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Christopher Nolan and his Plot-Holes

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  • 05-09-2011 3:21pm
    #1
    Orando Broom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭


    Christopher Nolan the director is some sort of gilded demi-god whose genius cannot be questioned, I beg to differ....

    I loved The Dark Knight, it had some great performances but a few things irked me.

    How did The Joker know for certain that the city would put the criminals on one ferry and citizens on the other? How did he know Jim Gordon would do this for certain.

    How did the Joker know he'd get arrested and placed in the same precinct as the guy with the bomb?

    How did the Joker know that Harvey Dent would be saved but get severely injured requiring hospitalisation in Gotham General, specifically.

    These are just a few small examples of stuff that irks me about Christopher Nolans 'this film is very clever' style of scripting and structuring. Sometimes you can be too clever for your own good. A simpler plot structure would not have diminished this excellent film in any way but instead you are left disliking the film on repeated watches.

    Inception also irks me because of this. How the **** did the business mogul not recognise his main ****ing business rivals son on the plane??? Simply impossible or at least inconceivable.


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    #2
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,919 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    Christopher Nolan the director is some sort of gilded demi-god whose genius cannot be questioned, I beg to differ....

    I loved The Dark Knight, it had some great performances but a few things irked me.

    How did The Joker know for certain that the city would put the criminals on one ferry and citizens on the other? How did he know Jim Gordon would do this for certain.

    How did the Joker know he'd get arrested and placed in the same precinct as the guy with the bomb?

    How did the Joker know that Harvey Dent would be saved but get severely injured requiring hospitalisation in Gotham General, specifically.

    These are just a few small examples of stuff that irks me about Christopher Nolans 'this film is very clever' style of scripting and structuring. Sometimes you can be too clever for your own good. A simpler plot structure would not have diminished this excellent film in any way but instead you are left disliking the film on repeated watches.

    Inception also irks me because of this. How the **** did the business mogul not recognise his main ****ing business rivals son on the plane??? Simply impossible or at least inconceivable.

    Is this yoke responsible for this piece of sh1t


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    #3
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Has he called the County Council?


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    #4
    mightyreds
    Registered Users Posts: 2,786 ✭✭✭mightyreds


    well they were hardly going to mix the prisoners up with general Population.They would always seperate them.

    And i dont think harvey dent being saved would come into mind until he was saved then his plot unfolded thats the way i would of seen it. harvey going crazy didnt really affect his plans just an added bonus.Also dent was made into this big attorney general going to save gotham from scum so i'd say he guessed everything possibe to save him would be done also he put them in the buildings they were in whats not to say he left dent closer to get to than rachels then when he got scared it just made it easier to turn him after rachels death too.

    And i cant really remember that part of inception but there was no bad blood between the 2 company owners was their i'm not certain, but if not it wouldnt of mattered company rivals i'm sure travel together all the time like that but then if their was a bit of agro you're point is Right.

    Its tough trying to remember the films on the spot but if i said anything wrong correct me and i'll try to remember the finer plot details


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    #5
    Guill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,331 ✭✭✭Guill


    It's only a movie.


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    #6
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Well he obviously didn't know which boat the prisoners were going to be loaded onto as both boats were rigged with explosives.

    And the thing about The Joker in that movie is chaos creates more chaos. He just followed his depraved chain of violence and left it to go where it took him.


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    #7
    Yakult
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 7,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Yakult


    Movie forum.

    Knock yourself out kid!


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    #8
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    How the **** did the business mogul not recognise his main ****ing business rivals son on the plane???

    You need to watch the film again, you have this backwards


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    #9
    GAAman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭GAAman


    You should call joe, he wouldn't stand for this s*it!! :mad:


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    #10
    Orando Broom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭Orando Broom


    Yakult wrote: »
    Movie forum.

    Knock yourself out kid!

    NOOO! Yakult!! AH will have more diverse opinions!!!


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    #11
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    It's only the loudmouth fanboys who think Nolan is some kind of genius.


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    #12
    FatherLen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭FatherLen


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Has he called the County Council?
    plot holes
    no pot holes


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    #13
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    Christopher Nolan the director is some sort of gilded demi-god whose genius cannot be questioned, I beg to differ....

    I loved The Dark Knight, it had some great performances but a few things irked me.

    How did The Joker know for certain that the city would put the criminals on one ferry and citizens on the other? How did he know Jim Gordon would do this for certain.

    How did the Joker know he'd get arrested and placed in the same precinct as the guy with the bomb?

    How did the Joker know that Harvey Dent would be saved but get severely injured requiring hospitalisation in Gotham General, specifically.

    These are just a few small examples of stuff that irks me about Christopher Nolans 'this film is very clever' style of scripting and structuring. Sometimes you can be too clever for your own good. A simpler plot structure would not have diminished this excellent film in any way but instead you are left disliking the film on repeated watches.

    Inception also irks me because of this. How the **** did the business mogul not recognise his main ****ing business rivals son on the plane??? Simply impossible or at least inconceivable.

    I thought the Joker was like, hyper sane (he's like that in the comics sometimes) where he can see exactly how everyone will act to a given stimulus at all times. He knows how everyone thinks, and is generally ahead of everyone else. He doesn't have more knowledge but he has human nature down.

    Also he killed a dude with a pencil.


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    #14
    GavRedKing
    Registered Users Posts: 53,262 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    Inception also irks me because of this. How the **** did the business mogul not recognise his main ****ing business rivals son on the plane??? Simply impossible or at least inconceivable.

    One point, the Asian dude had recently bought the airline company and the plan was to be on that plane with his competitors son, hence the plot in the film.


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    #15
    phasers
    Registered Users Posts: 18,159 ✭✭✭✭phasers


    Better question: How does Batman get into his tight leather suit? do you think he needs lotion?


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    #16
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    It's a film about a vigilante who dresses up like a bat and fights lunatic supervillains, also in costume... I'll forgive it a few far-fetched plotlines.


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    #17
    Orando Broom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭Orando Broom


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Well he obviously didn't know which boat the prisoners were going to be loaded onto as both boats were rigged with explosives.

    And the thing about The Joker in that movie is chaos creates more chaos. He just followed his depraved chain of violence and left it to go where it took him.

    But how did he know they were going to be loaded on any boat? A lot of the key plot devices hinged on huge what ifs.

    As someone said about Dent, Batman, who had a reasonable chance of saving one of Dent or Dawes went for Dent assuming it was Dawes. There was no way that The Joker would know that Batman would value Dawes over Dent. He could not possibly have forseen the outcome.

    The script writer never looked at this from the perspective of the people involved not knowing the outcomes. He looked at it from a perspective of omnicognisence where he knew how it would end. Nolan never factored this either and thus you have pretty gaping plot holes.


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    #18
    Temptamperu
    Registered Users Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭Temptamperu


    phasers wrote: »
    Better question: How does Batman get into his tight leather suit? do you think he needs lotion?
    Its not leather its a suit of armor.


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    #19
    LighterGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭LighterGuy


    Well mate, thats where the character comes in. (oh i am the type of person who believes a movie should make sense to the world it creates. Like if you are making a cop movie you dont suddenly give the detective super powers at the end like that crazy japanese movie dead or alive... what a weird movie)
    Orando Broom wrote: »
    How did The Joker know for certain that the city would put the criminals on one ferry and citizens on the other? How did he know Jim Gordon would do this for certain.

    the joker is crazy. almost a random type of person. So knowing that, the whole bombs on two ferries can be seem as something the joker took advantage of. After all he talks alot in the movie about just "doing things" ... If it was some villian who calculates everything down to a T before acting, yeah it would be too convenient. Wouldnt make sense.
    Orando Broom wrote: »
    How did the Joker know he'd get arrested and placed in the same precinct as the guy with the bomb?

    its probably better to ask how did the bomb guy know he would be taken to the police plaza that was holding joker and the chinese guy.
    Orando Broom wrote: »
    How did the Joker know that Harvey Dent would be saved but get severely injured requiring hospitalisation in Gotham General, specifically.

    I do believe the joker tried to kill dent. along with rachel. he didnt plan on dent surviving.
    Orando Broom wrote: »
    Inception also irks me because of this. How the **** did the business mogul not recognise his main ****ing business rivals son on the plane??? Simply impossible or at least inconceivable.

    Now that does leave a plot hole. Sure it can be explained by Cillian Murphy waking up and just thinking he was having a random dream with the people who met on the plane before sleeping. But knowing he had "mind extraction" defeses? yeah, you'd think he would be a little suspicious. But then again, as it says in the movie, how often can you remember a dream when waking up? ... So I dunno. Things were said in the movie for it to make sense (or cover the plot hole up?) :P


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    #20
    Orando Broom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭Orando Broom


    mikemac wrote: »
    You need to watch the film again, you have this backwards

    Explain...

    No need, yeah I got that arseways. How did Murphy not recognise his father's biggest rival.


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    #21
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    But how did he know they were going to be loaded on any boat? A lot of the key plot devices hinged on huge what ifs.

    As someone said about Dent, Batman, who had a reasonable chance of saving one of Dent or Dawes went for Dent assuming it was Dawes. There was no way that The Joker would know that Batman would value Dawes over Dent. He could not possibly have forseen the outcome.

    The script writer never looked at this from the perspective of the people involved not knowing the outcomes. He looked at it from a perspective of omnicognisence where he knew how it would end. Nolan never factored this either and thus you have pretty gaping plot holes.

    With regards to that, I believe there was a line stating that the bridges were closed and that was the only way to get them out of Gotham. So by threatening to blow up the bridges, the Joker knew they'd be put on ferries.

    As for the Joker's omnipotence, I agree it's a bit far-fetched, but I think they might explain that away by saying he was prepared for all eventualities, and if things had gone differently he would've pulled something out of the bag ready for that contingency.
    He probably had poor saps with mobiles in their stomachs in every precinct!

    Oh, and I think his talk of being an agent of chaos is a bit of a smokescreen to make people think he's crazy.
    He causes chaos, but he actually plans things carefully in order to bring about that chaos, and he's actually quite intelligent and sane (in his way).
    Remember early on when the guy called him crazy and he replied "No. No, I'm not." in a completely serious tone?
    He is insane in a way but not chaotic. He has his own method and logic, and likes creating chaos for everyone else.


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    #22
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    Christopher Nolan the director is some sort of gilded demi-god whose genius cannot be questioned, I beg to differ....

    I loved The Dark Knight, it had some great performances but a few things irked me.

    How did The Joker know for certain that the city would put the criminals on one ferry and citizens on the other? How did he know Jim Gordon would do this for certain.

    How did the Joker know he'd get arrested and placed in the same precinct as the guy with the bomb?

    How did the Joker know that Harvey Dent would be saved but get severely injured requiring hospitalisation in Gotham General, specifically.

    These are just a few small examples of stuff that irks me about Christopher Nolans 'this film is very clever' style of scripting and structuring. Sometimes you can be too clever for your own good. A simpler plot structure would not have diminished this excellent film in any way but instead you are left disliking the film on repeated watches.

    Inception also irks me because of this. How the **** did the business mogul not recognise his main ****ing business rivals son on the plane??? Simply impossible or at least inconceivable.

    he didnt, he doesnt have a plan, say this himself to Dent in the hospital, "I just...do things". there was obviously some kind of idea to creat chaos in Gotham so he was just going along with it.

    and its only a movie. theres plot holes in every film if you look hard enough.

    I like Nolans movies, they're not perfect, but its nice to have a director who shuns lazy cgi, an at least has something resembling a plot in his movies these days. watch The Prestige its one of his best movies.


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    #23
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Tron had a guy being sucked into a computer. Jurrasic Park was about cloning dinosaurs. Star Wars had bacteria that made you psychic. Cowboys and Aliens had cowboys fighting aliens.

    And you're here pointing out plotholes in Batman? They're not even plotholes. The Joker had informants everywhere. It was easy for him to get information and to organise certain situations (like which cell he'd be put in). If some of it was just based on a lucky guess, then it was a lucky guess. That's not a plothole, it's a contrivence.


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    #24
    dilallio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,728 ✭✭✭dilallio


    mikemac wrote: »
    You need to watch the film again, you have this backwards
    Nope. That would be Memento


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    #25
    ricero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭ricero


    wasnt there not corrupt police officers working for the mob who were also working with the joker ? im sure they were also high ranking officers and were in the know ;)


    IN NOLAN WE TRUST :D


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    #26
    Adyx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Adyx


    Yeah because that's what was wrong with that movie; the plot holes. Joel Schumacher's Batman films were better than that rubbish.


    Of course they weren't, but the Dark Knight was still shít.


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    #27
    Sin_J
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Sin_J


    Orando Broom wrote: »
    But how did he know they were going to be loaded on any boat? A lot of the key plot devices hinged on huge what ifs.

    The prison, along with the Arkham asylam, as shown in the first film, was on an island in the middle of the city. The joker tells the police that all of the bridges are rigged with explosives. Hence the only way off the island is the ferries.
    Orando Broom wrote: »
    As someone said about Dent, Batman, who had a reasonable chance of saving one of Dent or Dawes went for Dent assuming it was Dawes. There was no way that The Joker would know that Batman would value Dawes over Dent. He could not possibly have forseen the outcome.

    Joker bases who batman would go after based on batman jumping out a window after Rachael when he ambushes Bruce's fundraiser party. Joker says something to him along those lines later in the film about how he threw himself after her, essentially leaving the rest of the party goers to the joker. Why would he do that if he didnt care about her a bit more than any other random person at the party.

    Not to say that there aren't plot holes in the films, but from what you're picking out it seems that you watched the films while half asleep. Re watch with your full attention and you might think more of them.

    Also, before i get the nolan fanboi label thrown at me, there is a huge plothole in inception.

    Towards the end of the film, the van drives off the bridge, which is the first "kick", which they miss, no one wakes up as they are 2 levels deeper in the dream in the mountain/bunker dream and needed Arther's kick in the hotel dream to wake them so the van kick would work and everyone would wake up in the van.
    When the van went off the bridge, it still should have worked on Arther and he should have woken up in the van.


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    #28
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    Inception reminded me of Twin Peaks in that an hour and a half in I had no fcuking idea what was going on.


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    #29
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Sin_J wrote: »
    Also, before i get the nolan fanboi label thrown at me, there is a huge plothole in inception.

    Towards the end of the film, the van drives off the bridge, which is the first "kick", which they miss, no one wakes up as they are 2 levels deeper in the dream in the mountain/bunker dream and needed Arther's kick in the hotel dream to wake them so the van kick would work and everyone would wake up in the van.
    When the van went off the bridge, it still should have worked on Arther and he should have woken up in the van.

    never spotted that actually, good point.


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    #30
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    Yakult wrote: »
    Movie forum.

    Knock yourself out kid!


    This.


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