N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

Cork Trucker · 15-09-2018 3:06pm

From Eoin English of Irish Examiner

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1040953113014878209

hans aus dtschl · 17-09-2018 9:31am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Here’s a question. What will happen to the old Little Island west junction. Looks like the entrance will remain open but the exit removed?

I don't believe the entrance will remain long-term, I think that's a drawing error. I think the Tunnel Maintenance building is the only thing being facilitated by that road, long-term. Can't remember why I'm thinking that, but there would be a bit of conflict with the N8 East to N40 South movement if it stayed.

JupiterKid · 18-09-2018 12:45am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What other country in Europe would we be talking about putting a movement like that through two roundabouts on the main route between the two biggest cities?

Can you think of one?

Well, it's not going to change now so no point arguing the toss.

Just don't be surprised when you see the hash they make of the CNR and M20 junctions.

Come back on this thread, nay - this forum when you have finished school Kermit...

Kermit.de.frog · 18-09-2018 11:18pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

Come back on this thread, nay - this forum when you have finished school Kermit...

Answer the question. I'm looking for ONE other country and we'll do our research to see if they are as incompetent as we are.

P.S No personal insults says one of the mods.

BelfastVanMan · 18-09-2018 11:55pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

JupiterKid wrote: »

Come back on this thread, nay - this forum when you have finished school Kermit...

Answer the question. I'm looking for ONE other country and we'll do our research to see if they are as incompetent as we are.

P.S No personal insults says one of the mods.

Where I live...Northern Ireland.

We tend to look to the rest of our friends in the South with a certain degree of envy; our roads are appalling in comparison. Mostly.

Aontachtoir · 19-09-2018 3:57am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Answer the question. I'm looking for ONE other country and we'll do our research to see if they are as incompetent as we are.
P.S No personal insults says one of the mods.

In fairness, Kermit, you make a lot of statements which could reasonably be viewed as provocative. I'm not certain whether this is intentional or unintentional. However, on these forums it is difficult to tell the difference between people making controversial arguments in good faith and trolls making controversial arguments in bad faith.

I will take you up on your challenge to identify another European country that would have two roundabouts or more on the main road between its two largest cities. My answer is Norway. Oslo is 463 km from Bergen, the second largest city. Oslo is about the same size as Dublin, and Bergen is significantly larger than Cork. Most of the route between the two cities is single-carriageway, with multiple roundabouts and at-grade junctions along the way.

Please clarify whether or not you believe Norway is incompetent.

Cork Trucker · 28-09-2018 6:16pm

Probably the best place for this

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/motorists-warned-of-major-works-on-one-of-cork-citys-busiest-roads-872247.html

Engineers confirmed today that the Silversprings Interchange scheme on the eastern approach to the city centre will get underway on October 1 and should be complete before the end of the year

Separately, improvement works are also proposed at the Little Island interchange.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-09-2018 12:25am

Small issue but I see on the documentation they are going for those hideous bulky gantries (these must be standard now) they put on the M50 (the old British style) instead of going for the slender, more visually appealing modern ones you see around US, Europe and UK.

Sums up Ireland really ala the stackabout at Rathmorrisey. Ape what the Brits were doing 20 years ago 20 years later and remain behind the times.

grogi · 30-09-2018 8:43am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Small issue but I see on the documentation they are going for those hideous bulky gantries (these must be standard now) they put on the M50 (the old British style) instead of going for the slender, more visually appealing modern ones you see around US, Europe and UK.

Sums up Ireland really ala the stackabout at Rathmorrisey. Ape what the Brits were doing 20 years ago 20 years later and remain behind the times.

Do you know what is the wind resistance of each solution and wind predicitons in any of the mentioned region?

Live at Three · 30-09-2018 9:06am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sums up Ireland really

Hey..stop Ireland-bashing! I'm from there!

BelfastVanMan · 30-09-2018 1:11pm

Live at Three wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sums up Ireland really

Hey..stop Ireland-bashing! I'm from there!

Most of us are, here, to be fair.
Just ignore it...that's what the rest of us are trying to do...:-)

Carawaystick · 30-09-2018 8:06pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Answer the question. I'm looking for ONE other country and we'll do our research to see if they are as incompetent as we are.

P.S No personal insults says one of the mods.

But it's not the main road between Dublin and Cork, that will go via the tunnel to the south side with one signal controlled junction towards Cork, and none leaving Cork to Dublin.

If the N40 Northern part is built, there'll be very little traffic in by Tivoli

marno21 · 30-09-2018 8:14pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

But it's not the main road between Dublin and Cork, that will go via the tunnel to the south side with one signal controlled junction towards Cork, and none leaving Cork to Dublin.

If the N40 Northern part is built, there'll be very little traffic in by Tivoli

Indeed. When the North Ring is built, Glanmire-Dunkettle will become M40 more than likely and the N8 from Dunkettle to the city will become a regional road. The main priority for this project is connectivity between the national roads, e.g. the M8, N25 and N40

Cork Trucker · 13-10-2018 12:39pm

Works are stepping up a gear next week for the interchange.

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Works-progress-in-October-on-100m-Dunkettle-project-a30295a4-3a0a-439e-a96c-a992015f0810-ds

Truckermal · 13-10-2018 5:16pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Works are stepping up a gear next week for the interchange.

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Works-progress-in-October-on-100m-Dunkettle-project-a30295a4-3a0a-439e-a96c-a992015f0810-ds

I couldn't believe my eyes yesterday morning not a car to be seen at 9am from any direction!

AugustusMinimus · 13-10-2018 6:30pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Works are stepping up a gear next week for the interchange.

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Works-progress-in-October-on-100m-Dunkettle-project-a30295a4-3a0a-439e-a96c-a992015f0810-ds

Any idea what exactly is being done. Do we know when heavy construction is due to start?

marno21 · 13-10-2018 6:34pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Any idea what exactly is being done. Do we know when heavy construction is due to start?

Advance works ongoing on the actual interchange site, more work ongoing at Silversprings.

Full works to begin in Q1 2019.

AugustusMinimus · 13-10-2018 6:41pm

marno21 wrote: »

Advance works ongoing on the actual interchange site, more work ongoing at Silversprings.

Full works to begin in Q1 2019.

Any timeline on the works at Silverprings. Surely 6 months is more than enough?

Cork Trucker · 14-10-2018 10:23am

Truckermal wrote: »

I couldn't believe my eyes yesterday morning not a car to be seen at 9am from any direction!

At Dunkettle or Silversprings? I was too busy trawling the kip that is called the N28.

DerMutt · 20-10-2018 5:20pm

Part of the latest email update.

Dunkettle Interchange Project:

At the main Dunkettle site, advance works including detailed ground investigations and ecological mitigation measures are continuing across the site.
In addition, construction of the site office for the project is now underway at the western end of Little Island.

Silversprings:

Footpath construction and road resurfacing to regularise the traffic lanes in the area for both inbound and outbound traffic.
At Silversprings, construction of the new boundary wall at HSS is continuing with on road elements of the works continuing to be progressed under night-time working in order to minimise disruption to traffic.
Works on the extension to the centre median will get underway next week and we hope to have two lanes established for inbound traffic before the end of November 2018.

A 24-hour helpline has been established for the Dunkettle project, incorporating Silversprings – (021)2021190.

AugustusMinimus · 21-10-2018 7:34pm

Just so thought on the Dunkettle Roundabout which should be considered in conjunction with the Dunkettle Interchange.

The Tivoli container port will eventually be completely redeveloped for medium to high density residential usage.

A few thoughts.

The current entry and exit on its own is not sufficient for potentially 10,000 people. A new dumb bell interchange should be built where the Dunkettle Roundabout is. Would freeflow N8 traffic and give a second access point to the new development.

AugustusMinimus · 21-10-2018 10:17pm

Thinking further. Have a new dumbbell interchange to create 2 road access points.

In addition, maybe a further foot bridge over the railway tracks mid way down the Tivoli DC. I’d also consider a foot bridge over across to Blackrock which would help tie the development into light rail between Mahon and the City Centre.

If the money was there I’d put the rail line underground via cut and cover. That’s dreamland though.

EnzoScifo · 21-10-2018 10:27pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Just so thought on the Dunkettle Roundabout which should be considered in conjunction with the Dunkettle Interchange.

The Tivoli container port will eventually be completely redeveloped for medium to high density residential usage.

A few thoughts.

The current entry and exit on its own is not sufficient for potentially 10,000 people. A new dumb bell interchange should be built where the Dunkettle Roundabout is. Would freeflow N8 traffic and give a second access point to the new development.

With the Tivoli docks development planned to have a railway station and sustainable transport solutions, I don't think the planners are interested in drawing more traffic there.

Having a freeflow to the N8 West also feeds traffic to roads that can't sustain it. I'd imagine once the M40 North Ring is built the N8 will be detrunked anyway with M40/N27 being the preferred route to the City Centre.

AugustusMinimus · 21-10-2018 10:30pm

EnzoScifo wrote: »

With the Tivoli docks development planned to have a railway station and sustainable transport solutions, I don't think the planners are interested in drawing more traffic there.

Having a freeflow to the N8 West also feeds traffic to roads that can't sustain it. I'd imagine once the M40 North Ring is built the N8 will be detrunked anyway with M40/N27 being the preferred route to the City Centre.

The existing junction cannot take current traffic, don’t mind traffic from 4,000 residential units / 10,000 additional people. There seems to be a will in Cork to do large developments with single access points and then wonder why access is ****.

I can also never see them try to funnel more traffic down the N27. Traffic backs up worse on the N27 compared to the N8 in the mornings and doing this is only adding further traffic to the Kinsale Roundabout and the N40 which are both creaking.

marno21 · 21-10-2018 10:47pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Just so thought on the Dunkettle Roundabout which should be considered in conjunction with the Dunkettle Interchange.

The Tivoli container port will eventually be completely redeveloped for medium to high density residential usage.

A few thoughts.

The current entry and exit on its own is not sufficient for potentially 10,000 people. A new dumb bell interchange should be built where the Dunkettle Roundabout is. Would freeflow N8 traffic and give a second access point to the new development.

I think the biggest issue here would be the proximity of the Dunkettle R/A to the Dunkettle Interchange itself. Same as the issue with the Bandon/Sarsfield interchanges on the N40 and the Togher/Kinsale Rd interchanges too. The eastbound offramp for the N8 -> M8 link at Dunkettle starts further west now and I think any new interchange there would be too close to Dunkettle.

The one plus is that in 10 years or so, with the Tivoli Port closed and the North Ring replaced by a motorway that actually serves its purpose, the Silversprings Interchange will be quieter and this may prove sufficient for the needs of the Tivoli area.

EnzoScifo wrote: »

With the Tivoli docks development planned to have a railway station and sustainable transport solutions, I don't think the planners are interested in drawing more traffic there.

Having a freeflow to the N8 West also feeds traffic to roads that can't sustain it. I'd imagine once the M40 North Ring is built the N8 will be detrunked anyway with M40/N27 being the preferred route to the City Centre.

I think the N8 being detrunked is only a matter of time. Long term more park and rides, especially using the rail lines, is absolutely paramout. I expect to see this in the Cork Transportation Strategy due out shortly from the Council & NTA.

marno21 · 21-10-2018 10:50pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The existing junction cannot take current traffic, don’t mind traffic from 4,000 residential units / 10,000 additional people. There seems to be a will in Cork to do large developments with single access points and then wonder why access is ****.

Most of that is in fairness, down to the completely inadequate funding of infrastructure projects in Cork in general. Cork's infrastructure backlog is continually growing due to expansion, and the lack of anything being done. At least Dunkettle is starting soon.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I can also never see them try to funnel more traffic down the N27. Traffic backs up worse on the N27 compared to the N8 in the mornings and doing this is only adding further traffic to the Kinsale Roundabout and the N40 which are both creaking.

Agreed on the last sentence but at this stage I'm not sure what can be done without large scale investment.

hans aus dtschl · 22-10-2018 10:05am

The Tivoli railway station should re-open at a minimum. There's talk of a park-and-ride at Dunkettle and I believe from the drawings I've seen that this is to the North-East of the new Tunnel Interchange.

There's also a plan for a greenway-style route from Little Island through to the container terminal partly using the existing causeway.

My suggestions based on the above:
Create a 4-way interchange at the Dunkettle R/A with priority to the East-West corridor. Much like the existing tunnel interchange.
Make this the primary entrance/exit to the new development.
Move the proposed park-and-ride to the Eastern end of the existing container port, which is currently a massive car park for new cars.

Basically what I'm saying is: instead of worrying about the rail line as if it's "hemming in" the junction at the south, just build up over it and incorporate it as a major part of the design.

I'd love to see a freeflow cycle/pedestrian route incorporated from the Glanmire side through such an interchange, linking up with the greenway. Design it wide and tall enough to incorporate future rail towards Glanmire. That one would be a very significant challenge: probably not in my lifetime.

AugustusMinimus · 22-10-2018 10:27am

I think the park and ride should be east of the Dunkettle interchange. Keep cars out of Tivoli. Only addding to the traffic.

hans aus dtschl · 22-10-2018 10:41am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I think the park and ride should be east of the Dunkettle interchange. Keep cars out of Tivoli. Only addding to the traffic.

It's very close to Little Island though: would it not make more sense to just scale up Little Island station?

Edit: there's nothing then between the east of the Dunkettle interchange and town.

AugustusMinimus · 22-10-2018 10:47am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It's very close to Little Island though: would it not make more sense to just scale up Little Island station?

Edit: there's nothing then between the east of the Dunkettle interchange and town.

Have a new station in Tivoli to serve the new residential developments but don’t have a Park and Ride there IMO.

There’s a large train yard by the Dunkettle Interchange which is a better location.

hans aus dtschl · 22-10-2018 11:01am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Have a new station in Tivoli to serve the new residential developments but don’t have a Park and Ride there IMO.

There’s a large train yard by the Dunkettle Interchange which is a better location.

I'm not sure that train yard is earmarked for the park and ride. Have a glance at this drawing of the junction (Jun 2017).
https://www.corkcoco.ie/sites/default/files/2018-01/32107200-CYC-P8-002%20Rev1%20A1.pdf
The drawing shows something to the NW of the freight depot.

The freight depot about 1km from Little Island train station at their nearest points too. I can't see Iarnród Éireann building a new station there, it couldn't be cost effective?

Perhaps we're derailing the discussion here a little with talk of the Park and Ride. More importantly, back on point, the Dunkettle Roundabout needs to be upgraded. You can see from the above drawing how they're signallising it now.

Pete_Cavan · 23-10-2018 10:11am

I don't know if it has been mentioned here but I see on CCC website that they currently have an open consultation on Little Island Traffic and Transport Plan.

Long term, the rail line between Little Island station and SS should have four stations (LI, Dunkettle P&R, Tivoli East and Tivoli West) in that 5km stretch in a DART style service.

hans aus dtschl · 23-10-2018 10:39am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Long term, the rail line between Little Island station and SS should have four stations (LI, Dunkettle P&R, Tivoli East and Tivoli West) in that 5km stretch in a DART style service.

Do you mind telling us: where did you get this from?
I've been engaging with them on the Little Island Transportation Study, but didn't see this one.

spacetweek · 29-10-2018 10:33am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Do you mind telling us: where did you get this from?
I've been engaging with them on the Little Island Transportation Study, but didn't see this one.

He's saying they *should*, not that they will.

hans aus dtschl · 30-10-2018 11:44am

spacetweek wrote: »

He's saying they *should*, not that they will.

Sorry, I read it wrongly.

Pete_Cavan · 30-10-2018 11:45am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Do you mind telling us: where did you get this from?
I've been engaging with them on the Little Island Transportation Study, but didn't see this one.

As mentioned above, I said should. I am talking long term but with the potential of Tivoli for housing people and the length of train line running along side it, I wouldn't be limiting it to a single train station.

hans aus dtschl · 30-10-2018 12:02pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

As mentioned above, I said should. I am talking long term but with the potential of Tivoli for housing people and the length of train line running along side it, I wouldn't be limiting it to a single train station.

I'm in the same frame of mind myself. One station there isn't enough.

marno21 · 02-11-2018 3:12pm

www.dunkettle.ie

Live at Three · 29-11-2018 11:35pm

Anyone else find the traffic gone worse here in recent months? I'm leaving home at the same time but getting into work later and later each morning...

blindsider · 30-11-2018 12:29am

VMS seems to have been off air for the last week....any reason for this?

Truckermal · 30-11-2018 7:02am

Live at Three wrote: »

Anyone else find the traffic gone worse here in recent months? I'm leaving home at the same time but getting into work later and later each morning...

Yes I'm the same trying to get through the Tunnel coming from the west is taking longer every morning! I'm getting up earlier now trying to be through for 7am.

Bacchus · 01-12-2018 1:35pm

Live at Three wrote: »

Anyone else find the traffic gone worse here in recent months? I'm leaving home at the same time but getting into work later and later each morning...

There's usually a rise in traffic volume in Nov/Dec (in my experience). Between people running out of holidays at work (or simply not wanting to take holidays at this time of year) and Christmas closing in (which affects the evening rush hour more than the morning), it's just a busy time for traffic.

AugustusMinimus · 02-12-2018 4:43pm

Is there some work on site at the moment? Looks like there has been some earth movements on the north side of the junction.

Cork Trucker · 05-12-2018 12:49pm

Any idea on the official start date for construction? Must be nearing now surely, clearance work aside of course which is already visible.

marno21 · 05-12-2018 12:51pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Any idea on the official start date for construction? Must be nearing now surely, clearance work aside of course which is already visible.

Sometime after Christmas. Contractor appointed and everything so it shouldn't be too long

Bacchus · 05-12-2018 1:24pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Any idea on the official start date for construction? Must be nearing now surely, clearance work aside of course which is already visible.

From the last email update...

Ground investigation works will continue across the entire site up until the Christmas break with target completion date in February 2019.

The site office should be completed too.

So, I'd expect March at earliest to see actual construction to begin.

hans aus dtschl · 05-12-2018 2:47pm

It looks like the site office is most of the way done, if not complete. Plenty "normal" vehicles outside it the last time I passed a few days ago.

Live at Three · 05-12-2018 5:13pm

Late for work for the second time this week due to accidents on the South Ring....it's some pain.
This has probably been debated here before but will the improved flow southbound at dunkettle 'push' the congestion along to the next pinch point, ie. Rochestown merging ramp?

On a side note...drivers who drive on the right hand lane coming off the n25 down to the tunnel, then break the red light to jump the queue and slip into the middle lane should be shot.

I see people breaking this red light every morning. Worse are the people who let them in, holding up all the people behind who had the manners not to skip the queue.

marno21 · 05-12-2018 5:19pm

Live at Three wrote: »

Late for work for the second time this week due to accidents on the South Ring....it's some pain.
This has probably been debated here before but will the improved flow southbound at dunkettle 'push' the congestion along to the next pinch point, ie. Rochestown merging ramp?

On a side note...drivers who drive on the right hand lane coming off the n25 down to the tunnel, then break the red light to jump the queue and slip into the middle lane should be shot.

I see people breaking this red light every morning. Worse are the people who let them in, holding up all the people behind who had the manners not to skip the queue.

Yes.

Bacchus · 05-12-2018 5:48pm

Live at Three wrote: »

Late for work for the second time this week due to accidents on the South Ring....it's some pain.
This has probably been debated here before but will the improved flow southbound at dunkettle 'push' the congestion along to the next pinch point, ie. Rochestown merging ramp?

It think there were 2 or 3 accidents this morning that resulted in the car park that was the N25 this morning heading towards the tunnel. Huge tailbacks.

I think it's been brought up before alright that the Dunkettle upgrade will be great but it will no doubt just kick the can down the road in both directions (east/west). As it is, even when there aren't accidents by Rochestown, traffic is almost ground to a halt anyway dealing with merging traffic. And for anyone heading to Mahon, they'll just get to queue at the Mahon slip road for that much longer.

Live at Three wrote: »

On a side note...drivers who drive on the right hand lane coming off the n25 down to the tunnel, then break the red light to jump the queue and slip into the middle lane should be shot.

I see people breaking this red light every morning. Worse are the people who let them in, holding up all the people behind who had the manners not to skip the queue.

I've joined the ranks of the inside (leftmost) lane. My blood pressure can no longer handle the d*cks that cut in ahead of the middle lane to skip the queue, nor the muppets that allow it to happen. Too many times I've been behind some dope flicking through his phone, or some other dope doing her makeup, not paying attention to the traffic moving ahead of them and in slips a car from the right. What's worse, those d*cks have some sort of code where once one gets in they let in another of their "right lane" buddies and so on and so on, so one car quickly become 3 or 4 cars jumping ahead of you and you're stuck. Life on the left lane is a slow but steady (and peaceful) life.

N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

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