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A Gaeltacht in Dublin?
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This post had been deleted.Pete_Cavan wrote: »The King of Moo wrote: »All children can and should learn a second language for a variety of reasons, and Irish has a strong presence in this country (TV and radio stations, street signs) so it's a logical choice.
Latin, despite being a truly dead language, was taught for years because it improved a persons ability to learn other languages. Short of bringing back Latin, Irish is a great language for children here to get exposure to and will make it easier to learn another language in the future (eg. Paypal announce they are hiring people with a certain language in a few months time).
And thats before we get into the cultural benefits of preserving a language that has been spoken on this island for more than a thousand years.0 -
Though I'm very much against Irish language window dressing for the sake of some IMHO misguided cultural ideal(no shít sherlock I hear some cry:D), I'm personally saddened by the contraction in native Irish usage that those maps appear to show.
I personally think that that contraction is a good thing. First, as one poster mentioned (anecdotally), it wasn't terribly accurate in the first place. Any county councilor can (theoretically, at least back then) draw a line on a map and call it an Irish-speaking area.
More to the point, I don't think that it is either terribly realistic or beneficial to endeavour to have an entirely bi-lingual island.
Yet, I do think that the Gaelteachts are a fundamentally good idea. I don't think that they should be seen as a means to spread the language to the rest of the island (which has been the traditional view) but rather that they should be used to preserve the language as a living one. So small Gaelteachts are not inherently a bad thing, as long as what is called a Gaelteacht is real.
However, for any of this to work it has to be real. A Gaelteacht will only be culturally viable if it is a Gaelteacht for the love of the language and not for the sake of economic incentives o local politics. Moreover, the same goes for the rest of the country. There is no intrinsic benefit to knowing Irish (in a utilitarian sense). If people want to learn it, and want to speak it, they should be facilitated to the utmost in this endeavour. Forcing people to learn it has not worked, does not work, and will not work.0 -
I live in Clondalkin.
What's not been mentioned so far is that many of the Gaelscoil pupils don't live in the area but are coming in from elsewhere, so why are they being used as justification for a makee-uppee Gaeltacht here?
Being a rather cynical sort at the best of times, I have to wonder how many of these pupils' parents speak Irish in the home? because if they don't, or can't, or can't be bothered, you have to question their motivation - smaller classes? no immigrants? no travellers? bonus LC points??
The urban Gaelscoil movement is often cited as one of the big successes of the language revival movement, instead I see it as one of the most cynical money- and advantage-grubbing exercises ever conceived in the history of the state
I'd much rather there was were a cluster of ET schools here instead of Gaelscoils
The comment above that two-thirds need to be Irish speakers to sustain a Gaeltacht seems reasonable. We'd be doing well to achieve a twentieth of that around here. 'Speaking Irish' during school hours doesn't, and shouldn't, count, it's not real life, and an Irish lane in Tesco's won't make Irish part of real life around here, either.Scrap the cap!
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Real choice for those who don't want religion dominated education, in accordance with their Constitutional rights.
Scrap the cap!
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What's not been mentioned so far is that many of the Gaelscoil pupils don't live in the area but are coming in from elsewhere, so why are they being used as justification for a makee-uppee Gaeltacht here?an Irish lane in Tesco's won't make Irish part of real life around here, either.
Any shop implementing an 'Irish-only' till would be taking a big risk under equality legislation.0 -
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Any shop implementing an 'Irish-only' till would be taking a big risk under equality legislation.deise go deo wrote: »Today, but no one has said anything about just puting up a few signs and pretending that Clondalkin or anywhere else for that matter is a Gaeltacht, thats kinda the whole point of laying down criteria, if an area wants to become a gaeltacht, it has to meet those criteria.So very minimal? Its 30% daily speakers for recognition as a class c Gaeltacht. I would not call that minimal by any strech.Again, nobody is just arbitrarily deciding there will be one in Dublin or Letrim or anywhere else and just sticking up a few Gaeltacht signs,
An experience as a kid in the early 80's summed this up for me. Our school year were invited to an Irish kids programme on RTE. Now few, very few of my classmates would have had more than the cupla focal in actual conversational terms so audience participation was kinda out, or a crap shoot at best. The warm up person was speaking more English than Irish. Anyhow there was engagement with a few kids in the audience during the taping. I was chatting to one of them after the show and he told me he and a few others were regularly in RTE for such things. Plants in other words. Cultural ringers. To the casual viewer, especially a foreign one Irish would have appeared in rude good health among the kidz and they were watching an "Irish language audience", but the reality was very different. Like I say that summed it up for me.
I saw similar while channel hopping more recently. A TG4 "Irelands got the X factor" type show around trad music and dance. Coolaboola. Quite a number of talented folks showed up so I had an oul watch. I did note how many were staring blank eyed and eared when the judges were making their pronouncements as Gaelige and the host had to engage as Bearla with quite a number of participants. A tad odd for a thriving language we all were schooled in, on an Irish language station aimed at and drawing from it's core demographic and with trad Irish singing/dancing. Can't see that happening on a Catalan or Basque or even a Welsh programme to nearly the same degree.
Even one of TG4's "headliners" Ros na Run has had difficulties. The producers have real difficulties finding actors to fill the roles. Particularly male actors.
"Producer Hugh Farley says that many people applying to work on the soap have ‘book Irish’ but lack the fluent, conversational Irish the programme needs."
*where I met a very nice elderly chap whose English was quite limited and my schoolboy Irish made him laugh. I'd say his like have pretty much died out.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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And that's the problem we're having. The meeting of the criteria is untestable and likely BS.
-In the case of Category C, 30% of the population are daily speakers of Irish according to Census data and 10% of families with children in the relevant age cohort are receiving support under the reformed SLG scheme
Seems fairly testable.
-Education (except for English language classes) at primary and secondary level is provided through the medium of Irish for the students in the area.
Seems fairly testable
-Language policies are drafted and implemented in the schools to support the use of Irish as a social language outside of the classroom.
Does the school have a plan on how to achieve this, seems fairly testable, if its being achieved is another question, but it is a usefull criteria.
-Language-centred family support services are available (including childcare services, pre-school services and family advisory services), with special arrangements made, as appropriate, for children who are native speakers of Irish and for children who do not speak Irish in the home.
Seems fairly testable
-Youth clubs, summer camps and sporting and other social events providing entertainment and activities for the young are run through the medium of Irish and effective language policies are implemented.
Seems fairly testable
-Religious services are available in the area through the medium of Irish.
Seems fairly testableNeither would I, if such an area existed outside the Aran islands and a couple of other small areas. I strongly suspect it doesn't and that's for a "class C" relic Gaeltacht. One presumes Class B and A exist? If so, I really doubt one exists in any practical way beyond the aforementioned islands.
Why is that?That's precisely what the underlying suspicion is. I've traveled and stayed all over this nation of ours since I was a kid and mostly in the rural areas. A goodly chunk of whom were Gaeltachts. Outside of Achill island in the late 70's*, I can recall hearing Irish in Mayo once. I can't honestly recall hearing it in Clare or Kerry, though I heard it in Donegal a few times. Yes I was passing through. I was a "tourist", but I was a tourist in Bilbao for a long weekend and heard more Basque as basic everyday conversation and communication in that weekend than I've heard Irish in a lifetime outside of my schooling and Irish language media.
It makes a big difference if you actually speak Irish, I have been to several Gaeltacht areas, most often An Rinn in Waterford. An Rinn is not a strong Gaeltacht by any strech of the imagination, but I never had any problems using Irish when I was there, a freind of mine from Dublin, living in An Rinn for the last few years has a daughter in the local school, Irish is spoken on the playground and outside the school gate, in the pub it depends on the night, some nights there would'nt be much Irish spoken, other nights you would'nt hear English.
Gaeltachts like An Rinn are rural areas, everyone knows each other, throw a Jackeen like yourself into the mix and people will expect that you can't speak Irish and respond accordingly, the same happens to me until people actually hear me speaking in Irish.0 -
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I hope you mean in terms of education for children, but surely an adult can learn a language they're not going to use, like Koine Greek for enjoyment, culture or other reasons. I wouldn't view that as "pointless".
I would hope that he does not mean in terms of education for children, the act of learning a language at an early age is beneficial in the development of a child, it being beneficial to their development is not dependent on if they use it later in life or not.0 -
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It's called 'gerrymandering'.I hope you mean in terms of education for children, but surely an adult can learn a language they're not going to use, like Koine Greek for enjoyment, culture or other reasons. I wouldn't view that as "pointless".
This is why the nationalism card is so oft played in these discussions, when all other arguments fail.deise go deo wrote: »Gaeltachts like An Rinn are rural areas, everyone knows each other, throw a Jackeen like yourself into the mix and people will expect that you can't speak Irish and respond accordingly, the same happens to me until people actually hear me speaking in Irish.deise go deo wrote: »I would hope that he does not mean in terms of education for children, the act of learning a language at an early age is beneficial in the development of a child, it being beneficial to their development is not dependent on if they use it later in life or not.
Learning a Germanic language, such as German or a Romance language such as French or Italian, has additional benefits in that learning other, related, languages is a lot easier, down the line. Irish doesn't really have much of an advantage in this regard, unless you intend to learn Welsh at some stage.
I hate being negative overall, but a lot of the arguments being presented here in favour of Irish are pretty damned weak. And this is frustrating because I for one would like the language to actually become a real national language, but am just so fed up at the moronic policies that are put forward in its name that appear to be little more than cash cows for a small cabal of gaelgoirs and am certainly not interested in making a sacrifice for the benefit of their pockets.0 -
Focalbhach wrote: »Why (dare I ask)?
I suppose its a bit of Schadenfreude, I don't have anything against the Irish language only how this country tried to force it down my throat in school 2 ****ing hours a day for 8 years in primary school. To put that in perspective it was followed by 45mins each for English and maths. Thankfully secondary school came and i gave it up and my english and maths improved:)0 -
swimming in a sea wrote: »I suppose its a bit of Schadenfreude, I don't have anything against the Irish language only how this country tried to force it down my throat in school 2 ****ing hours a day for 8 years in primary school. To put that in perspective it was followed by 45mins each for English and maths. Thankfully secondary school came and i gave it up and my english and maths improved:)
I remember in primary school with one teacher, a long time ago, every morning was Irish up until the first break, mid-morning. Then we had religion, every day, until lunch time. Everything else, from English, maths, history and so on would have to share the post lunch period.
With other teachers, religion was was allotted far less time, as was Irish (I think the rule of thumb was that Irish, English and Maths were treated largely equally). Certainty back then, there was little regulation on curriculum at primary level, so that nationalistic Legion of Mary nut-cases, like the first teacher, could squander precious educational time if they so chose.
Nonetheless, even though Irish probably got an inordinate amount of time every day, what you describe is not as much to do with Irish as the teacher you were allotted, from what I can see.0 -
I don't see how. Irish is an official language of the state. Sure I could see some issues with say a Mandarin only till(which would be used more), even then I can't see any law being broken.
Would we tolerate a policy of reserving seats at the front of a bus for 'Irish Speakers Only'? I don't think so.Deise go deo wrote:the act of learning a language at an early age is beneficial in the development of a child,0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »-In the case of Category C, 30% of the population are daily speakers of Irish according to Census data and 10% of families with children in the relevant age cohort are receiving support under the reformed SLG scheme
Seems fairly testable.-Education (except for English language classes) at primary and secondary level is provided through the medium of Irish for the students in the area.
Seems fairly testable-Language policies are drafted and implemented in the schools to support the use of Irish as a social language outside of the classroom.
Does the school have a plan on how to achieve this, seems fairly testable, if its being achieved is another question, but it is a usefull criteria.-Language-centred family support services are available (including childcare services, pre-school services and family advisory services), with special arrangements made, as appropriate, for children who are native speakers of Irish and for children who do not speak Irish in the home.
Seems fairly testable
-Youth clubs, summer camps and sporting and other social events providing entertainment and activities for the young are run through the medium of Irish and effective language policies are implemented.
Seems fairly testable
-Religious services are available in the area through the medium of Irish.
Seems fairly testableWhy is that?It makes a big difference if you actually speak Irish,Gaeltachts like An Rinn are rural areas, everyone knows each other, throw a Jackeen like yourself into the mix and people will expect that you can't speak Irish and respond accordingly, the same happens to me until people actually hear me speaking in Irish.The Corinthian wrote:I hate being negative overall, but a lot of the arguments being presented here in favour of Irish are pretty damned weak. And this is frustrating because I for one would like the language to actually become a real national language, but am just so fed up at the moronic policies that are put forward in its name that appear to be little more than cash cows for a small cabal of gaelgoirs and am certainly not interested in making a sacrifice for the benefit of their pockets.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The Corinthian wrote: »Totally agree. However, unless a language has a very real practical use, it is largely a labour of love and that only attracts marginal interest - like learning Esperanto, Klingon or ancient Aramaic.
This is why the nationalism card is so oft played in these discussions, when all other arguments fail.0 -
Would we tolerate a policy of reserving seats at the front of a bus for 'Irish Speakers Only'? I don't think so.Is the act of forcing a child to speak Irish, 'beneficial'? I'd say it has many negative consequences, as evidenced by the huge number of English speakers that this policy produces.If only the Babylonians would come back and establish a multinational like google, then I could justify my urge to learn Akkadian.:)0
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The Corinthian wrote: »Bah, the vernacular of those nasty blow-ins. I prefer Sumerian, which incidentally shares sentence word order with Irish.
Another funny addition is that we have records of Babylonian scribal students complaining about the fact that they were forced to learn Sumerian in school!0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »Calm down. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting an Irish only till in supermarkets. Could you see them trying to enforce it?The Corinthian wrote: »both by the vast numbers of fluent Irish speakers and the warmth and affection that memories of Peig engender in us all, that the compulsory teaching of Irish has not exactly been a stellar success.0
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Ha!:D
Another funny addition is that we have records of Babylonian scribal students complaining about the fact that they were forced to learn Sumerian in school!The Corinthian wrote: »Bah, the vernacular of those nasty blow-ins. I prefer Sumerian, which incidentally shares sentence word order with Irish.It's one thing teaching children a foreign language of their choice, such as French, and praising them for their efforts. It's another thing telling them they must learn Irish and that it's their true 'native' language.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The Corinthian wrote: »Calm down. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting an Irish only till in supermarkets. Could you see them trying to enforce it?
Nonetheless we do grant advantages to Gaeltacht areas in terms of public spending.
We grant advantages to Gaelscoils with bonus LC points, lower pupil/teacher ratio, and, let's face it, a less than all-inclusive enrolment, whatever the enrolment policy may say. How is that really any better, or more fair, than the situation in the US pre-Brown vs Board of Education ? It's using public moneys collected from all, but allocating them in an unequal way.Scrap the cap!
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You're being very charitable to them. It was one of the few tangible examples given by a proponent of granting 'Network Gaeltact' status to Clondalkin. A not well-thought out idea.It's one thing teaching children a foreign language of their choice, such as French, and praising them for their efforts. It's another thing telling them they must learn Irish and that it's their true 'native' language.
Secondly, being forced to learn your true 'native' language is not simply limited to Irish. The parents of immigrant children frequently force their children to do this, for example.
So I would not object to children being 'forced' to learn, per say.
What I would object to is that it is a policy that has failed; that Irish is taught, as a compulsory subject, throughout the lifespan of primary and secondary school, constantly, for around a dozen years, that passing exams in it was essential to even passing your Leaving Certificate, or getting into an NUI college, that doing your exams in Irish would even gain you bonus marks, and so on - has not created a bilingual society.
Instead, it has created a society of at best Oirish* speakers and unfairly eroded good will towards the language in many who resent how a good portion of their education was essentially squandered with little to show for it.
Worse still, this system has created a culture of graft in a small cabal, that has absolutely no interest in the language in reality.Ancient Hebrew is similar I gather. Ancient Egyptian isn't that far out either. I tried having a go at the latter years ago. Makes reading Peig seem like a joyful exercise.Nonetheless we do grant advantages to Gaeltacht areas in terms of public spending.
We grant advantages to Gaelscoils with bonus LC points, lower pupil/teacher ratio, and, let's face it, a less than all-inclusive enrolment, whatever the enrolment policy may say. How is that really any better, or more fair, than the situation in the US pre-Brown vs Board of Education ? It's using public moneys collected from all, but allocating them in an unequal way.
So there's nothing new or, in theory, particularly unusual by the incentives used to promote Irish.
However, when the incentives become de facto the end rather than the means is where you have a problem, because you no longer see a purpose to them meant for the common good, only the inequality they represent. In this regard, I'd agree that many of the policies that have been used to promote Irish have become ethically bankrupt; they simply have failed to make any declarable difference to the language and, as the article that kicked off this thread demonstrates, have become the end in themselves, with the language relegated to the role of an altruistic by-product at best.
So on one level I'd disagree with you; such incentives are not bad in themselves and can be very beneficial, however in the case of Irish they have essentially failed and because they now overshadow the language in terms of importance, are probably an obstacle to much-needed reform that could actually benefit the language.
I doubt very much that you, or others, would feel such resentment at such incentives and inequalities had they actually succeeded in making Ireland a bilingual society. However, I do think it perfectly natural that people do feel this way given their failure and perpetuation in the face of this failure.
* Oirish. Pseudo-Irish language; composed almost completely of English, with a few words or phrases in Irish - when actually spoken, which is practically never. Speakers in reality retain cúpla focal, which they will use occasionally in clichéd fashion (greetings, toasts, etc), but in reality cannot string together a complete sentence. Oirish speakers will self-assess themselves as having some Irish, or even be so bold as to suggest they have conversational Irish, but as they never actually use it, they never realize how little they actually have.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »Secondly, being forced to learn your true 'native' language is not simply limited to Irish. The parents of immigrant children frequently force their children to do this, for example.
The major policy failure is that the needs of the Irish lobby have been placed ahead of the needs of the children.
Is Clondalkin's biggest need a Gaeltacht with an Irish language till?0 -
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This comparison is not valid as there is a difference between forcing children to learn a language that might have been spoken hundreds of years ago by some of their ancestors and teaching them a language still spoken by their parents and immediate relatives.The major policy failure is that the needs of the Irish lobby have been placed ahead of the needs of the children.
This is not meant to defend the present system, only to point out that the principles you are putting forward do not always hold true.Is Clondalkin's biggest need a Gaeltacht with an Irish language till?0 -
Thought in light of the Subject matter, this would make an interesting read
Polish speakers outnumber Gaeilgeoiri in Republic, fakt!
Irish News
SATURDAY MARCH 31 2012
Connla Young
newsdesk@irishnews.com
MORE people living in the Republic speak Polish than Irish, the state's latest census has found. Irish government census figures reveal that 82,600 people speak Irish every day outside school while 119,526 speak Polish.
It also revealed that just 35 per cent of people living in Gaeltacht areas say they speak Irish on a daily basis outside the education system. In addition to that more than 53,000 people speak French at home every day in the south.
Last night Irish language activists said they were not concerned by the census results. Julian de Spainn, general secretary of Conradb na Gaeilge, which promotes the Irish language, says his organisation is upbeat about the future.
"We are very encouraged that 5,000 more people are speaking Irish every day," he said. "Around 1.7 million people have the ability to use Irish and the challenge for us is to get people who have Irish to use it even more."
Manager at An Droichead Irish cultural centre on the Ormeau Road in Belfast, Pol Deeds, said the figures need to be put into context. "It was to be expected. You can't look at the figures in isolation. The influx of Polish speakers is down to the influx workers.
"It shows us exactly where we thought we are at and there's a lot of work that needs
to be done. But there are organisations tasked with doing that work. "The Irish language is in a much healthier state now than it was a few years ago- and we have a whole sector dedicated to promoting it."0 -
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If he and his group seriously think "Around 1.7 million people have the ability to use Irish" then they've been smoking something stronger than tobacco.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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If he and his group seriously think "Around 1.7 million people have the ability to use Irish" then they've been smoking something stronger than tobacco.
One should read in-between the lines of such statements; 'ability to use' is a pretty broad statement and does not imply any capacity to string together more than a handful of words and phrases; it's essentially tokenism and what I would call Oirish and is indeed spoken by the majority in Ireland:
Lack of reliable data on the language I believe only benefits those interested parties who have a stake in maintaining the status quo, rather than the Irish language.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »Lack of reliable data on the language I believe only benefits those interested parties who have a stake in maintaining the status quo, rather than the Irish language.
Well, the population increased by 7.4% and the number of people claiming to speak Irish rose by 7.1%.
The leader of Conradh na Gaellge spins this slippage as '5,000 more people speak Irish every day.'
Nobody questioned our expensive, sacred cow's media management.0 -
Old thread- I know. But being from Clondalkin I'm very curious; has there been any advancements on this or has the idea just slowly died?0
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Died on its Aras thankfully.
Although said Aras has been putting up lots more banners on Orchard Road recently :eek:Scrap the cap!
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »Died on its Aras thankfully.
Although said Aras has been putting up lots more banners on Orchard Road recently :eek:
Pity, would've been a huge plus for the village.
Áras and the Gaelscoil seem to be prospering so the future looks bright.0 -
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Please do not resurrect zombie threads.The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34
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