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Trans rights in Ireland

«1

Comments

  • #2
    say_who_now?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭say_who_now?


    Itzy wrote: »
    Just seen this on FB: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/proposed-legislation-to-give-legal-recognition-to-transgender-people-566008.html.

    They still have no intention of updating legislation so forced divorce is not an issue. Possibly an editorial error, but the referred to Vanessa Lacey as He. :mad:

    I read it four times and I still don't understand the term "forced divorce", or what is meant by it in this context.

    And as for referring to Ms. Lacey as 'he' just one sentence later after knowing her first name was Vanessa, that's not just an editorial oversight, that's a complete àrse hole knowingly trying to stir shìt!


  • #3
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    I would give them the opportunity to correct it before assuming malice,
    but......
    It wouldn't surprise me if it was just another "media" opportunity to try and wind transgender people up to bring attention to their brand. Roll on legal protection for transgender people.


  • #4
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    say_who_now? wrote: »
    I read it four times and I still don't understand the term "forced divorce", or what is meant by it in this context.

    People who wish to be recognised in their new gender, if married must get a divorce. Sadly we can't gain gender recognition and stay married. So in a way, we are forced into one box or the other.


  • #5
    say_who_now?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭say_who_now?


    Itzy wrote: »
    People who wish to be recognised in their new gender, if married must get a divorce. Sadly we can't gain gender recognition and stay married. So in a way, we are forced into one box or the other.


    Ahh right, makes sense now aswel why you mentioned that they won't update legislation, now I know you meant- marriage equality legislation. They should surely tie this IN with marriage equality legislation and then they couuld still achieve their objective of "protecting the constitution of marriage", a bloody laughable excuse in my opinion!


  • #6
    Canard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭Canard


    Wow. Forced divorce...it amazes me how much of a sh1t people give about others' private lives, so disgusting.


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  • #7
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    They must have fixed he to she

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #8
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Patchy~ wrote: »
    Wow. Forced divorce...it amazes me how much of a sh1t people give about others' private lives, so disgusting.

    It is not that politicians want this to happen. The issue is they have no choice because of the way in which our constitution is written and interpreted in law

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #9
    say_who_now?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭say_who_now?


    mango salsa wrote: »
    They must have fixed he to she

    I contacted them earlier to notify them of their error.
    mango salsa wrote: »
    It is not that politicians want this to happen. The issue is they have no choice because of the way in which our constitution is written and interpreted in law

    It's all very confusing!

    Will this then mean that they will have to look again at divorce law too? Just that according to current legislation, the couple would have to have been living apart for four years before getting a divorce.

    Will this mean that they will have to look again at marriage equality legislation to allow for now legally recognised transgendered persons to be married? I'm thinking will they consider an FTM transgendered person marrying a man as "same sex marriage" or will it be properly recognised as defined by the constitution of marriage?

    It'll be interesting to see what will come of this "chicken and egg" situation.


  • #10
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    say_who_now? wrote: »
    I contacted them earlier to notify them of their error.

    they corrected it good for you and good for them


  • #11
    say_who_now?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭say_who_now?


    Correspendence with breakingnews, personally identifiable information removed:



    Hi,


    Thanks for the heads-up on that. It was a sub-editing error on our side which occurred when we were transcribing the quote. It has now been corrected in our publication system and should change shortly on the live site.


    All the best,

    site ed


    On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 3:17 PM, BreakingNews.ie wrote:
    Name *
    Email * Select a Choice Editorial

    Comments: Re: Proposed legislation to give legal recognition to transgender people.


    In your article reporting on the legislation, you refer to Ms. Vanessa Lacey using the pronoun "he".


    I would appreciate you correcting this insenstive error immediately.


    Regards,






    --
    www.breakingnews.ie


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  • #12
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It's been a hugely important fortnight in Ireland for trans rights

    Gaelick and TENI highlighted shameful advertising

    http://www.teni.ie/news-post.aspx?contentid=647

    http://www.gaelick.com/2012/10/meteoric-mistake/29008/

    Lydia Foy marked 5 years since her case decision by meeting Nils Muiznek the Council of Europe Human Rights Commissioner

    http://www.flac.ie/news/2012/10/18/europe-rights-leader-greets-lydia-fo/

    He told the ILGA conference forced divorce unacceptable

    http://www.teni.ie/news-post.aspx?contentid=682

    Katherine Zappone more or less said the same

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1019/1224325457423.html

    Human Rights in Ireland did a blog carnival with 5 blog posts on human rights, depatholisation of trans identity, laws, human rights, forced divorce and families

    http://www.humanrights.ie/

    TEA (transgender education advocacy) organised a protest outside the Dail.

    http://www.demotix.com/news/1535265/rally-recognition-transgender-rights-dublin#media-1535205

    http://www.thejournal.ie/trans-rally-for-recognition-dublin-photos-643715-Oct2012/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #13
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    Do you know if E.Gilmore mentioned it* at all in his address this morning?

    *five years in contravention


  • #14
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shakti wrote: »
    Do you know if E.Gilmore mentioned it* at all in his address this morning?

    *five years in contravention

    Gilmores speech is here

    http://new.livestream.com/ilgaeuropedublin2012/events/1616242

    His speech wasn't really looking at Ireland. It was more of an international human rights speech

    http://www.thejournal.ie/eamon-gilmore-speech-transgender-rights-644205-Oct2012/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #15
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    thanks, in your opinion what do you think is holding it up?


  • #16
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shakti wrote: »
    thanks, in your opinion what do you think is holding it up?

    Complexities arising from the fact that GRAG consulted but didn't listen.

    Complexities around marriage/forced divorce and the constitution.

    Joan Burton asked the Attorney general about a year ago to examine the issue of forced divorce and the constitution. I think the AG reported back about 2/3 months ago.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #17
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    At this rate I'll be lucky to get the right gender on my death certificate


  • #18
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shakti wrote: »
    At this rate I'll be lucky to get the right gender on my death certificate

    Social policy legislation takes ages in Ireland; divorce, condoms, gay male sex.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #19
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    As happy as I am to hear the minister talk of equality, I have read that the broad reaction to this is one of.... how does the minister intend to raise the issue of discrimination with other states when his government and previous governments have consistently discriminated and discriminate against LGBT people. For instance how is he going to lecture any state on trangender discrimination when his government won't legally recognise the existence of transgender people in Ireland and have ignored the court's ruling for years. Ireland by it's ignorance of the court's ruling have weakened that court and it's intention for justice and positive change has suffered because of it. When the court makes rulings in the future will member states simply say to themselves "Ireland ignored you so shall we" maybe they'll call it 'the paddy precedent',


  • #20
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shakti wrote: »
    As happy as I am to hear the minister talk of equality, I have read that the broad reaction to this is one of.... how does the minister intend to raise the issue of discrimination with other states when his government and previous governments have consistently discriminated and discriminate against LGBT people. For instance how is he going to lecture any state on trangender discrimination when his government won't legally recognise the existence of transgender people in Ireland and have ignored the court's ruling for years. Ireland by it's ignorance of the court's ruling have weakened that court and it's intention for justice and positive change has suffered because of it. When the court makes rulings in the future will member states simply say to themselves "Ireland ignored you so shall we" maybe they'll call it 'the paddy precedent',

    I accept the points you're making. Firstly it's important to look at what has happened rather than say the state has ignored the court.

    1. The FF/Green government initiated an appeal
    2. After much pressure they dropped the appeal
    3. Minister Eamon O'Cuiv set up an advisory group to reccomend how to legislate
    4. Joan Burton took over as minister and published this report
    5. 2 Trans Delegates at the Labour Party Conference powerfully bought forward a motion calling on Joan Burton to legislate in line with international best practice on human rights
    6. Joan Burton addressed the TGEU conference and did promise to bring forward legislation


    So I accept that Irelands continuing lack of legislation is shameful but not that the court judgement is being ignored. Just one more thing. The judgement was in Irelands high court - not in the European Court of Human Rights

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #21
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I accept the points you're making. Firstly it's important to look at what has happened rather than say the state has ignored the court.....

    thanks mango, your spot on as usual


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  • #22
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The Council of Europe Commissioner on Human Rights wrote to Joan Burton

    https://wcd.coe.int/com.instranet.InstraServlet?command=com.instranet.CmdBlobGet&InstranetImage=2196517&SecMode=1&DocId=1960456&Usage=2

    She replied

    https://wcd.coe.int/com.instranet.InstraServlet?command=com.instranet.CmdBlobGet&InstranetImage=2196532&SecMode=1&DocId=1960474&Usage=2

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #23
    Reventon93
    Registered Users Posts: 5,315 ✭✭✭Reventon93


    mango salsa wrote: »
    The Council of Europe Commissioner on Human Rights wrote to Joan Burton

    https://wcd.coe.int/com.instranet.InstraServlet?command=com.instranet.CmdBlobGet&InstranetImage=2196517&SecMode=1&DocId=1960456&Usage=2

    She replied

    https://wcd.coe.int/com.instranet.InstraServlet?command=com.instranet.CmdBlobGet&InstranetImage=2196532&SecMode=1&DocId=1960474&Usage=2

    I've been wondering when there was going to be some movement on this issue, so that you very much for the update Mango. I think what's good about both letters is that they focus on what would be best for us as a minority to progress.

    It is also a very good thing to hear from people outside of our community that they want to help us the best way they can, and I definitely think that not having surgery as a requirement, and not forcing divorces will definitely help our recognition.

    I do however think that like many things about our legal system, this is something that is long overdue, and I hope that no one has to wait long for anything to be passed into law!


  • #24
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/i-do-not-have-to-prove-that-i-am-trans-enough-for-anyone/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #25
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Lydia Foy to sue because of delays in case

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0227/1224330566731.html

    Johnathan O'Brien - Sinn Fein to introduce bill on employment equality for trans people

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/1913/b1913d.pdf

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #26
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    TRANS PEOPLE AND human rights allies are being called on to take part in a campaign to urge the government to speed up bringing in gender recognition legislation.

    The call comes from TENI following a further delay in the progress of Gender Recognition legislation. In the latest government legislation programme, the expected publication date for Ireland’s Bill for Gender Recognition has been moved back to 2014. The heads of bill have not yet been approved by Government
    http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-recognition-transsexual-890557-Apr2013/

    TENI page giving details on how to take action (for trans people and allies) here; http://www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contentid=812

    I find this a bit disappointing and frustrating tbh, it's such a simple little thing which can make life so much easier for people and it just gets swept under the carpet despite international intervention and general human decency.


  • #27
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    wonderfulname wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-recognition-transsexual-890557-Apr2013/

    TENI page giving details on how to take action (for trans people and allies) here; http://www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contentid=812

    I find this a bit disappointing and frustrating tbh, it's such a simple little thing which can make life so much easier for people and it just gets swept under the carpet despite international intervention and general human decency.

    I agree the delays are frustrating and unacceptable. It's not simple though. It requires detailed legislation. The attorney generals office has been looking at the issue for a long time. A year or two maybe.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #28
    Reventon93
    Registered Users Posts: 5,315 ✭✭✭Reventon93


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I agree the delays are frustrating and unacceptable. It's not simple though. It requires detailed legislation. The attorney generals office has been looking at the issue for a long time. A year or two maybe.

    Well i remember reading the letter that Minister Burton sent to Europe stating that she liked the precedents followed by Argentinian, and that she does not want there to be a need for SRS to change birth certs.

    So if they were to follow the Argentinian legislation it wouldn't be as difficult as first imagined.


  • #29
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Reventon93 wrote: »
    Well i remember reading the letter that Minister Burton sent to Europe stating that she liked the precedents followed by Argentinian, and that she does not want there to be a need for SRS to change birth certs.

    So if they were to follow the Argentinian legislation it wouldn't be as difficult as first imagined.

    Again it is not that simple.

    Minister O'Cuiv set up the Gender Recognition Advisory Group (GRAG) with no trans representation.
    Minister Burton came into the job and awaited the GRAG report.
    The GRAG report recommended forced divorce and medical certification.
    The cabinet agreed to legislation based on the GRAG report
    Minister Burton requested the attorney general to look at the issue
    She (the AG) has been looking at the issue for a year or two

    There may be legal and constitutional difficulties which may mean forced divorce has to be in the Bill.

    So where we are now is that Dept of Social Protection is preparing legislation based on the deeply flawed GRAG report. Minister Burton may not be able to heavily change that legislation if there is strong resistance from other Cabinet members or indeed from government TDs. FG and/or Labour (FG more likely) TDs could insist on just implementation of GRAG - nothing more/nothing less. It is hard to say for certain.

    However I think if individuals lobbied their government TDs particularly and the Oireachtas committee on social protection members then this may make a difference. However I would strongly caution against lobbying without contacting TENI first.

    Chair: Joanna Tuffy
    Vice Chairman: Aodhán Ó Ríordáin
    Members
    James Bannon Fine Gael
    Ray Butler Fine Gael
    Joan Collins People Before Profit
    Clare Daly Independent
    Jim Daly Fine Gael
    Brendan Griffin Fine Gael
    Derek Keating Fine Gael
    Charlie McConalogue Fianna Fáil
    Nicky McFadden Fine Gael
    Jonathan O Brien Sinn Fein
    Willie O'Dea Fianna Fáil
    Aengus Ó Snodaigh Sinn Féin
    Brendan Ryan Labour Party

    Senators:
    Jim D’Arcy Fine Gael
    Fidelma Healy Eames Fine Gael
    Marie Moloney Labour Party
    Mary Moran Labour Party
    Averil Power Fianna Fáil
    Diarmuid Wilson Fianna Fáil

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #30
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Excellent letter from TGEU

    http://www.tgeu.org/sites/default/files/2013-04-30_L_TGEU_to_Burton.pdf

    and support from Trade Unions

    http://www.ictu.ie/equality/2013/05/03/lgbt-news/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #31
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Sinn Fein have published a private members bill for Gender Recognition.



    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=23558&&CatID=59

    It is unlikely to be supported by the government but it is a very important step.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #32
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Great article by Sara Philips of TENI

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sara-r-phillips/ireland-transgender-rights_b_3412713.html

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #33
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Senator Zappone introduced another bill today

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/senator-zappone-publishes-gender-recognition-bill-1.1450385

    http://www.teni.ie/news-post.aspx?contentid=863

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #34
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Government has published heads of bill

    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Gender-Recognition-Bill-2013.aspx

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #35
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Great performance from Vanessa and Sam this morning

    http://www.tv3.ie/ireland_am_video.php?locID=1.65.74&video=68157

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #36
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Good article

    http://humanrights.ie/civil-liberties/guest-post-where-are-the-young-people-in-irelands-proposed-gender-identity-recognition-law/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #37
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    UPDATES FROM TENI AND BELONG TO

    From TENI
    http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=20394040945a32c736eefb556&id=6afe38cace&e=6e4a8f544b
    The Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Social Protection will be reviewing the Government's draft Heads of Bill for Gender Recognition. The Committee has invited groups and individuals to give presentations on the 23rd and 24th October.

    This is a critical moment for trans rights in Ireland. The Committee will make recommendations to the Department of Social Protection which will draft the legislation that will eventually be introduced into the Dáil for debate.

    TENI have been invited to appear before the Committee on Wednesday 23rd October at 1pm. We will be calling on the Government to immediately enact inclusive and rights-based gender recognition legislation.

    In August, the Committee invited submissions from organisations and individuals. TENI assisted many of our allies with their submissions in an effort to ensure that there was consensus in advocating for inclusive gender recognition legislation. TENI's own submission to the Committee can be found here.

    The Committee meetings will be conducted in public session and streamed live on the Oireachtas website which can be accessed here.
    http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=fee22bff14bbd4880caafdd38&id=b1bded7aa2&e=aade324217

    From BelongTo
    Ombudsman for Children advises Government: Gender Recognition Bill should make provision for children and young people.
    Monday 14, 2013
    Ahead of Oireachtas hearings on the General Scheme of the Gender Recognition Bill, Ombudsman for Children Emily Logan advises the Minister for Social Protection that:

    "In the view of this Office, maintaining an absolute exclusion on young people or their parents seeking a Gender Recognition Certificate is a disproportionate interference with young people’s right to gender recognition."

    In-line with BeLonG To's own submission on the Bill the Ombudsman recommends:

    The Gender Recognition Bill should make provision for children and young people by removing the criterion relating to minimum age in Head 5 of the General Scheme that prevents them being able to obtain legal recognition of their preferred gender.
    Parents or guardians should be enabled to make an application for a Gender Recognition Certificate on behalf of their children.
    In the interests of consistency between the Gender Recognition Bill and the Non- Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, young people who have reached the age of 16 should be enabled to apply for legal recognition of their preferred gender on their own initiative.
    Welcoming the the Ombudsman for Children's advice, Michael Barron from BeLonG To said:

    "It is hugely significant that the Ombudsman for Children is advising the government that access to the gender recognition is in the best interest of children and young people, and that the blanket exclusion of under 18's from the present general scheme of the Bill is a disproportionate interference in the lives of young people and their families. Emily Logan, the Ombudsman for Children and her office, are the country's foremost authority on what is best and safest for children and young people and her advice and recommendations, which are in-line with BeLonG To's submission on the Gender Recognition Bill, is a huge boost to all our work to ensure that Trans* young people are properly recognised and cared for in Ireland"

    BeLonG To Youth Services will present on the General Scheme of the Gender Recognition Bill, to the joint Oireachtas Committee on Education & Social Protection next Wednesday 23rd of October at 1pm in Committee Room 3 of Leinster House, this presentation can be watched online here:

    Read the full text of the Advice of the Ombudsman for Children on the General Scheme of the Gender Recognition Bill here:

    Read the full text of BeLonG To Youth Services' submission to the joint Oireachtas Committee on Education & Social Protection here:

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #38
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The Irish Parliament has published the report on Gender Recognition Legislation. Next step is the actual legislation
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/mediazone/pressreleases/name-20024-en.html

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #39
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    It's encouraging how the bad points of the legislation were so challenged. I don't think there will be much success from those challenges but the fact so many of the TDs and Senators kept raising them gives hope.

    Also, one of my local TDs was on that group, I think I'll be sending him an e-mail tomorrow.


  • #40
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    It's encouraging how the bad points of the legislation were so challenged. I don't think there will be much success from those challenges but the fact so many of the TDs and Senators kept raising them gives hope.

    Also, one of my local TDs was on that group, I think I'll be sending him an e-mail tomorrow.
    TENI did an amazing job in successfully influencing this report and the Committee. I disagree with you that there won't be successes from the challenges that were raised.

    This is a massive difference to the grag report and will have a huge input and influence into the legislation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #41
    Lou.m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,532 ✭✭✭Lou.m


    say_who_now? wrote: »
    I read it four times and I still don't understand the term "forced divorce", or what is meant by it in this context.

    And as for referring to Ms. Lacey as 'he' just one sentence later after knowing her first name was Vanessa, that's not just an editorial oversight, that's a complete àrse hole knowingly trying to stir shìt!

    I think it's basically that if a married transgendered person wishes to be legally recognized as their transgender rather than the gender assigned at birth then they must get a divorce or a 'forced divorce'. I think being married negates the states recognition of their transgender.

    So basically if your marriage was binary to your biological/assigned gender and you were living as your transgender / true gender then the gov would not recognize that person unless they obtained a divorce.

    It would put them in a terrible position of having to choose between the basic human right of having the state recognize you and the stability of their families.

    Would there be any positive affects in the event of a positive ref for recognition of same sex marriages in 2015? I think there were in the UK? I think in the UK these marriages were to have been recognized as same sex marriages.

    Sorry if I have confused people.


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  • #42
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    mango salsa wrote: »
    TENI did an amazing job in successfully influencing this report and the Committee. I disagree with you that there won't be successes from the challenges that were raised.

    This is a massive difference to the grag report and will have a huge input and influence into the legislation.

    Oh yeah. I mean there won't be much movement from this point. I think at best there will be some allowance for the 16-18 age group, but I doubt there will be any change on the legislation for married people. I think it's pretty clear how the bill will shape up at this point, especially if you read the statements from the cabinet representative (I dunno if she's in the cabinet though) on the committee in the minutes.

    Hopefully the trans related but not bill specific points will be addressed, such as access to health care and support, Dept. of Education policy, etc. And from a personal perspective Donal O'Shea just today was telling me to get onto the HSE about getting endocrinology support for trans people in Cork.


  • #43
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    AIB fined 5 grand for not changing a bank account name


    www.thejournal.ie/equality-tribunal-transgender-allied-irish-bank-aib-1268680-Jan2014/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #44
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    So will people have to be castrated and sterilised in order to obtain said recognition cert.? serious question.


  • #45
    running the roads
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 56 ✭✭running the roads


    srs won't be required I think


  • #46
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    From what I've read there's no explicit call for SRS before the cert is issued. In fact there might not even be a need for medical transition (i.e. HRT.) The criteria is whether someone is going to live a permanent role in their preferred/acquired gender. That at its most basic could be as basic as presentation based. The issue is that you need a "primary physician" to issue supporting documentation that you have done that or are in the process of doing so. Someone who isn't medically transitioning might not have a relationship with such a doctor. Although I believe the legislation will allow for a psychologist to do so, so again it might not need an endocrinologist or GP to do so but a gender therapist could be ok.

    Despite all the problems with not having legislation, I think some things have become a lot easier and more liberal in the legislation being so delayed.


  • #47
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shakti wrote: »
    So will people have to be castrated and sterilised in order to obtain said recognition cert.? serious question.

    No

    Even GRAG said no to that!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #48
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Lyaiera wrote: »

    Despite all the problems with not having legislation, I think some things have become a lot easier and more liberal in the legislation being so delayed.
    Agreeed. While the delays have been horrible and probably even personally distressing to Dr Foy it has been of benefit to those who have been lobbying on this.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #49
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Some good analysis in AI report

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR01/001/2014/en/13af83a1-85f5-476f-9fe9-b931f2b2a9f3/eur010012014en.pdf

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/western-europe

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #50
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The gender recognition bill goes before the Seanad today.

    My friend Sam wrote this piece explaing the problems with it

    http://www.universityobserver.ie/2015/01/20/ucd-lgbtq-outreach-according-to-my-state-i-dont-exist/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #51
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Love this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK00GSTYhSQ

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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