|!| Third Level Fees

Shinji · 04-12-2002 8:31pm

That's the way it operates in Britain, not in Ireland.

Sorry, yes - I shold have made clear that I was talking about student loans in the context of ones that don't suck ar$e here. I do agree that the Irish system of student loans is rubbish and ought to be modified to match the British system.

so anything paid by the government is "spending other peoples money" so we should feel ashamed a regretful when we have to rely on the structures and institutions set up by society

What Corinthian said. There's nothing shameful about relying on government handouts when you have no other choice. However, treating them as a lazy alternative to doing things for yourself does indeed make you into a snivelling little parasite.

bonkey · 04-12-2002 10:10pm

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
so anything paid by the government is "spending other peoples money" so we should feel ashamed a regretful when we have to rely on the structures and institutions set up by society

Each time I re-read this post, and look back over the thread, I keep understanding what you're saying as :

"How dare the government not want to keep the structure I want which makes my future college career as easy as possible, and how dare anyone on this board suggest that it should be otherwise."

Maybe I'm wrong, but in any case, you are hardly in a position to be objective about it, and should at least admit as much.

jc

Von · 04-12-2002 10:31pm

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
The fact is I am a very able student expecting about 450 points in the leaving cert yet may not go to college or might have to take a loan to do so. due to a fee reimposed without warning. thanx bertie

Why don't you go off and work and travel for a year or two before taking that thrilling carlow rtc business studies course or something? Stop whinging.

rien_du_tout · 04-12-2002 10:51pm

hmmmmmmm, ok, Bonkey, next time I need a post mainly of you translating my english into english I'll tell ya.

I dont want to keep the present no fees structure just for myself. As a socialist if I felt it would be benifitial I would agree with it despite my own present circumstances. I'm not that short sighted.

I have stated reasons why I dont want fees reintroduced previously. I'm not just raving about how it'll affect me.

I dont believe people deserve to live on the edge of poverty and be told, "ah well you have enough. that's all you deserve". and I would agree that taking handouts when they arent needed is wrong but I would probably disagree with most people here (since I dont hear a murmer of socialism) where that line is drawn.

Von, thanx for the advice. Implying that I wont go to a university and the sarcastic use of "thrilling" isnt very nice. If you're working I hope income tax has been raised and put to good use both at your expense and benefit:)

Von · 04-12-2002 11:17pm

"I paid no attention whatsoever to books or study and regarded lectures as a joke which, in fact, they were if you discern anything funny in mawkish, obtuse mumblings on subjects any intelligent person could master single-handed in a few months. The exams I found childish and in fact the whole University concept I found to be a sham. The only result my father got for his money was the certainty that his son had laid faultlessly the foundation of a system of heavy drinking and could always be relied upon to make a break of at least 25 even with a bad cue. I sincerely believe that if University education were universally available and availed of, the country would collapse in one generation. " Flann O'Brien

The Corinthian · 05-12-2002 1:16am

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
I would probably disagree with most people here (since I dont hear a murmer of socialism) where that line is drawn.

Hmmm... we don't agree, because we're evil Fascists then...

You'll do well in college politics.

mrangry · 05-12-2002 3:15am

I read an interesting article in the Trinity record recently regarding third level fees and Minister Demspey.In the article he said that Bertie was not against reintroducing fees,he also went on to say that Mary Harney wasnt against the idea,she just stated that it wasnt in the programme for government.

In light of Mary Harneys recent statements,plus the PD campaign, there seems to be a bit of light between the FF postion and the PDs.

I would be very suprised to see them reintroduced during this government.

poobags · 06-12-2002 1:01pm

I think the re-intoduction of fees is inevitable and definitley worthwhile.

AS it stands college is a total fallacy. People are paying tax to the government so fucers can skip lectures and go to the bar.
I'm not against having fun but do it with your own money not hardearned taxpayer's.
If people had fees to pay then maybe we would be more careful with our money and put more time to learning.

People with low income will not be affected in the slightest, they will always have free education.

The fact is there are people LIVING in the STREETS while little rich kids saunter in and out of college like its no-one business,nOt caring about turning up.
Only there because they have been socailised into thinking that college is the only way forward in life. Taking up vaccincies that could be well filled up by someone who really deserves to be there.
Maybe if people had to pay they would be more choosy about where they are going. They will not go to college just for the sake of.
I mean look at the monkeys we have running the USI. Its a brilliant example of the inadequacy of higher education in Ireland.
Using a campaign of pies and flour to bring down the evil government. Well didn't Mr. Guevara, our hero, take down the corrupted Cubans with pies.
It sounds like lots of fun and will probalby make a great piece in the college paper but lets be serious. This has massive implications and the USI are treating it as some sort of joke.

BRING BACK FEES

Sand · 06-12-2002 8:54pm

I agree with bringing back fees for non useful degrees such as art courses and the "ologies" which In my experience are filled with the greatest bunch of wasters - not surprising they have so much free time on their hands to protest the opening of a packet of crips.

Economically useful courses, that provide skills and a grounding in economically productive fields shouldnt be charged for, or at least should be at greatly reduced charges as they increase Irelands chances of investment.

If someone wants to do a degree for the sake of uni social life I dont see why the Irish taxpayer has a responsibility to pay for it.

Graduates are for the most part better paid, which means they pay more taxes and in the long run, pay more taxes than they would have had they not gone to college. That offsets the cost.

Whats the difference then with them taking out a loan and paying it off? Its assumed theyre paying off the Irish taxpayer, so why cant we know for certain theyre paying back the bank?

I dont know if anyones done studies on it but Id imagine your level of pay would also correlate to the type of degree you did, practical as opposed to arts degree.

rien_du_tout · 06-12-2002 9:19pm

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Hmmm... we don't agree, because we're evil Fascists then...

Isnt it a delight when people yet again interpret what I say for all around.

I think I want a go now........ so you're saying anyone who's not a socialist is a fascist?? More fascists in the world than I thought then!

Why are so people obsessed with money. Sand says that only "economically" useful courses should be free. But you have to think about what society you want. Do you feel "pure" education is important at all? Sould we scrap anything uneconomically helpfull in earlier stages of education due to the fact they dont have a function, or so you may think, that's why I'm asking the questions.

Scrap free fees on arts courses. Dont you think this would effect the secondary school teacher intake?

seán

Cork · 06-12-2002 10:09pm

I agree with bringing back fees for non useful degrees such as art courses and the "ologies" which In my experience are filled with the greatest bunch of wasters - not surprising they have so much free time on their hands to protest the opening of a packet of crips.

Well in the 90s - RTCS had non means tested ESF grants.

These courses were very practical and jobs orientated.

I think funding non relevant courses by the Irish tax payer is a waste of tax monies.

bonkey · 07-12-2002 10:35am

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
But you have to think about what society you want.

Certainly.

Then you have to think about the society you can afford, which involves making compromises.

We all want (I assume) to live in a society with no unemployment, no crime, low taxes, a high standard of living, fully state-sponsored education, etc. etc. etc.

Unfortunately, when we return to the real world, we realise that we have none of these things, and that ultimately, we have to pick and choose.

Free higher education is one of the first things which can be removed for the simple reason that there are a myriad of other ways of having it funded. Sure, most of these put the onus back on the individual, and may put them in debt, but the simple fact is that the "borrow to study" model has not conclusively failed anywhere that I am aware of, and no-one has shown that it has on this thread either.

Yes, it may be unappealing to you to finish college owing the bank thousands, but so what? If that puts you off study, then we can also conclude that you will never own a car or a house, as you wont be able to handle being in debt to a significant amount then either.

The vast majority of adults spend their lives in debt. Cars, mortages, kids, holidays, home improvements, computers, whatever. They all manage it.

When you look at the figures involved, your uni degree may mean waiting a year or two to buy your house, or perhaps not buying a car until your a few years older, or maybe just living a more frugal lifestyle for a number of years.

I find it hard to countenance this being a problem. I have yet to hear one reason why it is a problem other than the "but I dont waaaaant to pay" whining. I dont want to pay taxes, but I have no choice. This is life. Cope.

Scrap free fees on arts courses. Dont you think this would effect the secondary school teacher intake?

I half-agree with Sand, but at the same time find it impossible to draw a line. There are many jobs where just the "status symbol" of having a degree is what is required, regardless of the degree itslf.

When I joined AIB (my first post-uni job) via the graduate recruitment program, we had people on it who had never done any computer programming, but who had a degree or a masters in this, that or the other, and who passed the aptitude test. Why was a uni degree needed? Beats me - it was the aptitude test results which really mattered.

So, for this job, an "-ology" or arts degree was just fine. And I'm pretty sure its not the only one. How many media people have risen through the ranks from having done arts degrees. Again - you can say "but that was before we had media degrees", but the point is that these people can and do gain benefit from what are apparently just arty-farty degrees.

For this reason, I feel a line is impossible to draw fairly, and a blanket policy should be used instead. If not a blanket policy, then perhaps a statistics-based average-employment-per-degree-within-3-years or something, but I doubt we could actually gather those figures accurately. I'm pretty sure Sand and I bashed this out on a thread last year sometime, so I'm not getting into another pantomime disagreement over it.

DiscoStu · 07-12-2002 11:01am

What about the borderline people who are, according to the government "able" but in reality struggle to pay for college with free fees let alone having to pay €5000-€6000 a year. What about those who are nearly finished their degree but if free fees are taken they are never able to get what they spent upwards of 4 years studying for?

daveirl · 07-12-2002 12:36pm

This post has been deleted.

The Corinthian · 10-12-2002 10:27am

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
Isnt it a delight when people yet again interpret what I say for all around.

Indeed. It’s called a rebuttal. You get them in these discussion-type things.

I think I want a go now........ so you're saying anyone who's not a socialist is a fascist?? More fascists in the world than I thought then!

You missed the irony. You’re not refuting many of the arguments against your standpoint and are beginning to simply revert to stereotypical platitudes. Ultimately this leads judging others not upon what they do or say, but upon political labels - agree or disagree with a stance and you unwittingly subscribe yourself a label. It’s a paradigm common to universities and other environments that still believe in bipolar politics.

Why are so people obsessed with money.

Because many of us have to work long and hard just to watch much of the money that we earn get requisitioned to fund brats who work neither long nor hard.

Villain · 10-12-2002 12:27pm

Well I've only come in on this discussion now, so maybe my thoughts have been expressed already.

I am currently a 3rd year student in Carlow I.T. where the Minister recently visted, he met with our Student President and said that if fees were re-introdyced the cut off for earnings would be around €75,000.

He aslo said that he would use the money generated by the fees to increase the grant which he agreed was too low.

Now I think that would be fair, people from poor backrounds get about €60 a week as a grant accomadation alone can cost more than that, so people who come from very wealthy families should pay fees and the money be pumped back into the grant.

This is all great in logic but its usually the middle class that lose out.

Maybe just maybe for once the Minister is tackling the issue of the poor been deprived the right to education.

rien_du_tout · 10-12-2002 10:11pm

Originally posted by The Corinthian
You missed the irony.

Couldnt I say the same thing about you?

Ultimately this leads judging others not upon what they do or say, but upon political labels - agree or disagree with a stance and you unwittingly subscribe yourself a label.

Because many of us have to work long and hard just to watch much of the money that we earn get requisitioned to fund brats who work neither long nor hard.

So you think its wrong to put political labels on people while placing a very general comment on the attitude of students. And from what Irish1 said you'd still be paying the same amount of money to those "no good" students.
The fees would just be topping up the grant. I would agree with this as a fair enough system. There are those that will get caught inbetween but if it is something that is planned for from early childhood it is less of a financial worry/burden. I still think that if fees were introduced advanced warning of at least a year would be needed for those stuck inbetween free and fee paying.

seán

Jimi-Spandex · 12-12-2002 1:36pm

While being anti-reintroduction myself, I find it quite amusing that a socialist opposes the truly socialist policy here, fees will more than likely lead to a greater equality in the type of student who goes to college and will help those from lower income situations get a 3rd level education.

It has been shown that there are less of these students, whom the policy was meant to help, going to college now than in 1997. It could be said that this shows that it hasn't helped, but there are other reasons for this.

On the point that college is free: Here's my bill at the moment
(I go to college in Dublin, I live in Limerick. I do this because there is no BCL available in UL)

These are rough estimations, assuming I didn't smoke(Dirty cheap roleys) or drink(Dirty cheap Dutch Gold)

Weekly(*24)
Return Bus: €17 (this is going up)
Rent: €105
Food: €40
Total Minimum: €162 pw, €3888 per year

Yearly
Registration: ~€700
Books: €635
Stationary + Photocopying: €100
Total:€1435

Okay, lets say I support myself, add in another €4000 to that, how can I really earn €9323 in a college year? I cant. If I want to be a barrister and have to do 7 years at Kings Inn on **** all money, and begin repayments on a €16000 loan within six months of me starting, this at a time when I will be fighting rats for scraps of cheese, how do I do that, cover one loan with another? This is not a way to deal with the situation.

i do agree with the point that there are a load of useless arts and ology students floating around leeching on the system, there for a social life and no more. The problem arises in trying to predict who will be useful to society in the future? There are 1st yr law students in UCD lazier that some 1st yr arts students I know, there is no real way to judge it.

The only way to reduce these kind of nobs is to reduce places at college, a move which would be as unpopular as fees.

And my reason for opposing fees, wholely self centered, but I mean in fairness, if I don't look after my own needs, who will?

and yes USI is a joke, its just not as ridiculous as UCDSU.

bonkey · 12-12-2002 7:40pm

Originally posted by Jimi-Spandex
Okay, lets say I support myself, add in another €4000 to that, how can I really earn €9323 in a college year? I cant. If I want to be a barrister and have to do 7 years at Kings Inn on **** all money, and begin repayments on a €16000 loan within six months of me starting, this at a time when I will be fighting rats for scraps of cheese, how do I do that, cover one loan with another? This is not a way to deal with the situation.

What has any of this to do with fees?

None of the costs you listed were fees - they were everything else.

Your conclusion is essentially that it is impossible to fund a university degree, which is patently false - it is done by countless people every year in Ireland and abroad, from all walks of life.

What one can say is that (assuming your figures bear some relevance to reality) university fees are, in effect, a rather small percentage of the entire cost of your college education, and there will therefore be a relatively small number of people who can manage to scrape that almost-10-grand a year together for however many years, but who wont be able to add the fees on top of that.

Ultimately, the reintroduction of fees will be unpopular because the public never like being asked to pay more for something - and like being asked to pay for something that was previously free even less. They wont remember how short a time free fees actually existed for - all the will remember is that last year it was free, this year it isnt, and that makes it time to complain. Once they stop complaining, I think there will be pretty much no-one dropping out of uni because of this.....people will discover that they can work around this one way or another.

jc

rien_du_tout · 13-12-2002 8:34pm

Originally posted by Jimi-Spandex
While being anti-reintroduction myself, I find it quite amusing that a socialist opposes the truly socialist policy here, fees will more than likely lead to a greater equality in the type of student who goes to college and will help those from lower income situations get a 3rd level education.

I have to say I've changed from my original opinion somewhat. My main worry is that fees would stop people from going to college. If a decent grant structure was set up due to the reimposition of fees then that'd be great. I still think that there should be advanced warning and fee fees for those below a certain level of income.

I'm also against large refuse tax. Which again could be taken as non-socialist in terms of being "anti tax" but socialism is so much more than that. But that's a different topic:)

rien_du_tout · 14-12-2002 11:40pm

looks like people are going to be paying "fees" whatever way u look at it. The president of UCD said the "student services charge" should be called what it really is. Maybe FF/PD's wont have to "re-introduce fees" and just hike that thing up. The colleges want it up as far as eur1,400, according to Irish Times. How would people feel about that? Is it going to have any impact on the grants?

daveirl · 15-12-2002 2:23pm

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DiscoStu · 15-12-2002 2:44pm

Originally posted by daveirl
The PDs don't want to reintroduce fees. http://no2fees.youngpds.org/

You're pretty sure aint ya. Would you care to put money on that?

The majority of my lecturers, my sisters, my friends and my aunts lecturers and now the head of ucd belives it. thing with lecturers is they generally know what they are talking about.

The poor will get it anyway, the rich can afford it anyway, its the paye worker who will be screwed up the ass again.

daveirl · 15-12-2002 3:03pm

This post has been deleted.

|!| Third Level Fees

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