suppliers with fitters are under contract to them does not mean that you will get a bad service. We don`t know for sure that the information we get second or third hand is reliable but I dislike an obvious conflict of interest. Independent installers are more reliable because if they are not they will not survive.


  • #16
    spireland32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭spireland32


    Where's the conflict of interest? I'm a member of the APHCI as is johnniek. I do agree with the second and third hand info can get muddled and bits added on. Obviously not all fitters with home teams are bad.


  • #17
    knighted_1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056420485

    http://dublin.ratemyarea.com/deals/recent


    a new low ? €36 euro for a gas boiler service and can't blame new '18 day wonders' these lads seem to be round a while

    would anyone on here seriously do a boiler service for €36 ?


  • #18
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056420485

    http://dublin.ratemyarea.com/deals/recent


    a new low ? €36 euro for a gas boiler service and can't blame new '18 day wonders' these lads seem to be round a while

    would anyone on here seriously do a boiler service for €36 ?

    On this site i doubt it but a lot of home owners will be happy to take up the offer who know they will be living within there insurence policy requirements.


    afic its just a prom offer for advertising anyway... Personally i would not use board gas eirtricity or the esb for a boiler service. I generally use the same plumber. I know what he is required to do, he does it and checks the pipe work elsewhere as well.


  • #19
    knighted_1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    sorry joey , advise and opinion are two different things . advice can be backed up by fact and referenced to a source . what you tend to give is your opinion . I want advice and answers not your opinion ,thanks anyway .

    bord gais is not mentioned in my links , theses guys are plumbers sinking to a new low on price , way undercutting the 18 day trainees .

    my question again would anyone who is registered and qualified do a service for €36 ? please only answer if your doing this line of work


  • #20
    gdavis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭gdavis


    why didnt that chap do a soundness test before he started the service like he should have???


  • #21
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    Re Annex E and existing installation soundness, and the allowable drop of 2.5mbar over a 2 minute test

    2.5 mbar was introduced as a figure of a maximum drop (leak) of gas allowed on an existing installation, BUT, if an rgi finds this and cannot repair, he MAY decide to leave the gas on PENDING RECTIFICATION if HE DEEMS IT SAFE, remember it's his name on the cert, I would not hang any installer out to dry over isolating an installation on the basis that he did not feel it was safe.

    I thought as professionals working with gas we would always err on the sde of caution, a leak of gas is not going to get better is it.


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  • #22
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    would anyone on here seriously do a boiler service for €36 ?

    Very short answer. NO!!


  • #23
    Tails142
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Tails142


    Had the 'home energy team' out to the last place I was renting, the landlord arranged it after we moved in.

    The first appointment and the guy never turned up, no explanation. I was sitting at home all day from 11am waiting for him to appear. Rescheduled for another day and he turns up, hoovers out the boiler and then just leaves. Never bothered to check if the rads needed bleeding or if they were even heating at all, maybe you folks in the know here can advise if you think this is standard practice?


  • #24
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    DGOBS wrote: »
    Re Annex E and existing installation soundness, and the allowable drop of 2.5mbar over a 2 minute test

    2.5 mbar was introduced as a figure of a maximum drop (leak) of gas allowed on an existing installation, BUT, if an rgi finds this and cannot repair, he MAY decide to leave the gas on PENDING RECTIFICATION if HE DEEMS IT SAFE, remember it's his name on the cert, I would not hang any installer out to dry over isolating an installation on the basis that he did not feel it was safe.

    I thought as professionals working with gas we would always err on the sde of caution, a leak of gas is not going to get better is it.

    Quite true, but the thing that gets me is they don't even isolate the appliances to see if it's on the carcase pipework or not. If it was on the carcase then I would understand a shut down. To test at the meter and isolate with such a small drop without shutting the appliances off first is just lazy. I was always thought to test, shut off appliances, test again, turn on one by one to determin where the leak is and which appliance it is on. The other thing about the post I put up was that he said the BG serviced it every other year and nothing like this happened. I told him that BG only test the boiler (isolate and test from appliance valve to appliance gas valve). He asked why and to be honest I didn't know what to say to him.


  • #25
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    Tails142 wrote: »
    Had the 'home energy team' out to the last place I was renting, the landlord arranged it after we moved in.

    The first appointment and the guy never turned up, no explanation. I was sitting at home all day from 11am waiting for him to appear. Rescheduled for another day and he turns up, hoovers out the boiler and then just leaves. Never bothered to check if the rads needed bleeding or if they were even heating at all, maybe you folks in the know here can advise if you think this is standard practice?

    Unfortunately when they regulated the gas industry they never bothered to regulate whats done on a service. Annex C is what's performed on a service and part of Annex C states that it should be done in accordance with manufacturers instructions. There is a section of the manual that comes with every boiler called servicing and this should be done annually and it more than just a hoover.


  • #26
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    sorry joey , advise and opinion are two different things . advice can be backed up by fact and referenced to a source . what you tend to give is your opinion . I want advice and answers not your opinion ,thanks anyway .

    bord gais is not mentioned in my links , theses guys are plumbers sinking to a new low on price , way undercutting the 18 day trainees .

    my question again would anyone who is registered and qualified do a service for €36 ? please only answer if your doing this line of work

    Thats true advice and opinion are 2 different things and my opinion would be that no one is expected to do a service or will do a service for 36 euro but my advice would be if there is the possibility of a lot of publicity to be gained and a cert of conformance then yes i would do the service for 36 euro if i was qualified. The fact that we are discussing it is prooof that it works....Thanks for pointing that out .


  • #27
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    I don't allow any drop. If it drops, it must be found or re route is strongly advised.

    SEAI, The destination they are taking the industry is productive and should be welcomed, how they are getting there is questionable.


  • #28
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Spraying the test nipple is classed as a soundness test, this is a agreement between Rgi and Bg:eek:


  • #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    While I'm at it, why is Bg allowed to test a flue cold and then hot to prove the worth of a service, it's a bloody lie and designed to fool their customers:mad:


  • #30
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    gary71 wrote: »
    Spraying the test nipple is classed as a soundness test, this is a agreement between Rgi and Bg:eek:


    To be fair, it makes sense. If you are only testing the nipple. I like to through my gauge over the closed nipple just to be sure.

    Paranoia, every good gas person should have a healthy dose of it :P


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  • #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    To meet the soundness test requirements of annex c a gauge isn't required spraying the nipple is enough, if the gauge is on to check working pressure why encourage engineers not to use a device designed just for that purpose?


  • #32
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    gary71 wrote: »
    To meet the soundness test requirements of annex c a gauge isn't required spraying the nipple is enough, if the gauge is on to check working pressure why encourage engineers not to use a device designed just for that purpose?

    True, but fluid should pick up any leaks on a local area so small.


  • #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Who's idea was it to require a soundness test of the appliance only? We're either in the game of gas safety or we're not, I do hope who ever allowed such a stupid and idiotic reg to be passed doesn't end up in charge of the whole of Ireland's gas engineers, frightening idea:eek:


  • #34
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    To be honest, that is mental. I have never done an appliance only check unless I was in the process of elimination on a gas escape on a system.

    Always do a let by then soundness test from meter. Don't know why that isn't the done thing.


  • #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    True, but fluid should pick up any leaks on a local area so small.

    A soundness test is a mechanical process with a proven outcome, spraying leak detection liquid is not.


  • #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    . Don't know why that isn't the done thing.

    It was done to meet the requirements of a large organisation who are only interested in boiler servicing and not the safety of the gas line or other appliances.


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  • #37
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Interesting point and accurate. Spraying fluid is a physical process, so too are bubbles.


  • #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Interesting point and accurate. Spraying fluid is a physical process, so too are bubbles.

    I'v been in after fellas who wouldn't spot bubbles if you put a match to it and a fruitloop who left a leak because the fluid never changed colour:pac::pac:
    I say keep it simple, even a fruitloop can spot a drop:D.


  • #39
    knighted_1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Thats true advice and opinion are 2 different things and my opinion would be that no one is expected to do a service or will do a service for 36 euro but my advice would be if there is the possibility of a lot of publicity to be gained and a cert of conformance then yes i would do the service for 36 euro if i was qualified. The fact that we are discussing it is prooof that it works....Thanks for pointing that out .

    read my post again - advice can be referenced to source - as you gave advice can you please reference it ? !! -

    the key words in your response are 'if I was qualified' - you are not , and this is where I have issue with your entry in to discussions and things you know nothing about -


  • #40
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    read my post again - advice can be referenced to source - as you gave advice can you please reference it ? !! -

    the key words in your response are 'if I was qualified' - you are not , and this is where I have issue with your entry in to discussions and things you know nothing about -


    You don't need to be qualified to offer advice here.

    Just to be clear, the passive aggression stops now . It's not welcome nor needed here.


  • #41
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    How would spraying a test nipple prove appliance soundness??????????

    What if the valve was passing, or the was a leak downstream of the appliance governor?

    Soundness testing of an appliance can only be take as soundness testing, and the only test procedure for soundness is in annex e of IS813 (poor as it is)


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  • #42
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    I'm still of the opinion that RGII needs to be purged of all the ex board gais staff who conveniently left board gais on the Friday and where working for RGII on the Monday. There is to many vested interests going on in the organization. There are plenty of very good independent gas fitters and ex British gas engineers out there that could do the job a lot better with an independent mind set. As with all regulators in this country the CER are obviusly not looking at what's going on.


  • #43
    knighted_1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    Banned.


  • #44
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    +1 jk ....rgii different boat same crew

    I know of a few really good technical gas guys who applied for inspector positions, one was told not to bother jobs are gone, the others never even got a PFO

    These were/are public jobs that never seen the light of day, that's not just wrong, it's a crime!

    Now let's all get out out test bellows and introduce air into the pipework for soundness, as we are not given the credibility to be competent to learn and understand the difference in low and medium pressure regulators and how to test them correctly for letby or use them correctly when soundness testing.

    BTW where is that procedure for soundness testing? In what standard, code of practice or gas regulation document is it to be found? Yet we are VERBALLY told to do it

    We pay our yearly registration, and for every cert we issue, yet our registration body cannot in nearly 3 years issue a code of practice for its members, hold an AGM, or any installers general meetings, listen to its members in any way, ever offer way of telling service technicians and plumber/installers apart.

    Last years public accounts shows around €1m in revenue generated by rgii, where is it all going?

    What are we paying for?


  • #45
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    DGOBS wrote: »
    How would spraying a test nipple prove appliance soundness??????????

    What if the valve was passing, or the was a leak downstream of the appliance governor?

    Soundness testing of an appliance can only be take as soundness testing, and the only test procedure for soundness is in annex e of IS813 (poor as it is)


    We were talking about after the appliance check and only checking the nipple for soundness.


  • #46
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    After what appliance check? (s)

    No mention of soundness testing here, Gary71 was talking about BGE NOT doing a proper soundness test, only testing the nipple with LDF! (as is the practice)

    Even if soundness was done, it would not confirm soundness of the appliance at all, only the governor, all joints from appliance governor to combustion chamber or burner (where applicable) should be tested with LDF or a sniffer with the appliance on, have found many a leak there after a successful soundness test

    +1 for installation soundness on every visit to every installation, how could you not!

    Worst case, find a leak a repair it....sounds like proper safety and more business too!
    where's the downside, unless your a company with only an appliance interest, then it's a pain, but why not have a subcontractor in the wings to pick up that slack if not interested in the work itself (many are)


  • #47
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    DGOBS wrote: »
    After what appliance check? (s)

    No mention of soundness testing here, Gary71 was talking about BGE NOT doing a proper soundness test, only testing the nipple with LDF! (as is the practice)


    I don't get it. how does spraying a nipple class as a soundness test on an appliance?.

    I have never heard of this as practice. then again as I said I would only test an actual appliance if I found a drop on a line. I would test the complete system from meter with all appliance shut off's in the on position.


  • #48
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    I agree, and was in astounded when I heard it, they now charge EXTRA when servicing BBUs because they do a soundness test!
    but it's what IS going on!!!!

    What about testing the appliance downstream of the appliance regulator as part of a service, it's a must in my book, an takes about a minute!


  • #49
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    It seems to me "Duty of Care" means different things to different people.

    Madness so it is.


  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Just to clarify, to save time in a 45 minute service it has been agreed with Rgi and the powers of darkness that a boiler isolated at it's appliance gas isolation valve and then sprayed at the test nipple on the boilers gas valve (after removing guage for testing standing/working pressure) will then meet the requirements of a Annex C appliance soundness test:)


  • #51
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    gary71 wrote: »
    Just to clarify, to save time in a 45 minute service it has been agreed with Rgi and the powers of darkness that a boiler isolated at it's appliance gas isolation valve and then sprayed at the test nipple on the boilers gas valve (after removing guage for testing standing/working pressure) will then meet the requirements of a Annex C appliance soundness test:)


    Jaysus, and there I was wasting my time like a bloody fool :P


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