What does it mean to be a 'Man' in modern society?

py2006 · 31-01-2012 3:21pm #1

What does it mean to be a man in modern society?

Over an interesting discussion down the local one evening. The subject came up. I am not the most articulate person in the world, so bear with me..

Is there a role for a ‘man’ in society today? It is a difficult question to answer. I suppose you would have to ask yourself, what does it mean to be a man? If the same question was asked 30 years ago it would be far easier to answer. Brandy and cigars and all that.

Are we descending into a gender neutral society? Is this a good thing? In relation to equal rights, then yes. But is it right to expect men to “feminise themselves” (not my words) in order to not fit into a stereotype and conform to modern society? It reminds me of an earlier thread about the toy shop which received numerous complaints for using signage to indicate where to find the toys commonly associated with each gender. Therefore, there is no role but a generic role for both sexes? A metrosexual perhaps? It would appear an emerging phenomenon of a politically correct society.

It was an interesting conversation and something I hadn’t given much thought to. The old stereotype is now considered sexist yet one female friend described modern men as “pathetic” and that most women prefer “real men”. It didn’t help that a definition wasn’t offered.

The conversation did progress to more serious matters were it was suggested that, for some, not having a defined role in society is a hugely difficult thing to deal with. They somehow feel lost or not part of society and that has contributed to the worrying high levels of suicide amongst men. An article in today's Times suggests that men are four times more likely to take their own lives. Sad.

According to this article, ‘many men believe the world is now dominated by women and that they have lost their role in society, fuelling feelings of depression and being undervalued.’

When the question was put to me, I didn’t know what to respond with. The article also refers to men being ‘handcuffed by political correctness’ and embarrassed about being a man. Not that this was the reason for my lack of a response.

What are your thoughts?

JimmyCrackCorn · 03-02-2012 10:27am

Is it not a man's normal instinct to keep if simple and avoid questions just like this.

A man is a man because he is. If its worth debating we will. A male version of feminism is just not of interest to me nor is it fitting pub talk which is the true test of any debate.

MassDeb8r · 03-02-2012 10:57am

It's not easy to be a man, I was one once and had to give it up.

Nervous Wreck · 03-02-2012 11:08am

I'm gonna be the jerk here and say that I'm sick to god damn death of people talking crap like this and thinking it makes them insightful. Not talking about you specifically, OP, but there is a huge shift towards this kind of crap lately and it's really quite perplexing. While these questions from a female point of view (i.e. "What does it mean to be a woman in the modern world?") could be quite topical (though still incredibly dull at this stage), flipping it to try apply it to males is redundant. It's also an incredibly vague question and putting the word 'man' in inverted commas is pretentious; it's not an existential concept that needs to be dissected. It's a sex. Discussion of gender roles is one thing but claiming that "us poor men have lost our place in society" is quite another.

Now. I'm all for the discussion of the dilution of the image of men by the media to conform to new fads (sparkly vampires, guyliner etc) and I'm defo ready to take the strong stance that this kind of dilution of our inherent manliness is bullshit (leave my balls alone, Hollywood!) but I'm definitely not willing to believe that men at large are more prone to depression because women change lightbulbs these days.

I'm gonna dissect the OP a little and ask my own questions. But again, not an attack on the post. Just my contribution.

py2006 wrote: »

What does it mean to be a man in modern society?

What did it ever mean? Has it really changed and would it really bother you if it has?

py2006 wrote: »

Is there a role for a ‘man’ in society today? It is a difficult question to answer.

As far as I can see, a man's roles are the same as they've always been. The difference is that women are also now allowed the right to those roles too. Doesn't dilute any man's role to let women be a part of it. Unless you're terribly insecure. IMO.

py2006 wrote: »

I suppose you would have to ask yourself, what does it mean to be a man? If the same question was asked 30 years ago it would be far easier to answer. Brandy and cigars and all that.

Really? That's what you're comfortable with labelling as what it means to be a man? Cos that shit wrecks my head, personally.

py2006 wrote: »

Are we descending into a gender neutral society? Is this a good thing? In relation to equal rights, then yes. But is it right to expect men to “feminise themselves” (not my words) in order to not fit into a stereotype and conform to modern society?

I'd rethink the word "descending," firstly. And secondly, who's asking men to 'feminise' themselves? Hollywood? Fashion trends? You're back to the 'brandy and cigars' thing there and that leads right back to my head being wrecked. It's all as fake as the thing that came before. In subscribing to one, you give credence to the value of the other.

py2006 wrote: »

It reminds me of an earlier thread about the toy shop which received numerous complaints for using signage to indicate where to find the toys commonly associated with each gender. Therefore, there is no role but a generic role for both sexes?

Uppity shite, in fairness. I don't believe in restricting kids to one thing or another but I'm not gonna get bent out of shape if my little girl wants to play with a Barbie.

py2006 wrote: »

A metrosexual perhaps? It would appear an emerging phenomenon of a politically correct society.

Isn't a metrosexual typically an effeminate male? That wouldn't really appear gender-neutral to me, nor does it really seem to be simply 'politically correct'. Just another symptom of fashion v society.

py2006 wrote: »

It was an interesting conversation and something I hadn’t given much thought to. The old stereotype is now considered sexist yet one female friend described modern men as “pathetic” and that most women prefer “real men”. It didn’t help that a definition wasn’t offered.

IME, the phrase "real men" has really just come down to "confident men" when you get to the bones of it.

py2006 wrote: »

The conversation did progress to more serious matters were it was suggested that, for some, not having a defined role in society is a hugely difficult thing to deal with. They somehow feel lost or not part of society and that has contributed to the worrying high levels of suicide amongst men.

I would argue that that's more about people not feeling they as individuals have a role, not so much about their gender as a whole.

py2006 wrote: »

An article in today's Times suggests that men are four times more likely to take their own lives. Sad.

According to this article, ‘many men believe the world is now dominated by women and that they have lost their role in society, fuelling feelings of depression and being undervalued.’

Generally wouldn't trust polls like that so much as it's quite easy to skew the results by asking leading questions. I'm sure some people do feel like that. But I would think that those kinds of feelings would speak to a deeper level of under-confidence rather than an arbitrary feeling of being undervalued next to women.

py2006 wrote: »

When the question was put to me, I didn’t know what to respond with. The article also refers to men being ‘handcuffed by political correctness’ and embarrassed about being a man.

Aren't we all.

Am I still typing!?

Maguined · 03-02-2012 11:27am

It only means what you decide for yourself what it means.

Yes there is pressure from all sorts of societal influences however the responsibility of an individual is to not bow down to the pressure of others and self determine their own lifestyle.

I don't have much sympathy for women that complain about the pressures of society due to all the beauty magazines and I similarly do not have much sympathy for men that complain they do not have a role in society as they are no longer the dominant bread winner.

irishh_bob · 03-02-2012 2:38pm

py2006 wrote: »

What does it mean to be a man in modern society?

Over an interesting discussion down the local one evening. The subject came up. I am not the most articulate person in the world, so bear with me..

Is there a role for a ‘man’ in society today? It is a difficult question to answer. I suppose you would have to ask yourself, what does it mean to be a man? If the same question was asked 30 years ago it would be far easier to answer. Brandy and cigars and all that.

Are we descending into a gender neutral society? Is this a good thing? In relation to equal rights, then yes. But is it right to expect men to “feminise themselves” (not my words) in order to not fit into a stereotype and conform to modern society? It reminds me of an earlier thread about the toy shop which received numerous complaints for using signage to indicate where to find the toys commonly associated with each gender. Therefore, there is no role but a generic role for both sexes? A metrosexual perhaps? It would appear an emerging phenomenon of a politically correct society.

It was an interesting conversation and something I hadn’t given much thought to. The old stereotype is now considered sexist yet one female friend described modern men as “pathetic” and that most women prefer “real men”. It didn’t help that a definition wasn’t offered.

The conversation did progress to more serious matters were it was suggested that, for some, not having a defined role in society is a hugely difficult thing to deal with. They somehow feel lost or not part of society and that has contributed to the worrying high levels of suicide amongst men. An article in today's Times suggests that men are four times more likely to take their own lives. Sad.

According to this article, ‘many men believe the world is now dominated by women and that they have lost their role in society, fuelling feelings of depression and being undervalued.’

When the question was put to me, I didn’t know what to respond with. The article also refers to men being ‘handcuffed by political correctness’ and embarrassed about being a man. Not that this was the reason for my lack of a response.

What are your thoughts?

the majority of women perfer a real traditional man , unfortunatley its the noisy and agressive minority of man hating feminists who men hear and thus men misinterprete what women want

py2006 · 03-02-2012 3:31pm

Thanks for the replies.

I must add that I never really defined manliness to myself. I don't regard myself as the "me man, you woman so cook and bend over" kinda guy. I'm just me.

So, it was a question I couldn't answer.

ntlbell · 03-02-2012 3:36pm

The answer is in a small piece of cinematic genius involving Arnie.

Boys have a penis, Girls have a vagina.

That is all.

sharper · 03-02-2012 5:35pm

I don't try to be a man, I just try to be me. I don't feel any need to behave as other people think I should do just because I have a penis.

the_syco · 05-02-2012 7:25pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

the majority of women perfer a real traditional man

The" traditional" being the woman-beating-alcoholic sort, or the earn-all-the-money-whilst-she-stays-at-home sort?

You gotta love these labels... :pac:

Gurgle · 05-02-2012 7:35pm

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
Robert Heinlein

Its not a comprehensive list, and isn't specific to the male of the species. It might not even answer the OP question.

But what the hell, its a great quote.

smallBiscuit · 05-02-2012 10:03pm

Gurgle wrote: »

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
Robert Heinlein

Its not a comprehensive list, and isn't specific to the male of the species. It might not even answer the OP question.

But what the hell, its a great quote.

That book was great as well

yawha · 06-02-2012 10:15pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I'm defo ready to take the strong stance that this kind of dilution of our inherent manliness is bullshit (leave my balls alone, Hollywood!)

Wtf is "inherent manliness"?

I fully support your post except for this.

Personally, I think that the idea of this concept of "manliness" or is damaging (even if it's just meant in jest, as it's extremely overdone, and I believe it just serves to perpetuate it). It needs to be let go of and we need to realise that we are all individuals, and all express ourselves in our own ways. There shouldn't be any sort of idea of a role we should be playing, and we should not have to face criticism or be looked down upon if we feel we want to express ourselves differently, perhaps more in line with what society considers "feminine".

Also, I'd hate to be one of those fake men.

irishh_bob · 07-02-2012 11:27am

yawha wrote: »

Wtf is "inherent manliness"?

I fully support your post except for this.

Personally, I think that the idea of this concept of "manliness" or is damaging (even if it's just meant in jest, as it's extremely overdone, and I believe it just serves to perpetuate it). It needs to be let go of and we need to realise that we are all individuals, and all express ourselves in our own ways. There shouldn't be any sort of idea of a role we should be playing, and we should not have to face criticism or be looked down upon if we feel we want to express ourselves differently, perhaps more in line with what society considers "feminine".

Also, I'd hate to be one of those fake men.

its all very well saying men should be allowed be what they want to be , the problem is that traditional definitions of maleness are attacked and demonised by our increasingly feminine society and our obvious feminine media , this causes young men to be unsure of themselves and the majority of women to be disapointed as its really only a minority of hardcore feminists idealogues who are leading most women by the nose

Feisar · 07-02-2012 3:09pm

Can someone define this mans man or at least throw out a couple of manly behaviors that would be typical of such.

I can't see how society has taken anything away from me. I'm not feeling the loss of any rights of self expression. So society has moved on to a point where women can look after themselves and aren't forced to become homemakers. It doesn't bother me in any way.
I'm still doing my own thing, meh.

Nervous Wreck · 07-02-2012 5:56pm

yawha wrote: »

Wtf is "inherent manliness"?

I fully support your post except for this.

Personally, I think that the idea of this concept of "manliness" or is damaging (even if it's just meant in jest, as it's extremely overdone, and I believe it just serves to perpetuate it). It needs to be let go of and we need to realise that we are all individuals, and all express ourselves in our own ways. There shouldn't be any sort of idea of a role we should be playing, and we should not have to face criticism or be looked down upon if we feel we want to express ourselves differently, perhaps more in line with what society considers "feminine".

Also, I'd hate to be one of those fake men.

I agree. What I meant by "inherent manliness" was simply that we are inherently men by virtue of our sex. The context, I suppose, of the above was taking a man and "feminising" him to appeal to a particular fashion trend at the moment (sparkly vampires etc

). I've no problem with effeminate men but I wouldn't want them to feel they have to 'man up' any more than I would want 'manly men' to feel like they should conform to said fad. Was kind of just a throwaway comment tbh.

The Corinthian · 08-02-2012 3:35pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

the majority of women perfer a real traditional man , unfortunatley its the noisy and agressive minority of man hating feminists who men hear and thus men misinterprete what women want

Actually the majority of women perfer a real traditional man, where it comes to the good stuff (i.e. chivalrous) but not where it comes to the bad stuff (i.e. chauvinistic), which unfortunately is a bit confusing for men, because the two are sides of the same coin.

Men are slowly also adopting the same cake and eat it mentality too, for example, how many couples do you see that are 50-50 on paying for everything, but somehow the woman ends up doing most of the housework?

This is because the last century redefined gender roles in a rather lopsided and chaotic manner and frankly the whole model has ended up a bit foobar, as a result. So until we can agree upon a new and equitable model to truly replace the old one (or return to it), I suspect we're going to cherry pick which mix or role we want to adopt as much as we can get away with.

So, what does it mean to be a 'Man' in modern society? Whatever you fancy and your girlfriend and/or wife will put up with.

yawha · 08-02-2012 7:27pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

traditional definitions of maleness are attacked and demonised by our increasingly feminine society and our obvious feminine media

Examples?

Personally, I've never actually seen or experienced anything like this, although I have read a fair amount of bizarre posts online about feminist conspiracies to keep men down, which I don't get at all...

Also, in my experience, the "majority of women" don't like any one type of man. They are all individuals and all have a diverse set of preferences in terms of attraction. I have never, ever felt that I need to act any one way to be attractive to women.

py2006 · 08-02-2012 8:04pm

Although there are exceptions to the rule, I believe deep down straight women are attracted to 'men' and straight men are attracted to 'women'.

In a modern society people often say what they think is the right thing to say but will often think a lot differently.

I don't believe a lot of women are attracted to what can be described as a "feminine" man and men in general wouldn't be attracted to a "masculine" woman. Again there are exceptions but I think deep down that really isn't far off the mark.

Peetrik · 08-02-2012 8:07pm

The ideals of being a 'Man' in present society are the same as they have always been. We have been civilised for far too short a time for anything to have seriously changed. In short...

The ability and will to defend and provide for your family/loved ones

yawha · 08-02-2012 8:57pm

py2006 wrote: »

Although there are exceptions to the rule, I believe deep down straight women are attracted to 'men' and straight men are attracted to 'women'.

In a modern society people often say what they think is the right thing to say but will often think a lot differently.

I don't believe a lot of women are attracted to what can be described as a "feminine" man and men in general wouldn't be attracted to a "masculine" woman. Again there are exceptions but I think deep down that really isn't far off the mark.

What do you mean by "feminine" and "masculine" here?

irishh_bob · 08-02-2012 10:26pm

py2006 wrote: »

Although there are exceptions to the rule, I believe deep down straight women are attracted to 'men' and straight men are attracted to 'women'.

In a modern society people often say what they think is the right thing to say but will often think a lot differently.

I don't believe a lot of women are attracted to what can be described as a "feminine" man and men in general wouldn't be attracted to a "masculine" woman. Again there are exceptions but I think deep down that really isn't far off the mark.

a self appointed liberal elite have taken it upon themselves to speak for all women and have decided what they want and need , theese idealogues despise tradition and so view masculinity in the traditional sense as an evil which must be wiped out

irishh_bob · 08-02-2012 10:27pm

yawha wrote: »

What do you mean by "feminine" and "masculine" here?

use your head , you know what the poster means

yawha · 08-02-2012 10:50pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

use your head , you know what the poster means

I don't really. People throw around the words "masculine" and "feminine" as if there's an obvious, implicit understanding of what's meant by the terms, but there's actually not, it's really, really grey, and different generations and people of different backgrounds have different interpretations of what is "masculine" and what is "feminine" besides biology.

Also, I feel that statements which speak for the preferences of "most" women or men are pure projection.

yawha · 08-02-2012 10:54pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

a self appointed liberal elite have taken it upon themselves to speak for all women and have decided what they want and need , theese idealogues despise tradition and so view masculinity in the traditional sense as an evil which must be wiped out

Otis Driftwood · 08-02-2012 11:00pm

irishh_bob,you have been warned before about your posting style in here a couple of times so if you are going to make ludicrous statements you have made above you better have a helluva lot more to back it up other than your own opinion.

Opinion does not = fact.

Final warning.

yahaw,if you have an issue with a post then please use the report post function,cheers.

pragmatic1 · 09-02-2012 12:00am

Looking after yourself and your family. Standing up for your beliefs.

Dudess · 12-02-2012 3:36pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

the majority of women perfer a real traditional man , unfortunatley its the noisy and agressive minority of man hating feminists who men hear and thus men misinterprete what women want

Could you provide even one example of these man-hating feminists, supported with examples of their behaviour? Could you and The Corinthian also enlighten as to how you know what "most" women want?

Better to distinguish between the real world and notions you personally hold.

I don't see how chivalry and being a bastard are two sides of the same coin.

The Corinthian · 12-02-2012 8:00pm

Dudess wrote: »

Could you provide even one example of these man-hating feminists, supported with examples of their behaviour? Could you and The Corinthian also enlighten as to how you know what "most" women want?

Hold on, I wasn't agreeing with him. I was simply pointing out that most women do like men who are to some degree or other chivalrous, but certainly they're not looking for the full package of a traditional man. Do you disagree?

Now, this might be cherry picking on the part of women and a result of changes in society in the last century, but I was pretty fair in that I equally accused men of the same type of behaviour. Again, do you think this an unfair observation?

I don't see how chivalry and being a bastard are two sides of the same coin?

That's another can of worms that was done to death in another thread.

Dudess · 12-02-2012 8:50pm

Ok, sorry for having a go. Post edited. There are notions of masculine and feminine but as said, the lines can get blurred. I don't agree that men are being forced to conform to appease the opposite sex. Sure, there are micro examples, but it's not the big picture. And ditto for women. I don't agree women are overall compromising their femininity either. The genders have evolved all right to less rigidly defined roles in society, but the basic tenets are still there.

I do think a man who's a non bastard can still be a somewhat traditional man - chivalrous, protective, not big on housework but making up for this with "manly" jobs. And nothing wrong with that IMO.

The Corinthian · 13-02-2012 3:14pm

Dudess wrote: »

Ok, sorry for having a go. Post edited. There are notions of masculine and feminine but as said, the lines can get blurred. I don't agree that men are being forced to conform to appease the opposite sex. Sure, there are micro examples, but it's not the big picture. And ditto for women. I don't agree women are overall compromising their femininity either. The genders have evolved all right to less rigidly defined roles in society, but the basic tenets are still there.

Less rigidly defined roles perhaps, but we do still impose them on each other.

If you don't believe me, try getting a woman if you're an average man who would rather be a house-husband than have a career or getting a man if you're an average woman who does not spend an inordinate amount of time on her appearance.

I do think a man who's a non bastard can still be a somewhat traditional man - chivalrous, protective, not big on housework but making up for this with "manly" jobs. And nothing wrong with that IMO.

Well yes and no as that would be the cherry picking I mentioned earlier.

Problem is that we've not really defined what the new roles are and so everyone, both men and women, are cherry picking what they like from both systems. This would be fine if we could have a balance, that meshed together, but instead both genders seem to be choosing equality only when it suits and tradition also only when it also suits. There is no agreement on what these roles should be; equal, traditional, somewhere in-between - and if the last no one agrees on where.

So women want to be equals in the workplace, but still maintain the near monopoly on child care, while men want to women to pull their weight financially, but will still expect them to do the bulk of the housework.

It's a bit of a mess, TBH.

py2006 · 13-02-2012 7:50pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

So women want to be equals in the workplace, but still maintain the near monopoly on child care, while men want to women to pull their weight financially, but will still expect them to do the bulk of the housework.

It's a bit of a mess, TBH.

Sorry to butt in here but do you really think men "expect" women to do the bulk of house work nowadays?

I don't know of any man who expects this. Perhaps, the older (post 50) more traditional man may do.

They may get lazy, forgetful or don't feel it necessary at times (as in the floor doesn't need to be moped daily). But I don't believe many men these days feel that it is the role of a woman necessarily. Not from my experience anyway.

The Corinthian · 13-02-2012 9:26pm

py2006 wrote: »

They may get lazy, forgetful or don't feel it necessary at times (as in the floor doesn't need to be moped daily).

Yup. That's normally the excuse used to justify it.

yawha · 13-02-2012 9:48pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Less rigidly defined roles perhaps, but we do still impose them on each other.

If you don't believe me, try getting a woman if you're an average man who would rather be a house-husband than have a career or getting a man if you're an average woman who does not spend an inordinate amount of time on her appearance.

Well yes and no as that would be the cherry picking I mentioned earlier.

Problem is that we've not really defined what the new roles are and so everyone, both men and women, are cherry picking what they like from both systems. This would be fine if we could have a balance, that meshed together, but instead both genders seem to be choosing equality only when it suits and tradition also only when it also suits. There is no agreement on what these roles should be; equal, traditional, somewhere in-between - and if the last no one agrees on where.

So women want to be equals in the workplace, but still maintain the near monopoly on child care, while men want to women to pull their weight financially, but will still expect them to do the bulk of the housework.

It's a bit of a mess, TBH.

Idk. Neither women nor men are a single entity, and no amount of "the vast majority of..." rhetoric has done much to convince me otherwise.

Sure there's no agreement on roles etc., but so what? Some are more traditional, some are more progressive, some have double standards or logically unreasonable stances on things, yes, but unreasonable people have always existed.

I think there are plenty of different, diverse people of both genders out there. I've certainly met many, and I've personally never found that the "have your cake and eat it" attitude you mention with regards benevolent vs malevolent sexism towards women is as prevalent as you make out.

py2006 · 13-02-2012 10:34pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yup. That's normally the excuse used to justify it.

I am not sure what you mean by "justify" here. Justify their belief that it is a womans role to do the housework?

I really don't know where you get your ideas on men from. In my experience it would be very unusual for a man under 40, certainly under 35, to have this attitude.

As a man myself I do not expect a woman to do all the housework nor do any of my male friends and I have never met a man who does.

We all get lazy from time to time with regards certainly chores but that doesn't mean it is not attributed to our gender. However, I do refuse to bulk iron clothes!! I iron what is required for the next day! :P

The Corinthian · 14-02-2012 5:32pm

yawha wrote: »

I've certainly met many, and I've personally never found that the "have your cake and eat it" attitude you mention with regards benevolent vs malevolent sexism towards women is as prevalent as you make out.

While obviously there are individual cases where such cherry picking by men are not present, statistically (not rhetorically, so it may satisfy you) it does appear that it is fairly prevalent:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6382429.stm
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/gmu-nsf082707.php

Please bare in mind that I am not suggesting that such men are indeed 'malevolent' chauvinist pigs, only that people when allowed to define their own moral or ethical frameworks with tend to do so in a manner that suits them.

py2006 wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean by "justify" here. Justify their belief that it is a womans role to do the housework?

No. Even if that is the subconscious belief, it cannot consciously justify it. Men do less housework than their girlfriends/wives because they 'forget' or 'not as fastidious' or are 'too busy' or a dozen other reasons - but the result is the same.

Men "do not expect a woman to do all the housework" but somehow women, on average, still do the majority of it in relationships. I suspect most men who do this don't even realize this - I certainly didn't until I looked at it objectively over a period of time.

PrincessLola · 17-02-2012 8:41pm

It doesn't sit well with me that men view anyhing remotely feminine as somehow demeaning or beneath them.
Society has become more equal and certain posters on here view that as evil wimmin taking over.
Guys, if the vast majority of world leaders were women and any movie with a mostly male cast was shunned as a man's flick you would call it a feminist conspiracy, guarranteed.

py2006 · 22-02-2012 1:06pm

PrincessLola wrote: »

Guys, if the vast majority of world leaders were women and any movie with a mostly male cast was shunned as a man's flick you would call it a feminist conspiracy, guarranteed.

If the vast majority of world leaders were women then most countries wouldn't be talking to each other.

Chick flicks refers to the story more so than the casting!

Logical Fallacy · 22-02-2012 1:32pm

PrincessLola wrote: »

It doesn't sit well with me that men view anyhing remotely feminine as somehow demeaning or beneath them.
Society has become more equal and certain posters on here view that as evil wimmin taking over.
Guys, if the vast majority of world leaders were women and any movie with a mostly male cast was shunned as a man's flick you would call it a feminist conspiracy, guarranteed.

Some men, not all.

Most movies with a mostly male cast are called "man flicks", which is awesome...as clearly the only thing i like in my movies are explosions and tits.

If this was a different forum there would be mention of looking at things from a certain perspective.

py2006 · 22-02-2012 8:54pm

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Some men, not all.

Most movies with a mostly male cast are called "man flicks", which is awesome...as clearly the only thing i like in my movies are explosions and tits.

If this was a different forum there would be mention of looking at things from a certain perspective.

I presume you are being sarcastic?

jaffacakesyum · 22-02-2012 10:16pm

py2006 wrote: »

If the vast majority of world leaders were women then most countries wouldn't be talking to each other. Chick flicks refers to the story more so than the casting!

If the vast majority of world leaders were women maybe countries wouldn't be blowing each other up all the time.

It's fun to generalise! :rolleyes: :pac:

py2006 · 22-02-2012 10:30pm

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

If the vast majority of world leaders were women maybe countries wouldn't be blowing each other up all the time.

It's fun to generalise! :rolleyes: :pac:

Oh plz! If the other leader had a nicer pair of shoes there would be war!

I jest of course...

...or do I?

jaffacakesyum · 22-02-2012 10:32pm

py2006 wrote: »

Oh plz! If the other leader had a nicer pair of shoes there would be war!

I jest of course...

...or do I?

:pac: lol

I'm not offended by either iof your posts by the way, I just wanted to point out that had I made my generalisation I'm sure somebody would call me up on it (maybe even you? :P )

Anyway, very off topic. I apologise

iptba · 23-02-2012 6:06am

py2006 wrote: »

Sorry to butt in here but do you really think men "expect" women to do the bulk of house work nowadays?

I don't know of any man who expects this. Perhaps, the older (post 50) more traditional man may do.

They may get lazy, forgetful or don't feel it necessary at times (as in the floor doesn't need to be moped daily).

I think this is an important point which rarely seems to get articulated in such discussions: for whatever reason, men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework. This seems to come out particularly when somebody might be visiting.

Who knows why this is. Women seem to be more interested in interior decoration/design for whatever reason. I'm inclined to believe its some inherent average difference, although I'm sure others, who think the average differences between men and women are just socialised, won't agree.

And I'm not sure why we should assume that the standard of housework a woman wants is the "right level".

yawha · 23-02-2012 7:29am

lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.

The Corinthian · 23-02-2012 12:45pm

yawha wrote: »

lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.

It's a valid point to an extent, although I'm not certain that I'd agree with it.

If 'men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework' (presuming men have a 'lower' or 'less fastidious' one), then it would follow that men will do less housework as their standard can be more easily met, while women - unhappy with this standard - will bring it up to the one that they're happy with (from a male perspective she would be creating unnecessary work for herself).

Where I'd disagree is that I would not agree with such a stereotypical difference of attitudes between the sexes - I think we've all met enough female 'slobs' and 'fastidious' males to debunk that.

iptba · 23-02-2012 2:31pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's a valid point to an extent, although I'm not certain that I'd agree with it.

If 'men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework' (presuming men have a 'lower' or 'less fastidious' one), then it would follow that men will do less housework as their standard can be more easily met, while women - unhappy with this standard - will bring it up to the one that they're happy with (from a male perspective she would be creating unnecessary work for herself).

Yes, that's exactly the point I'm making.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Where I'd disagree is that I would not agree with such a stereotypical difference of attitudes between the sexes - I think we've all met enough female 'slobs' and 'fastidious' males to debunk that.

And I've met enough to believe there is an average difference.
Do you also disagree with my suggestion that women on average have more of an interest in interior decoration/design than men?

iptba · 23-02-2012 2:38pm

yawha wrote: »

lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.

I thought it would have been clear that I was saying it was an important point in terms of the specific point in the discussion (as opposed to an important point in terms of everything in life).

The suggestion is that many men are deliberately leaving work for women. However, if men see that women are in effect creating work for themselves, they are not being negligent as it were. Yet, generally when we hearing discussions, this idea is not brought up.

If you feel the issue is trivial, probably best to leave it to other people who might be interested in it. We could all go around threads and say, "Lol, why are you talking about something which isn't important". It wouldn't make for a good environment.

The Corinthian · 23-02-2012 5:00pm

iptba wrote: »

Do you also disagree with my suggestion that women on average have more of an interest in interior decoration/design than men?

The old nest-building instinct theory?

TBH, this is one of those areas where I would not entirely trust myself to be judge objectively, largely because most men have more interest in interior decoration/design than me.

You do raise an interesting point vis-à-vis redundant housework, however I do feel that this, even if true, alone would not explain the statistical disparity between the genders with regards to the division of housework.

I do believe that we men do, regrettably, still have a bit of chauvinism lurking in our psyche.

iptba · 23-02-2012 5:15pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

The old nest-building instinct theory?

TBH, this is one of those areas where I would not entirely trust myself to be judge objectively, largely because most men have more interest in interior decoration/design than me.

I don't think one needs to apply any theory, although perhaps that is the reason. It would just seem empirically that the interior decoration/design market (magazines, etc.) is consumed more by women. The people who do such courses in college are nearly all women, etc. I've heard women say things that I would not associate with (heterosexual) men e.g. the pleasure they can get flicking through such magazines - it's almost like pornography (but not in a bad way). For whatever reason, there seems to be a bit of a difference to me.

But some men, perhaps more in those who are older, should do more at home. I remember my mum mentioning a man who, when his wife came home from the hospital after giving birth, started looking for his wife to make some tea for him.

But even among the younger generations, I don't think DIY jobs are divided 50/50 between men and women.

The Corinthian · 23-02-2012 5:34pm

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, however I would contend that much of this disparity is as a result of persistent gender stereotypes that are to this day perpetuated within society, by both chauvinism and, ironically, post-Feminism.

What does it mean to be a 'Man' in modern society?

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