Beware of energy companies "home services team"

DGOBS · 15-10-2011 8:19pm

Lol@ powers of darkness

GASMANN · 16-10-2011 8:15pm

gdavis wrote: »

why didnt that chap do a soundness test before he started the service like he should have???

appliance service requires an annex c only.

DGOBS · 16-10-2011 8:19pm

Annex C is comparing whats required with whats considered industry best practice

How would you suggest appliance soundness testing is performed?

What we are saying, is using a manometer and the correct testing times/procedures, not LDF

GASMANN · 16-10-2011 8:21pm

Tails142 wrote: »

Had the 'home energy team' out to the last place I was renting, the landlord arranged it after we moved in.

The first appointment and the guy never turned up, no explanation. I was sitting at home all day from 11am waiting for him to appear. Rescheduled for another day and he turns up, hoovers out the boiler and then just leaves. Never bothered to check if the rads needed bleeding or if they were even heating at all, maybe you folks in the know here can advise if you think this is standard practice?

im not sticking up for any h.s contractors and am not one myself, but a boiler service is a boiler service not a rad service or anything else.
if a cust of mine asked me to check rads , h.w cylinders, dripping tap on a service call thats never going to be a problem, but if you book a boiler service what more do you want, wash the car maybe...

there is however more to it than hoovering

DGOBS · 16-10-2011 8:26pm

Agreed (but I do normally check rads etc on a 'boiler service' and any controls, but that's my choice to provide this as part of a service)

But what this thread has ended up being a conversation about is appliance vs installation soundness testing when carrying out a boiler service

GASMANN · 16-10-2011 8:36pm

DGOBS wrote: »

How would spraying a test nipple prove appliance soundness??????????

What if the valve was passing, or the was a leak downstream of the appliance governor?

Soundness testing of an appliance can only be take as soundness testing, and the only test procedure for soundness is in annex e of IS813 (poor as it is)

on that dgobs you could take out a test nipple from the burner side of an appliance's gas valve and throw it in the bin and an annex e soundness test will hold.

16-10-2011 8:41pm

DGOBS wrote: »

Annex C is comparing whats required with whats considered industry best practice

How would you suggest appliance soundness testing is performed?

What we are saying, is using a manometer and the correct testing times/procedures, not LDF

if your standing in front of the Judge the only thing he will be interested in is IS813 etc.. or manufactures instructions, industry standards have no bearing especially when opinions on industry standard differ:eek:

16-10-2011 8:47pm

GASMANN wrote: »

on that dgobs you could take out a test nipple from the burner side of an appliance's gas valve and throw it in the bin and an annex e soundness test will hold.

If you you follow a process it will only tell you so much, but you have to make that process as sensible as possible to help rule out as much as possible , no matter what the process is common sense has to be a factor also.

GASMANN · 16-10-2011 8:51pm

DGOBS wrote: »

Agreed (but I do normally check rads etc on a 'boiler service' and any controls, but that's my choice to provide this as part of a service)

But what this thread has ended up being a conversation about is appliance vs installation soundness testing when carrying out a boiler service

yeah i came in on this a bit late.

i agree with a lot of whats being said and would not be inclined to put my own neck on the block by relying on ldf, i have gas detecting equipment, but at the end of the day appliance service requires annex c only.
if you carry out an appliance soundness check with ldf only and miss something, and cause an incident, an investigator will hang you by the boll1x, and the grey area that is annex c soundness testing will become very black and white.
if you are a "competant person" and maintain your testing equipment it doesnt matter whether you use annex c or e , you wont have a problem.

if you spray half a can of ldf on a boiler while putting the cover back on you're going to miss something one day.

"best practice" counts for nothing in court, only the industry regulations.
if you adhere to them your not going to end up in court, simple as.

dgobs this wasnt directed at you personally, just a general point

DGOBS · 16-10-2011 11:29pm

To take that point, industry best practice would be what you would be relying on in court, as IS813 only describes 'what to test' but not the manner in which to test it. (along with BS standards as a code of practice!)

You are also only singing the same hymn as I, I am saying to soundness test and appliance, would require, firstly to use a manometer on the inlet side of the valve for the laid down times and losses (IS813) but also all points on the downstream side of the valve to the combustion chamber would also require checking using either LDF or a sniffer (the sniffer being the preferred option as electronics do not react well to LDF!)

Our discussion here is voicing an opinion on the dangers of what some large gas boiler service companies are doing (LDF on gas valve test nipples supposedly confirming soundness of the appliance) and the fact this has been given supposedly in writing to said company from rgii as an acceptable practice WHICH IT IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT

As Gary here has also said, appliance only soundness testing is a joke, if undertaking work on any gas installation, and installation soundness test should be mandatory

OFTEC REG TECH · 18-12-2011 1:07am

JohnnieK wrote: »

I got a call today, a man in my area got them in as he got a voucher when he switched supplier for a boiler service. They came and half way trough he said he must terminate the service as there is a gas leak on the main probably at the fire, he must now hire an RGI to locate and fix leak before the sevice can finish. I asked the man why didn't the person servicing the boiler fix the leak? He said " I asked him that and he said that he doesn't do that kind of work " He then told me that he has shut the gas down. I asked him did he say how much the test had dropped to which the man replied 2mbar:eek:. The engineer should go back to is813 and look up the section on soundness testing where is states "a pressure drop of 2.5mbar is acceptable on an existing installation".

Unfortunately I could not help the man due to work load and gave him some real gas fitter's numbers.

That's my tupins.

2.5 only acceptable with all appliance isolation valves open not on testing the main line with appliance valves closed

DGOBS · 18-12-2011 5:49pm

Find it hard to leave any GAS LEAK behind me, and the 2.5mbar is only deemed acceptable as long as there in no smell of gas.

Leaks normally get worse, not better!

And you must issue a notice of hazard, type A, whats the heading?
Gas left on, PENDING A RECTIFICATION!

gdavis · 19-12-2011 10:16pm

i got call the other day from a chap who was looking for a third opinion!He replied to phone call from u know who bout getting a boiler service for their "special offer".anyway long story,short,they came serviced boiler,boiler started acting up from next day on i.e stopping,starting etc. so he rang them again but when chap arrived as the boiler was working at time he didnt even look at it just said it was perfect.next day it wouldnt start again so they sent another bloke out who said boiler was knackered and they would replace it for 2k.I was asked to have a look as customer didnt know what to think.When i saw the state of the boiler i was disgusted that someone had issued a certificate of conformance for this boiler after servicing it.on removing the cover the casing around the combustion chamber was corroded to such an extent that it had holes through it,it had been leaking for god knows how long and every component in it was rusted to bits,there was too much more to mention but still a cert was issued!!!!!! go figure1

JohnnieK · 19-12-2011 11:49pm

OFTEC REG TECH wrote: »

2.5 only acceptable with all appliance isolation valves open not on testing the main line with appliance valves closed

Totally aware of that.
My point is these companys are quick to come in and service the appliance (apparently) and are not prepared to rectify ant other issues with the system. Quick money. The rest of use have to pick up the pieces.

anuprising · 20-12-2011 1:57pm

maybe someone could confirm this but I heard today that the lads doing the service get €100 bonus if they condem a boiler and the customer agrees to buy a new one on thier bill ,

Micky Dolenz · 20-12-2011 3:42pm

Was with a client a while back, they had their boiler serviced by a BG agent. The client inform them that they could smell gas from time to time. The guy didn't check it out.

It only came up in converstation after I smelt gas in kitchen. Stuck on a test and sure as anything, there was a leak, behind the cooker. A simple tightening of a nut did it.

Informed my client to report service guy, for all the good it would do.

JohnnieK · 20-12-2011 11:45pm

anuprising wrote: »

maybe someone could confirm this but I heard today that the lads doing the service get €100 bonus if they condem a boiler and the customer agrees to buy a new one on thier bill ,

To be honest I have not heard that before. I wouldn't put it past BG (Sierra) though.

DGOBS · 21-12-2011 7:24pm

Consider it confirmed! Was shocked myself when I checked

spireland32 · 24-03-2012 12:30pm

hi all, APHCI has been working very hard behind the scenes,
we had a press conference in buswells hotel 2 weeks ago. newstalk, daily mail, rte all covered the story. we were on ireland am on tv3 last week.
have spoke with joe duffy about doing a piece on his show. we sent a letter to brussels to the european commissioner on competition. spoke with the competition auth here. there's a meeting in the red cow on thursday at 7pm. we had 90-110 enquires into membership with the recently media attention.

If you are not a member you can attend the red cow hotel this thursday at 7pm and join at the door. or join on our website aphci.ie. we need to work together to take our industry back, we are stronger as a unit. dont leave it to someone else....JOIN NOW!! we are also on twitter search for @aphci

Beware of energy companies "home services team"

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