What way is the Bus tendering plan meant to work?

Arc_Light · 01-05-2015 12:14am #1

I've read about the DART Airport Express, the Luas lines to Lucan and Bray, I see they release 50 page PDFs about north Dublins transport options ...but nowhere can I find any simple explanation of how this bus plan that is causes drivers to loose their sh1t is supposed to work, and to be frank, the strike thread is terrible for someone who wants to understand it.
It seems to vary between a slagging match, what I call a peasant-off, and then little tiny bits of info about the plan leak out, like a suggestion I just read that the NTA barred all Irish companies from competing

So what's it going to be? It's hard to decide if you support the strike or not when ZERO info about the actual bloody plan is out there. Is it going to be like the Luas where the busses, stops, garages etc are owned by the NTA and it's just MANAGEMENT that's competed for? With pay rates and employment security the same under that stupid TUPE law? Does anyone know the actual plan? Not rumors now...I want FACTs.

xper · 01-05-2015 1:40am

Knock yourself out:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/public-service-obligation-contracts/
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/competitive-tendering-process-for-contracted-bus-services-pre-qualification-questionnaires-issued/

househero · 01-05-2015 1:50am

xper wrote: »

Knock yourself out:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/public-service-obligation-contracts/
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/competitive-tendering-process-for-contracted-bus-services-pre-qualification-questionnaires-issued/

After you read all that,come back to tell us

dfx- · 01-05-2015 1:56am

Something like this:

The NTA are going to offer other companies the chance to operate a selection of routes - mostly low volume routes or infrequent orbital routes first.

Companies that meet the NTA criteria for candidates can bid to 'win' those routes.

The winner operates the route with NTA owned buses on NTA specified timetables and probably stored in NTA owned garages.

The NTA gets all money from the farebox.

The operators get a predetermined amount of money for operating the service and fines if they do not.

Obviously, the cheaper the company can operate the NTA timetable, the more profit they make so will drive their costs down wherever possible.

What happens if companies cannot afford to operate the likes of the 114 and 161 cheaply enough for the amount they get, who knows? Prior to this strike, it was a case of who cares?

househero · 01-05-2015 2:58am

dfx- wrote: »

Something like this:

The NTA are going to offer other companies the chance to operate a selection of routes - mostly low volume routes or infrequent orbital routes first.

Companies that meet the NTA criteria for candidates can bid to 'win' those routes.

The winner operates the route with NTA owned buses on NTA specified timetables and probably stored in NTA owned garages.

The NTA gets all money from the farebox.

The operators get a predetermined amount of money for operating the service and fines if they do not.

Obviously, the cheaper the company can operate the NTA timetable, the more profit they make so will drive their costs down wherever possible.

What happens if companies cannot afford to operate the likes of the 114 and 161 cheaply enough for the amount they get, who knows? Prior to this strike, it was a case of who cares?

On that basis, I support the strike.

What kind of system is that? The customer pays the same (if not higher) fares... But the company cuts standards to boost profits!?! While the NTA takes the fares so no reinvestment?? That's not good for the customer.

dfx- · 01-05-2015 3:32am

Indeed, but that is largely how DB is expected to work as it is now - in terms of NTA must approve everything and own everything, they have the ability to change the contract on a whim and are yet seemingly responsible for very little themselves.

That (tendering) is the road the NTA have chosen to go down blindfolded.

The strike is about what happens when an employee moves from one company that loses a contract to the next 'winner' of the same contract, details it appears the NTA haven't worked out or thought about. I think the NBRU has now brought in questioning the whole tendering process though.

hmmm · 01-05-2015 9:01am

househero wrote: »

What kind of system is that? The customer pays the same (if not higher) fares... But the company cuts standards to boost profits!?! While the NTA takes the fares so no reinvestment?? That's not good for the customer.

The NTA sets the standards as part of the tender. So standards will not drop, otherwise the route will be given to someone else.

The NTA is already the one doing the reinvestment. All new Dublin buses are bought by the NTA.

dublindiehard · 01-05-2015 9:08am

The NTA is investing a lot
- LEAP
- RTPI
- Intergrated journey planner
- Mapping
- Ticket Mahines at Dublin Airport
- Transport information screens at key locations
- Wifi
- New Buses

Etc

loyatemu · 01-05-2015 11:04am

so in theory its:

the same buses
the same drivers
the same timetable
the same routes
different management and back office (2 areas where DB are allegedly somewhat overstaffed).

what about depots? servicing?

presumably the idea is that the private operators will do a more efficient job and be able to make a profit while also reducing the cost to the NTA of providing the service; but there's a fairly limited number of areas in which they can be more efficient.

antoinolachtnai · 01-05-2015 11:57am

The cost per vehicle km on BE and BD is very high by international standards. There is plenty of overall scope for reducing costs.

It is more complex in that a number of small changes can make a significant difference.

'Profit' is not just money that the bus company pays to big bosses. It is also the money that pays banks their interest and provides a return on capital to shareholders. State owned companies are supposed to make profits too, so that they can give their shareholder a return. They are also supposed to be able to raise their own funds from the banks and markets. The CIE businesses don't do this but the likes of ESB do.

cdebru · 01-05-2015 12:36pm

loyatemu wrote: »

so in theory its:

the same buses
the same drivers
the same timetable
the same routes
different management and back office (2 areas where DB are allegedly somewhat overstaffed).

what about depots? servicing?

presumably the idea is that the private operators will do a more efficient job and be able to make a profit while also reducing the cost to the NTA of providing the service; but there's a fairly limited number of areas in which they can be more efficient.

There is the one main area and is about 70% of total costs and that is labour costs, most of the rest of the costs are fuel, oil, parts, etc and the cost of those are largely outside of the operators control.
There are only 2 ways to cut labour costs reduce staff or reduce wages or both.

Other than that it is cutting corners, less servicing, not replacing parts as early, cut back on training etc

dfx- · 01-05-2015 12:47pm

hmmm wrote: »

The NTA sets the standards as part of the tender. So standards will not drop, otherwise the route will be given to someone else.

The NTA is already the one doing the reinvestment. All new Dublin buses are bought by the NTA.

What if there are a limited number of candidates and it's a case of 'we have to work together'. The NTA set the standard, but they can also change the standard..

So the NTA can reduce the timetable, reduce the standards, reduce the service to make it work.....

cdebru · 01-05-2015 1:22pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The cost per vehicle km on BE and BD is very high by international standards. There is plenty of overall scope for reducing costs.

It is more complex in that a number of small changes can make a significant difference.

'Profit' is not just money that the bus company pays to big bosses. It is also the money that pays banks their interest and provides a return on capital to shareholders. State owned companies are supposed to make profits too, so that they can give their shareholder a return. They are also supposed to be able to raise their own funds from the banks and markets. The CIE businesses don't do this but the likes of ESB do.

Whats the cost per Kilometre in Dublin Bus, and what is the cost per kilometre in London which is the model the NTA are following ?

Dublin €4.63 per km
London ( Tendered operated by private companies) €5.15 per km

You are posting nonsense again.

antoinolachtnai · 01-05-2015 1:48pm

You are making a nonsense comparison. There is no meaningful comparison to be made between the operating costs in London, an exceptional, large global capital with extremely high cost of living, and Dublin, a small city. London's bus system is also undergoing passenger growth, whereas Dublin's is basically in decline for the last 30 years.

Then you are producing what appear to be nonsense figures. How are you calculating 4.63/km? The figure in 2013 appears to be more like €5.10. You have to take into account the depreciation (which was 26 million euros)

cdebru · 01-05-2015 2:02pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are making a nonsense comparison. There is no meaningful comparison to be made between the operating costs in London, an exceptional, large global capital with extremely high cost of living, and Dublin, a small city. London's bus system is also undergoing passenger growth, whereas Dublin's is basically in decline for the last 30 years.

Then you are producing what appear to be nonsense figures. How are you calculating 4.63/km? The figure in 2013 appears to be more like €5.10. You have to take into account the depreciation (which was 26 million euros)

Operating costs divided by kilometres driven for Dublin is €4.63- 259.6m divided by 56m for 2014.

for London it is £3.80 converted to euro is €5.15 operating costs 1.9 billion Km driven 502m

Didn't count depreciation for either but it wouldn't be any more favourable for London anyway as they TFL have stricter rules on fleet replacement than the NTA.

So it is valid to compare to London when following the tendering model but not valid when comparing costs, jaysus do you ever stick the goal posts in the ground or are you too busy moving them. Just in case you have noticed Dublin has massive congestion and one of the highest costs of living in the eurozone it is a valid comparison.

antoinolachtnai · 01-05-2015 2:39pm

But doesn't TfL owns few, if any buses and so they don't have depreciation on buses? As I understand it, they are owned and financed by the operators and this is factored into the operating fee. So to make a meaningful comparison you need to take in the depreciation. You can't just forget about it because it is inconvenient.

You are also leaving out the amortisation of capital grants when you leave out this figure. Amortisation is how the value of free buses is counted in the accounts.

I presume you are talking about TfL's figures from 2013/2014. If so, the relevant conversion rate is around 1.2, not 1.3. £3.80 is more like €4.56. This then leaves TfL cheaper than Dublin Bus, even without taking depreciation into account.

As you say, TfL has a higher standard for vehicles than NTA, even though their costs are lower. This makes Dublin Bus look even worse.

Costs of living in London are considerably higher than in Dublin (which is not in the eurozone). This online calculator reckons the difference at 42 percent (http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/dublin/london). This has been knocked out a bit by recent FX activity, but it is still a difference of 25 or 30 percent at least.

London is also a fairly congested city.

Jesus Wept · 01-05-2015 2:41pm

Arc_Light wrote: »

I've read about the DART Airport Express, the Luas lines to Lucan and Bray, I see they release 50 page PDFs about north Dublins transport options ...but nowhere can I find any simple explanation of how this bus plan that is causes drivers to loose their sh1t is supposed to work, and to be frank, the strike thread is terrible for someone who wants to understand it.
It seems to vary between a slagging match, what I call a peasant-off, and then little tiny bits of info about the plan leak out, like a suggestion I just read that the NTA barred all Irish companies from competing

So what's it going to be? It's hard to decide if you support the strike or not when ZERO info about the actual bloody plan is out there. Is it going to be like the Luas where the busses, stops, garages etc are owned by the NTA and it's just MANAGEMENT that's competed for? With pay rates and employment security the same under that stupid TUPE law? Does anyone know the actual plan? Not rumors now...I want FACTs.

Lovely.

end of the road · 01-05-2015 3:22pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The cost per vehicle km on BE and BD is very high by international standards. There is plenty of overall scope for reducing costs.

sorry, i don't buy any of it.

jaymcg91 · 01-05-2015 6:12pm

end of the road wrote: »

sorry, i don't buy any of it.

It's not about what you 'buy'. It's about the facts. Dublin Bus is a poor service poorly run by overpaid staff. Privatization would be a positive thing. Obviously the staff disagree. Asking Dublin Bus staff to give up their cushy number and outrageous wages by agreeing to partial privatization is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

It will happen, one way or the other.

No one (or group) should have the power to bring the city to a standstill like this.

end of the road · 01-05-2015 6:20pm

jaymcg91 wrote: »

It's not about what you 'buy'. It's about the facts. Dublin Bus is a poor service poorly run by overpaid staff. Privatization would be a positive thing. Obviously the staff disagree. Asking Dublin Bus staff to give up their cushy number and outrageous wages by agreeing to partial privatization is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

It will happen, one way or the other.
No one (or group) should have the power to bring the city to a standstill like this.

the staff aren't over payed. their wages aren't outrageous and they don't have a cushy number. they deserve the wage they have having to deal with certain members of the public who show contempt for them and abuse them for nothing and the rest. privatization wouldn't be a positive thing as the NTA is deciding everything down to a t . nor would it be a positive thing anyway. the city isn't being brought to a stand still, its just a bit more difficult to get around. i'm happy with the unions having the power they do, its necessary for the greater good of trying to keep the government in check.

pmasterson95 · 01-05-2015 6:32pm

end of the road wrote: »

the staff aren't over payed. their wages aren't outrageous and they don't have a cushy number. they deserve the wage they have having to deal with certain members of the public who show contempt for them and abuse them for nothing and the rest. privatization wouldn't be a positive thing as the NTA is deciding everything down to a t . nor would it be a positive thing anyway. the city isn't being brought to a stand still, its just a bit more difficult to get around. i'm happy with the unions having the power they do, its necessary for the greater good of trying to keep the government in check.

The greater good that inconveniences thousands of people who they then claim to be "protecting"

Dat logic :rolleyes:

Mrs OBumble · 01-05-2015 8:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

the staff aren't over payed. their wages aren't outrageous and they don't have a cushy number.

I doubt that Dublin Bus's drivers are overpaid: there are plenty of women and immigrants driving for the, evidence that the jobs aren't tightly held or valued.

Don't know about their management, office staff or depot staff, haven't see any evidence of them.

But BÉ jobs in provincial cities appear to be far more valued: few women, few immigrants working for them.

NB Of course there are exceptions. But these are good indicators of job attractiveness overall.

Dravokivich · 01-05-2015 8:54pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I doubt that Dublin Bus's drivers are overpaid: there are plenty of women and immigrants driving for the, evidence that the jobs aren't tightly held or valued.

Don't know about their management, office staff or depot staff, haven't see any evidence of them.

But BÉ jobs in provincial cities appear to be far more valued: few women, few immigrants working for them.

NB Of course there are exceptions. But these are good indicators of job attractiveness overall.

Im not sure why the presence of women would devalue a job with your commentary. But surely the presence of immagrants is going to be biased towards large population areas, which in turn would have a greater number of them.

Carawaystick · 04-05-2015 11:54pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Im not sure why the presence of women would devalue a job with your commentary. But surely the presence of immagrants is going to be biased towards large population areas, which in turn would have a greater number of them.

I was in a Dunnes Stores recently, for a few hours. All the no-managerial staff on tills and the floor were women. The only men were serving at meat counters.

The Dunnes unionised staff went on strike recently protesting against crap conditions and pay.

When the nta first floated about outsourcing the 33a route, I pointed out to them about the lack of integration of ticketing, and asked them if a transfer 90 would still work on the 33a to get to swords and allow onward travel to Dublin. The nta replied, saying they hadnt thought of the effects on passengers, and would take my comments on board. The nta cancelled the transfer 90 since....

dfx- · 05-05-2015 1:08am

dublindiehard wrote: »

The NTA is investing a lot
- LEAP
- RTPI
- Intergrated journey planner
- Mapping
- Ticket Mahines at Dublin Airport
- Transport information screens at key locations
- Wifi
- New Buses

Etc

A lot of that is fine and not intrusive - screens, mapping, ticket machines, the size of logos - safe to do from a distance. That's all good stuff from an office.

As soon as they start impacting on the actual delivery of that service - messing around with daily operations squandering €400,000 on low capacity buses and impacting on staff's wages, they 'hadn't thought of that' or 'that has to be worked out".

Because they're not an operator but they're trying to be by stealth.

Dravokivich · 05-05-2015 8:45am

Carawaystick wrote: »

I was in a Dunnes Stores recently, for a few hours. All the no-managerial staff on tills and the floor were women. The only men were serving at meat counters.

The Dunnes unionised staff went on strike recently protesting against crap conditions and pay.

You are making it out to be more than what it is, to have women employed somewhere. The crap conditions is mainly around only providing temporary contracts and a zero hours working week, with no commitment to roster their staff.

So what, does that mean, about devaluing the position facilitated by a woman? Because the blokes that work in all the other Dunnes Stores face the same issue.

What way is the Bus tendering plan meant to work?

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