Electronic/secret votes in dail

UDP · 07-08-2012 6:22pm #1

Just reading there that kenya is putting in buttons for electronic voting and my understanding is that the voting is secret.
Http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19163117?

It initially sounded like a good idea to me but then I was thinking those that the electorate would then lose visibility on what the politician's stand really is on a subject this less accountability. I do like the idea that they could vote with their conscience rather than just following what is popular.

What do you think?

cristoir · 07-08-2012 7:40pm

MPs/TDs should be voting with their conscience anyway regardless of if they are voting in secret. This country needs to deal with its whip system.

MadsL · 08-08-2012 12:26am

Voting records should always be published. However, I would like to see a system for mass petitioning by the citizens for the removal of the whip and a secret ballot for some votes - eg: ethical legislation issues.

Cookie_Monster · 08-08-2012 2:51am

cristoir wrote: »

MPs/TDs should be voting with their conscience .

oh god no. They should be voting what their constituants (or majority of) want, not thier own biased views.

jimmycrackcorm · 08-08-2012 3:03am

MadsL wrote: »

Voting records should always be published. However, I would like to see a system for mass petitioning by the citizens for the removal of the whip and a secret ballot for some votes - eg: ethical legislation issues.

Yes. Remove all political parties and let's have a system where people should elect on mings turf cutting and walaces pink n'blonde policies.

MadsL · 08-08-2012 5:04pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Yes. Remove all political parties and let's have a system where people should elect on mings turf cutting and walaces pink n'blonde policies.

Now that is exactly the opposite of what I said above if you would bother to read it. The reason why I would see that provision for the citizens to present a mass petition to remove the whip and hold a secret ballot would be issues that are political suicide. For example, legislation to deal with the X case - no political party wants to touch the issues, but legislation is desperately needed. Removal of the whip and a secret ballot allows the work of governance to be conducted without the issue being flung in their faces across the floor or at election time.

I envision a very careful use of such a provision not "removing all political parties" as your grotesque caricature of what I actually said suggests.

hatrickpatrick · 08-08-2012 5:32pm

Politicians are supposed to represent us, they should be voting as would reflect the wishes of their constituents. We need more accountability, not less.

Sand · 08-08-2012 6:29pm

Paradoxically, proper democratic representation requires that parliament votes are held in secret and that voting records are not kept. If voting records are kept lobbyists can target and pick off individual politicians (and they'll be vastly better funded than Joe Bloggs) and the whip system will be maintained. Transparency on how politicians are voting is disastrous for real democratic accountability.

Secret Dail votes is a key step to achieving real democratic accountability in Ireland. Which is why no Irish government will ever allow it. If they don't know how TDs are voting, they wont be able to intimidate TDs with the party whip.

Dubhlinner · 08-08-2012 6:51pm

Hard to know. backward ireland representing fine gael backbenchers would probably stop things like abortion legislation or even a vote on gay marriage.

not saying im against it.. just there are negatives to consider

Victor · 12-08-2012 6:06pm

Sand wrote: »

Paradoxically, proper democratic representation requires that parliament votes are held in secret and that voting records are not kept. If voting records are kept lobbyists can target and pick off individual politicians (and they'll be vastly better funded than Joe Bloggs) and the whip system will be maintained. Transparency on how politicians are voting is disastrous for real democratic accountability.

Secret Dail votes is a key step to achieving real democratic accountability in Ireland. Which is why no Irish government will ever allow it. If they don't know how TDs are voting, they wont be able to intimidate TDs with the party whip.

But surely, by not having voting records, corrupt politicians are enabled to vote how they like?

Sand · 14-08-2012 8:29pm

That's why its representative democracy. You're nominating someone to vote on your behalf. Hence you should understand and *generally* agree with political views. If you dont, dont elect them. If you dont trust them, or dont consider their views to be deeply felt, then dont elect them.

Lets say there are two groups involved in the political process. Individual Joe Bloggs voters, and highly organised, highly motivated, well funded single issue lobby and pressure groups. Joe Bloggs can deliver one vote, is generally pretty moderate ("Dont care" on most social issues like gay marriage for example) and is holding down a job, raising a family and rarely has the time or interest to relentlessly follow every Dail vote. Even if they do disagree with a particular vote, they take a wider view - they dont tend to turn on politicians over a single issue.

The pressure group on the other hand can deliver thousands of votes, and can influence tens of thousands more. It has an extreme view on a small subset of issues ( " Gay rights are an abomination against God" for example). It exists *only* to relentlessly follow every Dail vote and to track and influence political figures. They are only concerned with a politicians record on their particular policy area so they are very narrowminded. They have vastly better personal access to politicians.

Lets say there are two scenarios, Scenario A where both Joe Bloggs and the pressure groups can see how a politician has voted, and Scenario B where no one *knows* how a politician has voted.

In both Scenarios, Joe Bloggs and the pressure group have the same *access* to information, but its certain the pressure group will exploit the information available to them, whereas Joe Bloggs will probably not even know there is a Dail vote going on. If nobody know for sure how a politician voted, then the power of the pressure group to threaten, intimidate and bully inidividual politicians is greatly reduced. A politician can tell the pressure groups whatever they want to hear, whilst actually voting in a moderate, sensible fashion. Otherwise, democracy increasingly falls prey to extremist, polarising policies and the best funded extremist groups dominate and intimidate politicians.

Ask yourself who sets the US policy on Cuba - the vast majority of average Americans who dont care, or the tiny minority of fanatical Cuban Americans who care very much? Why do US presidential candidates travel to Israel to swear that they're willing to defend Israel to the last American life, that US interests run second to Israeli interests in their calculations? To impress the vast majority of average Americans who don't care, or the tiny minority of fanatical US-Israeli groups who care very much?

Close to home, why has it taken so long for Irish legislators to deal with the X case? Why is Enda Kenny afraid to express a view on gay marriage when the vast majority of Irish people either don't care or support it?

MadsL · 15-09-2012 7:13am

MadsL wrote: »

Voting records should always be published. However, I would like to see a system for mass petitioning by the citizens for the removal of the whip and a secret ballot for some votes - eg: ethical legislation issues.

Ahem...
http://www.thejournal.ie/public-petition-oireachtas-594866-Sep2012/

Any nominations for the first issue?

hatrickpatrick · 15-09-2012 2:09pm

They're supposed to be representing the people, aren't they?

We have too little control over our politicians once we've voted them in as it is. This would be disastrous.

RATM · 15-09-2012 6:01pm

I think votes in the Dail should be public. I love the American system whereby we know what way senators and congressmen have voted on each and every issue. When it comes to re-election time the electorate can simply look at their voting record and see how closely it corresponds with how they themselves would have voted.

I'd go one further and say that a TD should maintain a website where constituents could register to vote by verifying their identity and then in the weeks leading up to the policy issue the TD would outline to his constituents and pros and cons of each side in an unbiased document. Then any constituent who has an interest in the issue can vote on the website and the result of that would dictate how the TD should vote in the Dail.

Of course you couldn't do this on every issue, no one is going to vote for higher taxes for instance, but there are a lot of issues where you could. But our TD's enjoy their little power trip and regulary vote against the wishes of their constituents all under a veil of secrecy and the whip system so I won't be expecting any kind of real democracy anytime soon

Sand · 16-09-2012 2:56am

Do people who believe a public Dail voting record is a good thing agree that a public voting record is also a good thing? I.E. everyone ought to know how their friends, family and neighbors voted: so that they can confirm that they voted the right way?

If not, why not?

UDP · 16-09-2012 10:28am

Sand wrote: »

Do people who believe a public Dail voting record is a good thing agree that a public voting record is also a good thing? I.E. everyone ought to know how their friends, family and neighbors voted: so that they can confirm that they voted the right way?

If not, why not?

No, simply because they are not representing anyone but themselves so are not accountable to anyone else for their voting preference but then again I am split as to whether dail public voting is a good thing.

I think maybe it should be a power of the president to decide when an issue is controversial enough to warrant a secret ballot e.g. votes on abortion.

thebman · 16-09-2012 7:49pm

I don't believe secret votes in the dail are a good idea.

Politicians need to be held accountable come election time for their actions which people can't know if they don't know how they voted on key decisions in the dail.

Just because something is controversial, does not mean a politician shouldn't be professional enough to let his views be known on it. That our politicians aren't says a lot about the standard of politician we have in this country IMO.

Similarly political parties need to know what a particular candidate that might be a member of the party and so represent the party stands for so they know if they are willing to have that person in their party.

oppenheimer1 · 16-09-2012 8:50pm

Voting in the Dáil is already electronic, but not secret afaik. On major or contentious issues the Government can be forced to walk through the lobbies. This happened in the case of the bailout legislation.

hatrickpatrick · 16-09-2012 10:07pm

Sand wrote: »

Do people who believe a public Dail voting record is a good thing agree that a public voting record is also a good thing? I.E. everyone ought to know how their friends, family and neighbors voted: so that they can confirm that they voted the right way?

If not, why not?

How can you even compare the two?
I am not working for my friends or family in a public capacity. My TD is working for me, however, and if I can't monitor his or her performance what's the point of voting for them at all?

hatrickpatrick · 16-09-2012 10:09pm

UDP wrote: »

No, simply because they are not representing anyone but themselves so are not accountable to anyone else for their voting preference but then again I am split as to whether dail public voting is a good thing.

I think maybe it should be a power of the president to decide when an issue is controversial enough to warrant a secret ballot e.g. votes on abortion.

Why should an abortion vote be secret though? If you don't approve of it you shouldn't be forced to vote for someone who voted for it, and vice versa.
By electing politicians, we are implementing policy by proxy. Without knowing how they vote, we have little to no control whatsoever.

Manach · 16-09-2012 10:15pm

On one hand, Edmund Burke argued that the elected politician is ultimately responsible to himself on how he/she votes thus e-voting would allow this. On the other hand, it is the rare politician that pays any consignance to how the electorate opines on a matter - it is purely a matter of the party whip.

Sand · 17-09-2012 6:52pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How can you even compare the two?
I am not working for my friends or family in a public capacity. My TD is working for me, however, and if I can't monitor his or her performance what's the point of voting for them at all?

- Think about the reasons why secret balloting was introduced for voters. Why it was considered a good idea to stop anyone knowing how you voted.

- Your TD doesn't work for you. He/she works for the party whip. The party whip monitors his/her performance. Both the party whip and other vested interests groups will do a far better job of monitoring your TDs performance than you ever will.

The only way your TD will actually ever work for you is if you stop the party whip and the other vested interest groups from being able to monitor your TDs voting record.

thebman · 17-09-2012 10:56pm

Sand wrote: »

- Think about the reasons why secret balloting was introduced for voters. Why it was considered a good idea to stop anyone knowing how you voted.

- Your TD doesn't work for you. He/she works for the party whip. The party whip monitors his/her performance. Both the party whip and other vested interests groups will do a far better job of monitoring your TDs performance than you ever will.

The only way your TD will actually ever work for you is if you stop the party whip and the other vested interest groups from being able to monitor your TDs voting record.

He'll just act in his own interests then and tell everyone porkies including the whip.

hatrickpatrick · 17-09-2012 11:24pm

Sand wrote: »

- Think about the reasons why secret balloting was introduced for voters. Why it was considered a good idea to stop anyone knowing how you voted.

So as you couldn't be penalized for not voting the right way. That's different with politicians, who should be implementing the policies you elected them to implement.

- Your TD doesn't work for you. He/she works for the party whip. The party whip monitors his/her performance. Both the party whip and other vested interests groups will do a far better job of monitoring your TDs performance than you ever will.

This is why I generally vote independent, the whip system makes an absolute farce of the concept of representative democracy.

The only way your TD will actually ever work for you is if you stop the party whip and the other vested interest groups from being able to monitor your TDs voting record.

I'm all for abolishing the whip system and always have been. But if we allow politicians to vote in secret, how are we supposed to know who to vote for?

Take the abortion example above for example - if such a vote was a secret ballot and I wanted it to go in a particular direction, how do I know who to elect without knowing how he/she votes on the issue?

Sand · 18-09-2012 12:25am

I'm all for abolishing the whip system and always have been. But if we allow politicians to vote in secret, how are we supposed to know who to vote for?

- You cant abolish the party whip system without secret ballots. The party whip system is only enforceable because the party can check how TDs voted.

- Ask your TD to explain his political views on a position: if they're able to put forward some sort of logical and coherent view then you'll know if you agree with them or not. If they waffle and blather, you shouldn't vote for them in any case.

At the end of the day - do you really think your TD cares what way you cast your *single* vote, when he is more worried about being picked off by his party organisation or pilloried and briefed against by vested interests? You're giving immense power and influence to vested interests in exchange for practically no power at all. Its a *very* bad trade for the ordinary voter, as demonstrated by how appalling Irish government has been over the past 100 years or so.

Victor · 18-09-2012 12:42am

Sand wrote: »

- Think about the reasons why secret balloting was introduced for voters.

In some cases, this was done to exclude illiterate voters.

Your TD doesn't work for you. He/she works for the party whip. The party whip monitors his/her performance.

And whips are responsible to the party group.

Scofflaw · 18-09-2012 4:29pm

How many of you actually know how your TD voted? Or even where you would look to find out?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lantus · 20-09-2012 12:59pm

TD's vote in accordance with their party policy enforced by the party whip. There is no 'free thought'

There is virtually no rebellion against the whip because as votes are visible the party can eject TD's that do not conform. Hardly an incentive unless they are actively looking to end their careers and jobs.

The question is really do we need party politics? The answer is no. What we need is for technically minded people to start solving the problems of society. We need the very best people in government, not the very charming or self confident. A small group of independant politicians is all we require all working towards a common goal.

The issue of representation per population is simply rediculous. We should assess how many people are needed to accompolish the job, that is how many people we then need, not so many per thousand.

All people should vote on all representatives, the concept of county's is ludicrous. How do we know that the best or most relevant people will be living in certain areas? County's are over 800 years old. If they are so good then we should go back to the old system of kings that existed when they were created. No sane person would establish a system of government representation or local council service provision on a system of arbitary wavy lines that were set out over 800 years ago when none of the current problems or issues existed.

"We cannot expect to solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them" - Albert Einstein

Electronic/secret votes in dail

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