SSssooooo annoyed!

jen_23 · 26-12-2009 10:28pm #1

I went walking up by the marina in cork today with friends. There was 6 people in total, Gunnar, another Samoyed Ben, a golden retriever Joey, a Papillon Banjo and a labrador puppy Murphy.

All the dogs were off lead and Gunnar being curious went up to a terrier on lead to say hello.
I wish we had been paying more attention. But usually we leave them off lead and there is never a problem.
Anyway before I knew it Gunnar was being bitten by this MONGREL of a thing! The [strike]lady[/strike] IDIOT owner didn't so much as try to get him off, she didn't correct him or yank the lead. She just STOOD there and didn't even react. It was as if her dog was sniffing for a spot to cock his leg and she was just waiting :rolleyes:
It took 5 of us to get him off Gunnar BUT then he went for Ben. Again 5 of us to get him off while she stood there doing nothing again! I even kicked the little runt to try and get him to get off Ben. I was terrified for Ben as I though his eye was gone. Luckily he only had a little scrape.

Anyway she roared abuse at us saying it was very intimidating with all our dogs.... :rolleyes: :mad:

What that little runt did to Gunnar earlier

Very lucky that it wasn't a bit further down :nod:

I will not be responsible for my actions if I ever come across that person again... :mad:

Though I suppose I should be thankful as it was too close for comfort to Gunnars eye! We were supposed to be showing him in a championship show on Monday but there is no way I can show him now with his eye like that. Though thank GOD that is the biggest of my problems tonight.

I don't even want to think if it had been a little further south that was injured. He's happy in himself and seems to have forgotten about it too

MAB83 · 26-12-2009 10:42pm

Sorry to hear about your dog but when you have your dog off it's lead you have to take responsibility for the consequences.

jen_23 · 26-12-2009 10:44pm

Oh absolutely. I have no problem taking responsibility for Gunnar going up to an unfriendly dog. What I have issues with is some idiot standing there not even calling her dog off!!

boodlesdoodles · 26-12-2009 10:48pm

MAB83 wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your dog but when you have your dog off it's lead you have to take responsibility for the consequences.

And what about the responsibility of the person with their dog on the lead? I own a nervous dog and I'm very careful about being in control of him when they are off-leash dogs around. Its my responsibility to care for my dog and I'm not bothered what other people do with theirs as long as I know I have complete authority over my own little guy. That and I always carry a big stick with me.

MAB83 · 26-12-2009 10:49pm

Did she not react at all?

Very odd.

Could have been a lot worse, thankfully it didn't get his eye, will you need to take him to the Vet?

jen_23 · 26-12-2009 10:54pm

MAB83 wrote: »

Did she not react at all? Very odd.

Could have been a lot worse, thankfully it didn't get his eye, will you need to take him to the Vet?

She did nothing! She stood there while 5 people tried to get her dog off of Gunnar first and then ben.

Five people while she didn't so much yank the lead or tell him no.

When I say nothing I mean she didn't move 1 step. It really was nothing.

Unless it gets infected he should be okay. I've the area washed in disinfectant and an antiseptic cream on it. So I have my fingerscrossed that it's enough.

Whispered · 26-12-2009 10:57pm

Sorry to hear about gunnar but there is nothing more annoying than having a dog on a lead and an owner with an offlead dog allows their dog approach without checking. She probably had him on the lead because he is dog agressive. I would be furious if I was her TBH. Many dogs will react that way if an offlead dog approched when they are on lead. It is intimidating.

I don't think the fact the dog isn't a pure breed has anything to do with him attacking?

jen_23 · 26-12-2009 11:08pm

helena.ryan wrote: »

Sorry to hear about gunnar but there is nothing more annoying than having a dog on a lead and an owner with an offlead dog allows their dog approach without checking. She probably had him on the lead because he is dog agressive. I would be furious if I was her TBH. Many dogs will react that way if an offlead dog approched when they are on lead. It is intimidating.

I don't think the fact the dog isn't a pure breed has anything to do with him attacking?

How typical of boards...... lets turn it into an argument of pure breed vs not :rolleyes:
Of course I;m going to call her dog every name under the son. It attacked my FRIENDLY dog while SHE stood there and ALLOWED it to.

And so would you stand and allow your dog to bite another one. Doing nothing for a good 5 minutes? Well would you? Would you allow a childs hand to be bit off too??? For gods sake the majority of people with half a brain would pull their dog off.

ISDW · 26-12-2009 11:19pm

jen_23 wrote: »

How typical of boards...... lets turn it into an argument of pure breed vs not :rolleyes:
Of course I;m going to call her dog every name under the son. It attacked my FRIENDLY dog while SHE stood there and ALLOWED it to.

And so would you stand and allow your dog to bite another one. Doing nothing for a good 5 minutes? Well would you? Would you allow a childs hand to be bit off too??? For gods sake the majority of people with half a brain would pull their dog off.

Jen I'm sorry, but I think thats very unfair on helena, you posted in capital letters the word MONGREL, she's not turning it into an argument of pure breed vs not.

star-pants · 26-12-2009 11:28pm

Personally - if you have your dog off a lead - it's mostly your responsibility what happens.
I have my dogs on leads, they're nervous and wary, anyone comes close to them (with their kids or dogs on leads) I tell them, because I don't want someone trying to pet them or a dog to try sniffing just incase one gets spooked and something happens.

If a dog off lead came up and scared my dogs and they reacted I'd be well ticked off, especially if you kicked one of my dogs. Did you think perhaps the woman was scared?
My mother gets terrified when my two dogs fight (on the odd occasion), she literally can't move. Even when they're only play fighting she's semi rooted to the spot. This woman may have been like that, is ok with her own little dog, but if there's a fight she's terrified, you say she didn't move an inch. Some people don't know what to do in a fight situation, it can be quite scary.

Now I'm really sorry for what happened to your dog and your friends dog, but you can't put all the blame on the person who had their dog on a lead and who was possibly frightened by what was happening and didn't know what to do. When it stopped she got annoyed at you/your friends for having 5 dogs wandering around off lead, to another dog that can be intimidating. (certainly would be to my dogs)

Top Dog · 26-12-2009 11:29pm

helena.ryan wrote: »

Sorry to hear about gunnar but there is nothing more annoying than having a dog on a lead and an owner with an offlead dog allows their dog approach without checking. She probably had him on the lead because he is dog agressive. I would be furious if I was her TBH. Many dogs will react that way if an offlead dog approched when they are on lead. It is intimidating.

I don't think the fact the dog isn't a pure breed has anything to do with him attacking?

If he's dog aggressive, which todays incident would definitely suggest, then he should be muzzled. Simple as that. You do not take a dog-aggressive dog to an area that is known to be popular with dog owners, most of whom give their dogs a good run there. There were a good number of other dogs off-lead, many out jogging with their owners, and not a single one had an issue with any of our 5. We've been there a good number of times at this stage, come across loads of other dogs (majority off-lead), never had an issue up to today.

As for the bit about being a pure breed - who on earth suggested the incident happened because the attacking dog wasn't a pure-breed? Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't. Given the flurry of activity to separate the dog from Gunnar's & Ben's head, no-one really bothered to assess whether the other dog was a pure-breed or not. Either way doesn't matter to be honest so bringing it up is a bit pointless.

turtle dubh · 26-12-2009 11:31pm

Well Jen if i was out walking with my dog on a lead and I met 6 people walking with their dogs off their leads, I would not be happy. I would feel very intimidated and Im sure my dog would as well. I feel that you were in the wrong and not the woman with her dog on the lead.

tudlytops · 26-12-2009 11:33pm

This happen to one of my dogs a few years back, but the dog like yours mine wasn't gravelly hurt so I stayed foot and called the Guards, made an official complaint, they were made to pay all the vet fees and a fine.

My dog was fine and I was happy with the outcome.

tudlytops · 26-12-2009 11:37pm

turtle dubh wrote: »

Well Jen if i was out walking with my dog on a lead and I met 6 people walking with their dogs off their leads, I would not be happy. I would feel very intimidated and Im sure my dog would as well. I feel that you were in the wrong and not the woman with her dog on the lead.

Why? where I walk my dogs there are always loads of people with dogs off the leads, i often take mine off to so they can run about.

But I have one at the moment I have one that i wouldn't trust so i always keep that one on the lead, people know what kind of dog they have and should act accordingly

tudlytops · 26-12-2009 11:38pm

turtle dubh wrote: »

Well Jen if i was out walking with my dog on a lead and I met 6 people walking with their dogs off their leads, I would not be happy. I would feel very intimidated and Im sure my dog would as well. I feel that you were in the wrong and not the woman with her dog on the lead.

Tottaly agree, as i said at the moment I have one dog that i wouldn't trust so i always keep that one on the lead, people know what kind of dog they have and should act accordingly

jen_23 · 26-12-2009 11:41pm

jen_23 wrote: »

Oh absolutely. I have no problem taking responsibility for Gunnar going up to an unfriendly dog. What I have issues with is some idiot standing there not even calling her dog off!!

star-pants wrote: »

Personally - if you have your dog off a lead - it's mostly your responsibility what happens.

Note above I have already taken Part responsibiltiy for having him off lead.

Would a person have to take full responisibility for their child being bitten beacause a child curiously went up to the vicious dog? I don't think so. The point would not be that the child should have been on a lead the dog should have been muzzled!

star-pants wrote: »

If a dog off lead came up and scared my dogs and they reacted I'd be well ticked off, especially if you kicked one of my dogs. Did you think perhaps the woman was scared?

Scared of what? that my dog who was yelping in pain because her dog wouldn't let him go? Scared of my overly friendly dog who didn't even retaliate?

I kicked her dog when he was attacking the second dog and wouldn't let go. We thought he had his eye! So yes! I bloody well kicked him. And I would do it again to any dog that was attacking gunnar like that and an owner didn't have any control to get him off.
What was I supposed to do? Let him rip his face off or wait for the owner to come to her senses at somepoint when perhaps he had been mauled half to death to drag her dog off? I don't bloody think so!

She didn't seem to scared when she was shouting at us afterwords so no I don't think she was one bit scared.

star-pants wrote: »

Now I'm really sorry for what happened to your dog and your friends dog, but you can't put all the blame on the person who had their dog on a lead and who was possibly frightened by what was happening and didn't know what to do. When it stopped she got annoyed at you/your friends for having 5 dogs wandering around off lead, to another dog that can be intimidating. (certainly would be to my dogs)

I've already said I take part blame. I should have had gunnar on lead but stupidly assumed it would be like any other walk in a place we had walked many times before.
I can and will blame her for not doing anything to remove her dog from mine.
What if it was a child? could you not blame her then? Because that is another possible scenario.
Where we were walking is notorious for young families and dog walkers (most of whose dogs are off lead) to walk. Many times kids have come up to rub our dogs so what if they had gone up to hers and she froze?

turtle dubh · 26-12-2009 11:44pm

I know what kind of dog I have and how he is behaves. I dont know what kind of dog you or someone else has or how he behaves. I was out walking one day with my dog when a dog off his lead came up behind Me and bit me on the leg. The owner said I dont understand that he is always so well behaved. So I can assure you I am always wary now.

star-pants · 26-12-2009 11:51pm

Jen_23 I'm not going to start a debate - I'm just giving my opinion.

You said you weren't paying attention and suddenly Gunnar was being attacked, so you don't actually know what happened in that split second. He could have come up and sniffed her dog and her dog didn't like it or anything. Had she seen a child coming toward her dog she might have warned it off - who says she didn't tell your dog to get away?

By scared I mean a dog bounding up to say hello (no matter how friendly) if a dog is of nervous disposition it might frighten it into reacting.

Maybe her dog should have been muzzled, maybe your dog should have been on a lead/under your strict supervision.

I'm not saying it's all your fault but I'm saying you can't blame someone for being scared (if she was). As I explained my mother gets rooted to the spot, she's grand once it stops though.

As I said - I can understand you being annoyed and upset, and I'm glad both dogs are ok.

DoctorStrange · 26-12-2009 11:58pm

Think this is why people should have their dogs on a lead while out in public. You can only control your own dog and cannot expect other dogs/people to behave in a certain way.

Got to remember that this woman could have been walking her neighbours dog or one of here kids dog. Maybe this was the first time she ever walked a dog.

turtle dubh · 27-12-2009 12:01am

DoctorStrange wrote: »

Think this is why people should have their dogs on a lead while out in public. You can only control your own dog and cannot expect other dogs/people to behave in a certain way.

I fully agree with you

tudlytops · 27-12-2009 12:06am

DoctorStrange wrote: »

Think this is why people should have their dogs on a lead while out in public. You can only control your own dog and cannot expect other dogs/people to behave in a certain way.

turtle dubh wrote: »

I fully agree with you

Yes but for a lot of dogs this is there only chance to get to run around, not everyone is able to run along with their dogs, so they go to places known to be used by people to walk their dogs and let the dogs have a good run.

If I have a dog that i don't know i keep him on a lead until I know what he is like, if i know the dog to be good with other dogs and people i let it off the lead.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 12:10am

tudlytops wrote: »

Yes but for a lot of dogs this is there only chance to get to run around, not everyone is able to run along with their dogs, so they go to places known to be used by people to walk their dogs and let the dogs have a good run.

If I have a dog that i don't know i keep him on a lead until I know what he is like, if i know the dog to be good with other dogs and people i let it off the lead.

Exactly. If I for one second though Gunnar had a bit of malice in him he would never be allowed off lead. He has never once growled at me. He has never been anything but friendly to all other animals and that includes dogs, cats, horses, cows and birds!
He just submits to other dogs that growl at him he never retaliates.
He is overly friendly. He is good with all people. Though I do put him back on lead when we are around kids and babies just in case he might jump up and knock them over out of friendliness.

If I ever owned a dog that had a tendancy to bite. He would be muzzled!

DoctorStrange · 27-12-2009 12:18am

@jen_23 I don't think you did anything wrong. You sound like an ideal dog owner. The point I was making is that you can't choose the people you share the park with. If it's a public park then any weirdo etc can enter this park with their dog. I totally understand why your upset but if you let your dog off the lead then these things can happen

Blueprint · 27-12-2009 12:19am

I know it was a horrible experience, but your dog really shouldn't run up to other dogs on lead and no permanent damage was done, so it might have actually have been a good learning experience for your dog. (Although the reaction of his walker was more than a little odd...)

Something similar happened to my guy when he was under a year old, he saw another dog in the distance and ran up to him, completely ignoring my efforts to call him back and got bitten in the face. Since then he's never once ran up to another dog and lies down and waits for dogs to come up to him or indicate they are friendly before approaching. At the time I was really upset about it and going on about the other dog really should be muzzled, but in the end it was completely my fault for not having proper control of my dog.

I always pop Jasper back on the lead when I see we're approaching another dog who is onlead, as it's not fair on the other dog to have off lead dogs running up to him and Jasper wouldn't like it either, even if he doesn't bite!

Calhoun · 27-12-2009 12:23am

jen_23 wrote: »

How typical of boards...... lets turn it into an argument of pure breed vs not :rolleyes:
Of course I;m going to call her dog every name under the son. It attacked my FRIENDLY dog while SHE stood there and ALLOWED it to.

And so would you stand and allow your dog to bite another one. Doing nothing for a good 5 minutes? Well would you? Would you allow a childs hand to be bit off too??? For gods sake the majority of people with half a brain would pull their dog off.

What exactly are you looking from your post? some validation that you are in the right? you have admitted some fault and the owner of the other dog seems to be at fault.

Learn from it and move on, as has been said plenty of times on this post already you can only control your own dog and the best way to do that is with a lead.

tudlytops · 27-12-2009 12:28am

Calhoun wrote: »

What exactly are you looking from your post? some validation that you are in the right? you have admitted some fault and the owner of the other dog seems to be at fault.

Learn from it and move on, as has been said plenty of times on this post already you can only control your own dog and the best way to do that is with a lead.

She was just saying she's annoyed, not necessary that her dog got bitten, but that the owner of the other dog done nothing to try and stop it.

I know dogs will be dogs and really all dogs are unpredictable, but I would also be very annoyed if the owner didn't try and help and own up to vet costs if there were any.

Calhoun · 27-12-2009 12:38am

tudlytops wrote: »

She was just saying she's annoyed, not necessary that her dog got bitten, but that the owner of the other dog done nothing to try and stop it.

I know dogs will be dogs and really all dogs are unpredictable, but I would also be very annoyed if the owner didn't try and help and own up to vet costs if there were any.

All i am saying is that the story is very one sided and when the OP was called on the leash issue there was a small outburst.

Dogs will be dogs but i would also be equally be annoyed if the owner of an unleashed dog put me in a situation where i had to pull my dog off another dog and then expected me to pay because they couldn't keep their dog under control.

tudlytops · 27-12-2009 12:48am

Calhoun wrote: »

All i am saying is that the story is very one sided and when the OP was called on the leash issue there was a small outburst.

Dogs will be dogs but i would also be equally be annoyed if the owner of an unleashed dog put me in a situation where i had to pull my dog off another dog and then expected me to pay because they couldn't keep their dog under control.

I though she said her dog was on a leash?

If one of my dogs attacked any other dog I would pay for any vet treatment needed.

like I said at the moment I have a nervous dog and when we go out he is always on a lead and muzzled and this will be the case until i am satisfied that his behaviour as changed.

I know he is nervous and that if another dog approached him he would bit so it is my responsibility to make sure he doesn't.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 12:51am

Calhoun wrote: »

What exactly are you looking from your post? some validation that you are in the right? you have admitted some fault and the owner of the other dog seems to be at fault.

Learn from it and move on, as has been said plenty of times on this post already you can only control your own dog and the best way to do that is with a lead.

Exactly as tudlytops has said below. That the owner did NOTHING to pull her dog off mine or the other dog.
And quite frankly I was annoyed and upset not just because my dog had been bitten as I HAVE already claimed SOME responsibility for that but because the woman stood there and did nothing. Things could have been alot worse and luckily they weren't.

If I wanted validation I was in the right would I have admitted part responsibility? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have:rolleyes:

I will learn from it and I will move on however right now I just wanted to vent about it....

tudlytops wrote: »

She was just saying she's annoyed, not necessary that her dog got bitten, but that the owner of the other dog done nothing to try and stop it.

I know dogs will be dogs and really all dogs are unpredictable, but I would also be very annoyed if the owner didn't try and help and own up to vet costs if there were any.

Exactly thank you and i'm pretty sure alot of people in my situation whos dogs were being bitten and the owner just stood there and allowed it to happen would be rightly annoyed!

Calhoun wrote: »

All i am saying is that the story is very one sided and when the OP was called on the leash issue there was a small outburst.

Dogs will be dogs but i would also be equally be annoyed if the owner of an unleashed dog put me in a situation where i had to pull my dog off another dog and then expected me to pay because they couldn't keep their dog under control.

If your dog is any way inclined to bite other dogs or people it should be muzzled in places notoriously known for people walking their dogs off lead or families out for a walk. End of story!

Calhoun · 27-12-2009 12:52am

tudlytops wrote: »

I though she said her dog was on a leash?

If one of my dogs attacked any other dog I would pay for any vet treatment needed.

like I said at the moment I have a nervous dog and when we go out he is always on a lead and muzzled and this will be the case until i am satisfied that his behaviour as changed.

I know he is nervous and that if another dog approached him he would bit so it is my responsibility to make sure he doesn't.

the ops dog was not on a leash, there were 6 dogs not on leash running around.

It is your responsibility to make sure your dog doesn't bite but it is also the responsibility of other dog owners to have proper control of their dogs. in this case the OP's dog was off a leash and ended up being bitten so the owner is at part fault.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 12:55am

Calhoun wrote: »

the ops dog was not on a leash, there were 6 dogs not on leash running around.

It is your responsibility to make sure your dog doesn't bite but it is also the responsibility of other dog owners to have proper control of their dogs. in this case the OP's dog was off a leash and ended up being bitten so the owner is at part fault.

Actually there were probably about atleast 20 dogs off lead. Only 5 were belonging to our group.;)

Gunnar was after running ahead of us and had been attacked. I and my bf had to run up to him when we heard him yelping as the other dog was then biting him.

And I have several times in this thread claimed part fault. Do I have to claim it another 10 times before you are satisfied?

My issue is not that my dog was bitten but that the owner did nothing to pull her dog off! I would never stand and allow my dog to attack someone (not that he ever has and is unlikely to.... he might lick you to death possibly..... ) or another dog and not attempt to stop him. That is my issue.
How can people not at the very least try and stop their dog from mauling another!

Top Dog · 27-12-2009 1:03am

star-pants wrote: »

You said you weren't paying attention and suddenly Gunnar was being attacked, so you don't actually know what happened in that split second. He could have come up and sniffed her dog and her dog didn't like it or anything. Had she seen a child coming toward her dog she might have warned it off - who says she didn't tell your dog to get away?

By scared I mean a dog bounding up to say hello (no matter how friendly) if a dog is of nervous disposition it might frighten it into reacting.

I know exactly what happened.

Gunnar, along with Ben (another Samoyed), Joey (a Golden) and Banjo (a Papillon) were wandering along in front of their owners. No bounding, just wandering and sniffing.

Along come another 2 dogs, and as with each of the 8 dogs we'd previously met, our lot wander over (not bound, not threatening, not aggressive) to say hello & have a sniff. With no warning growl or anything, the smaller on-lead dog launches at Gunnar, embedding its canines in his forehead. The owner stands there, loose lead, doing nothing. Between 4 of us we manage to separate the dog from Gunnar's head, when next thing we know its got its canine buried in Ben's forehead now. It took 5 of us to get him off Ben. I had his back legs, one of the others got his front, Jen tried hitting him, while the other 2 tried to pull Ben free of the dogs grip.

All this time the owner just stood there observing, with (as I stated) a loose lead. The least she could have done was pull her dog back after the first attack to try prevent the second one. Now I don't mind if someone is scared, thats a reasonable response to such an incident, but I'd like to hope that the gut response from the vast majority of dog-owners would be to at least pull on their own dogs lead to try to get it to let go and prevent it from getting stuck into a second dog.

To compound this she had the audacity to hurl abuse at all of us afterwards, the sort of thing that if I were to type it I can guarantee that the forum software would most likely asterix every second word.

Most reasonably balanced dogs will give a warning growl if they're uncomfortable with something, and most reasonable owners will know their dogs well enough to know when a situation could flare up. Yes, our dogs were off lead, and Jen has accepted part-responsibility for what happened. But the person handling the other dogs showed zero remorse for the incident, accepting zero blame. That simply isn't on.

I'm just glad that the dog didn't launch at Banjo (the Papillon) or Murphy (the Lab pup) as the damage could have been a lot more severe. :eek:

Calhoun wrote: »

What exactly are you looking from your post? some validation that you are in the right? you have admitted some fault and the owner of the other dog seems to be at fault.

She was looking to vent - something we all do after a stressful incident. I hope if the same ever happens you that you don't meet with the same response that Jen has on this thread. :rolleyes:

Calhoun wrote: »

All i am saying is that the story is very one sided and when the OP was called on the leash issue there was a small outburst.

Am I invisible here? There's a witness to the incident posting on the thread too in case you missed it.

Calhoun wrote: »

Dogs will be dogs but i would also be equally be annoyed if the owner of an unleashed dog put me in a situation where i had to pull my dog off another dog and then expected me to pay because they couldn't keep their dog under control.

At least you're willing to acknowledge that you might need to pull your dog off another one in such a situation - something this other owner never tried. :mad:

Whispered · 27-12-2009 1:15am

jen_23 wrote: »

, another Samoyed Ben, a golden retriever Joey, a Papillon Banjo and a labrador puppy Murphy......Anyway before I knew it Gunnar was being bitten by this MONGREL of a thing! ..... I even kicked the little runt .....What that little runt did QUOTE]

jen_23 wrote: »

How typical of boards...... lets turn it into an argument of pure breed vs not :rolleyes:
.

yes Jen how very typical. You list your dogs and breeds then proceed to call her dog mongeral, runt etc. Very typical indeed.

Top Dog wrote: »

As for the bit about being a pure breed - who on earth suggested the incident happened because the attacking dog wasn't a pure-breed? Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't. ..... Either way doesn't matter to be honest so bringing it up is a bit pointless.

Jen suggested it, or at least made a point to let us know her dogs were attacked by a "runt" and a "mongeral". She brought breed up and I think it was very insulting to anybody with a mongeral.

jen_23 wrote: »

And so would you stand and allow your dog to bite another one. Doing nothing for a good 5 minutes? Well would you? Would you allow a childs hand to be bit off too??? For gods sake the majority of people with half a brain would pull their dog off.

some people would be too afraid to put their hand down to a dog they don't know. Some people "with half a brain" (your words not mine) would have their dog properly supervised. If a child was to come up to my dog without a parent there, I'd think the child neglected and wonder what the parents where doing allowing their child approach strange dogs.

Top Dog wrote: »

If he's dog aggressive, which todays incident would definitely suggest, then he should be muzzled. Simple as that. You do not take a dog-aggressive dog to an area that is known to be popular with dog owners, most of whom give their dogs a good run there. There were a good number of other dogs off-lead, many out jogging with their owners, and not a single one had an issue with any of our 5. We've been there a good number of times at this stage, come across loads of other dogs (majority off-lead), never had an issue up to today.
.

If he's dog agressive, he should be walked on a lead....oh wait now, he was. And an unsupervised dog ran/walked up to him. Are you really suggesting that the lady was wrong to be walking her dog on a lead in a public place? I know of a few dogs who are not usually dog agressive, but if they are leashed they react out of a feeling of being trapped. One of these is a boxer we walk with nearly every day. The dogs play together brilliantly, but as soon as she is leashed, she lashes out. She shouldn't be muzzled. She just needs people around her to be responsible for their own dogs.

tudlytops wrote: »

But I have one at the moment I have one that i wouldn't trust so i always keep that one on the lead, people know what kind of dog they have and should act accordingly

Do you muzzle it? That is what people appear to be suggesting. If you have a dog who can be dog agressive, or nervous agressive, you should muzzle him at all times in case someone decides to let their dog run around not properly supervised.:rolleyes:

tudlytops wrote: »

Yes but for a lot of dogs this is there only chance to get to run around, not everyone is able to run along with their dogs, so they go to places known to be used by people to walk their dogs and let the dogs have a good run..

Thats fine. So long as you supervise your dog.

My dog gets time off lead every walk, but if we see a dog on a lead near us, we will call him back. It's just not fair on another dog to be approached when they have nowhere to go. If the are nervous, they react with fight or flight. Take away the flight and they have no option. So a nervous dog, being approached by a dog they don't know will often react in that way.

I can understand Jen being annoyed that the owner didn't pull her dog off, but it could have been fear on the owners part. Fault was there with the OP in the first place. Your dog was off lead, not properly supervised and he got bitten. How come none of the other 20 dogs there who were off lead didn't get bitten?

star-pants · 27-12-2009 1:17am

Top_Dog -- I appreciate the full recount, to be fair someone giving a rough overview of what happened can make some people wonder.

The fact the owner did nothing whatsoever is yes very odd, but as I said my mother freezes right up when our dogs fight, she can't move a muscle (probably because she was bitten twice in her life by dogs, both times to save a child, one of them me). It's not an unreasonable reaction from someone, to freeze up. This could be one of many reasons the owner didn't even pull the lead (because you'd automatically do that).

Yes the owner of the other dog was partly in the wrong if her dog is aggressive - she should have warned oncoming dogs or maybe had the dog muzzled.
Yes Jen_23 has accepted that she should have had her dog on a lead/very close to her.
But I think what some people are saying is that if you have your dog on a lead you're better able to prevent things happening to them, you can't control other dogs/people. And in the opening post to come in going 'my dog was off lead another on lead dog bit it the woman did nothing, both the woman and the dog are stupid' is going to react with some people - even though I can understand the need to vent and understand that's not what Jen_23 was coming in saying.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off lead dogs wandering along if I had my dogs on lead, because I know I can hold back my dogs, etc, but I've no control over someone elses dog. If I was on my own, I'd be grand.

As I said I'm not looking to argue - I'm just giving my opinion

Calhoun · 27-12-2009 1:18am

jen_23 wrote: »

Actually there were probably about atleast 20 dogs off lead. Only 5 were belonging to our group.;)

Gunnar was after running ahead of us and had been attacked. I and my bf had to run up to him when we heard him yelping as the other dog was then biting him.

And I have several times in this thread claimed part fault. Do I have to claim it another 10 times before you are satisfied?

My issue is not that my dog was bitten but that the owner did nothing to pull her dog off! I would never stand and allow my dog to attack someone (not that he ever has and is unlikely to.... he might lick you to death possibly..... ) or another dog and not attempt to stop him. That is my issue.
How can people not at the very least try and stop their dog from mauling another!

Ok, that is fine but the tone and some of your responses don't get that across, when i saw what you posted i though of another typical situation on boards, where a poster comes on looking for support even though they are partly at fault.

My Issue is that other dog owners should not be put in a position where they have to drag their dog off another. You don't know the situation of the other person and from reading your post you didn't stick around to find out.

As for your issue i do agree with you, if the owner knowingly didnt pull their dog off then fair enough but their could be a number of reasons for why she didn't as pointed out by starpants.

Anyways we are going around in circles you have learned something valuable today and thank god there are no long last effects so learn from this and move on.

MissC · 27-12-2009 1:21am

star-pants wrote: »

And in the opening post to come in going 'my dog was off lead another on lead dog bit it the woman did nothing, both the woman and the dog are stupid' is going to react with some people - even though I can understand the need to vent and understand that's not what Jen_23 was coming in saying.

The use of 'MONGREL of a thing' doesn't really endear people either.

Calhoun · 27-12-2009 1:24am

Top Dog wrote: »

She was looking to vent - something we all do after a stressful incident. I hope if the same ever happens you that you don't meet with the same response that Jen has on this thread. :rolleyes:

Am I invisible here? There's a witness to the incident posting on the thread too in case you missed it.

At least you're willing to acknowledge that you might need to pull your dog off another one in such a situation - something this other owner never tried. :mad:

I understand all to well that she is venting and it can clearly be seen in her post how annoyed she is and i can relate to that but if feedback wasn't wanted there is a ranting and raving forum where people are now allowed to disagree.

You are not invisible but to be honest could you say your opinion isn't un-biased?

Of course i would pull my dog off another one as to be honest i would have concerns for my own dogs health as much as the other dog.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:27am

MissC wrote: »

The use of 'MONGREL of a thing' doesn't really endear people either.

Have your dog and another dog you care about that are the two most placid things you will ever come across bitten .. hurt ... and potentially even worse (we were very lucky - an eye could have been lost today)... and then come back here and tell me i'm wrong for wanting to call a vicous dog names

If it happens to you. If you can stay calm. Come back and tell me off.

MissC · 27-12-2009 1:28am

I thought your problem was with the stupid owner and not the pedigree of the dog?

Edited to add, I can understand you are annoyed, I've had similar things happen to me and its very frightening and annoying but its your choice of language I find ignorant and derogatory.

Whispered · 27-12-2009 1:36am

jen_23 wrote: »

If it happens to you. If you can stay calm. Come back and tell me off.

my dog is a large fella. We visited my mother over christmas. She has a small dog. During the course of the evening, My mothers dog jumped on his face, Harley bit back. He's a staff cross and people would have you believe it's impossible to seperate them, so I got such a fright. I immediately stuck my knee between them, I could think of nothing else to do. I then grabbed Harleys collar and walked towards him, while the other dog continued to bite. It was over in seconds but far from being annoyed with the dog who attacked, I'm embarassed that I wasn't paying closer attention, I'm guilty for turning to Harley and pulling him away while the other dog continued to snap, I'm frustrated that I allowed my mothers dog be put into a situation where he felt the need to react that way and I'm wondering how to prevent it again.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:42am

helena.ryan wrote: »

yes Jen how very typical. You list your dogs and breeds then proceed to call her dog mongeral, runt etc. Very typical indeed.

And people use whatever words they want to when they are angry but hey! Read it and automatically think 'oh she's using a derogitary word to describe a mix breed'. I actually have no idea other than terrier type of what the dog was. I wasn't exactly looking trying to figure it out. I will use whatever word I want to describe a vicous dog attacking mine!

helena.ryan wrote: »

some people would be too afraid to put their hand down to a dog they don't know. Some people "with half a brain" (your words not mine) would have their dog properly supervised. If a child was to come up to my dog without a parent there, I'd think the child neglected and wonder what the parents where doing allowing their child approach strange dogs.

Well you know what there are a lot of half wit people having children in this country considering the amount of 'unsupervised' children that come over rubbing Gunnar while there parents are pre-occupied! I having half a brain have to tell these children to ask to rub him. Not because he is vicious but because potentially the next dog might be.

helena.ryan wrote: »

If he's dog agressive, he should be walked on a lead....oh wait now, he was. And an unsupervised dog ran/walked up to him. Are you really suggesting that the lady was wrong to be walking her dog on a lead in a public place?

She was in the wrong for standing idly by while her dog viciously attacked 2 dogs! He might have been a lead but there certainly was not any control over him.

helena.ryan wrote: »

I can understand Jen being annoyed that the owner didn't pull her dog off, but it could have been fear on the owners part. Fault was there with the OP in the first place. Your dog was off lead, not properly supervised and he got bitten. How come none of the other 20 dogs there who were off lead didn't get bitten?

Fear or no fear you atleast tighten the leash and at the very least say NO! How many people would stand there and do absolutely nothing?

Would you stand there and do nothing?

As for the other 20 dogs I unfortunatly never conducted a survey.... so maybe some were... perhaps not.... How would I know?

Top Dog · 27-12-2009 1:48am

helena.ryan wrote: »

yes Jen how very typical. You list your dogs and breeds then proceed to call her dog mongeral, runt etc. Very typical indeed.

Jen suggested it, or at least made a point to let us know her dogs were attacked by a "runt" and a "mongeral". She brought breed up and I think it was very insulting to anybody with a mongeral.

So you would NEVER call a bloke that upset you a bastard or a woman who upset you a bitch? Regardless of whether or not its 100% accurate?

Try climbing down off your high horse for a min and realise that the girl was upset. She'd witnessed her dog being attacked, another dog being attacked, and afterwards see's there's a chunk missing from her dog's forehead. Surely its understandable that she's going to vent and the accuracy of that venting really shouldn't be scrutinised?

She (obviously mistakenly now) thought she might get a little bit of sympathy here - I guess we both know better now.

helena.ryan wrote:

If he's dog agressive, he should be walked on a lead....oh wait now, he was. And an unsupervised dog ran/walked up to him. Are you really suggesting that the lady was wrong to be walking her dog on a lead in a public place?

I'm not even going to go near your calling this other person a lady ...

But yes, I am suggesting that the person was wrong for walking her (obviously) dog-aggressive dog in a public place thats extremely well known to be a popular dog-walking spot. A place you can be 100% guaranteed to come across other dogs off-lead. If she wanted to walk there she should have had her dog muzzled. Unless she's a total blow-in to Cork city (in which case I doubt she'd have known about this location) then I fail to see how she has any reasonable excuse for not having her dog muzzled there.

If Gunnar & Ben were on a loose lead they could still have been attacked.

tudlytops wrote: »

How come none of the other 20 dogs there who were off lead didn't get bitten?

Maybe they did after we passed - we didn't follow the woman and her dogs so there's no way of knowing if there was a third attack to follow the first two.

star-pants wrote: »

Top_Dog -- I appreciate the full recount, to be fair someone giving a rough overview of what happened can make some people wonder.

Fair point.

star-pants wrote:

The fact the owner did nothing whatsoever is yes very odd, but as I said my mother freezes right up when our dogs fight, she can't move a muscle (probably because she was bitten twice in her life by dogs, both times to save a child, one of them me). It's not an unreasonable reaction from someone, to freeze up. This could be one of many reasons the owner didn't even pull the lead (because you'd automatically do that).

I'm sorry to hear about your mother being bitten, its never a nice thing.

Can I ask though, would she (knowing she has this inbuilt fear) knowingly take her dog to a popular walking spot where it is common knowledge that a great number of dogs will be off-lead and will also most likely have a sniff of her dog?

star-pants wrote:

But I think what some people are saying is that if you have your dog on a lead you're better able to prevent things happening to them, you can't control other dogs/people.

I don't disagree that you have better ability to control your dog on a lead. But I think the point that Jen is trying to make, and it would seem has been missed by a number of people, is that even if all our dogs were on lead this could still have happened. The real point to all this was the lack of reaction from the owner, and the verbal abuse she hurled at us afterwards.

star-pants wrote:

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off lead dogs wandering along if I had my dogs on lead, because I know I can hold back my dogs, etc, but I've no control over someone elses dog. If I was on my own, I'd be grand.

Again same sort of question as asked about your mother - if you wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off-lead dogs, would you knowingly bring your dogs to a popular location where the majority (and I'm not exaggerating by saying majority) of other dogs are off-lead?

star-pants wrote:

As I said I'm not looking to argue - I'm just giving my opinion

I'm not looking to argue either - just trying to clarify some details and defend a friend who I feel has been unnecessarily criticised by some

MissC wrote: »

The use of 'MONGREL of a thing' doesn't really endear people either.

If a dog attacked my dog I'm sure I'd call it a mutt, mongrel, little shite etc. In the heat of the moment, when emotions are running high, the accuracy of such words has absolutly no relevance.

Calhoun wrote:

You are not invisible but to be honest could you say your opinion isn't un-biased?

Biased? Probably. However its also very accurate.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:50am

helena.ryan wrote: »

my dog is a large fella. We visited my mother over christmas. She has a small dog. During the course of the evening, My mothers dog jumped on his face, Harley bit back. He's a staff cross and people would have you believe it's impossible to seperate them, so I got such a fright. I immediately stuck my knee between them, I could think of nothing else to do. I then grabbed Harleys collar and walked towards him, while the other dog continued to bite. It was over in seconds but far from being annoyed with the dog who attacked, I'm embarassed that I wasn't paying closer attention, I'm guilty for turning to Harley and pulling him away while the other dog continued to snap, I'm frustrated that I allowed my mothers dog be put into a situation where he felt the need to react that way and I'm wondering how to prevent it again.

That is very different.
1. You knew the dog
2. there wasn't an owner standing there doing nothing to pull her dog off... 2 dogs!
3. Your dog bit back. Mine yelped looking for the pain to stop!

tudlytops · 27-12-2009 1:50am

helena.ryan wrote: »

my dog is a large fella. We visited my mother over christmas. She has a small dog. During the course of the evening, My mothers dog jumped on his face, Harley bit back. He's a staff cross and people would have you believe it's impossible to seperate them, so I got such a fright. I immediately stuck my knee between them, I could think of nothing else to do. I then grabbed Harleys collar and walked towards him, while the other dog continued to bite. It was over in seconds but far from being annoyed with the dog who attacked, I'm embarassed that I wasn't paying closer attention, I'm guilty for turning to Harley and pulling him away while the other dog continued to snap, I'm frustrated that I allowed my mothers dog be put into a situation where he felt the need to react that way and I'm wondering how to prevent it again.

If i have someone coming over with a pet, I know that 1 of my dogs is nervous so i will either muzzle him or keep him in another room.

tudlytops · 27-12-2009 1:52am

MissC wrote: »

I thought your problem was with the stupid owner and not the pedigree of the dog?

Edited to add, I can understand you are annoyed, I've had similar things happen to me and its very frightening and annoying but its your choice of language I find ignorant and derogatory.

Common she was annoyed that is all. Why does everything have to end up presonal

boomerang · 27-12-2009 1:52am

It sounds to me as if the lady didn't know how to react when Gunnar and her dog got in a scrap. I've seen that happen a lot with people when dogs fight - they're in such a state of shock, they're rooted to the ground and someone else has to step in and separate the dogs.

I'd imagine she was shouting at ye afterwards because she got such an awful fright.

Your dog may be friendly but that doesn't make it a good thing that he bounds up on top of other dogs, even if he does it in a good-natured way. My own dog can't cope with that at all. A lot of dogs find that kind of head-on exuberance intimidating and will react aggressively through fear.I've been in situations where someone's off lead dog has ran straight up to mine, sparking off a row while the owner looks on, dumbstruck. Remember too that a lot of dogs feel insecure while on a lead around free-running dogs.

I honestly can't see how the lady can be blamed in all of this. She wasn't doing anything wrong. It's very mean of you to describe the other dog as a mongrel and a runt.

Unfortunately I'd just say you're one of the people with a good-natured, friendly dog who takes it for granted that other dogs are just as tolerant. Just chalk it down to experience.

Magenta · 27-12-2009 2:02am

jen_23 wrote: »

I kicked her dog when he was attacking the second dog and wouldn't let go. We thought he had his eye! So yes! I bloody well kicked him.

What was I supposed to do? Let him rip his face off or wait for the owner to come to her senses at somepoint when perhaps he had been mauled half to death to drag her dog off? I don't bloody think so!

First of all, you should have had your dog on a lead.
That woman is walking her small dog and she has 5 unleashed dogs running around. Of course she was intimidated.

Second, your dog's injuries are not that bad. He looks a little like Shane Lynch circa 1997, which I doubt would help in your little pedigree show.

Third, you've admitted "bloody well kicking" the other woman's dog.
Now, we know the dog is only a "runt" and a "MONGREL", but if it turns out that dog has internal injuries from the kicking you gave it, are you going to foot the vet's bill?

doctor evil · 27-12-2009 2:49am

Keep your dog on a lead (also sounds you and him could do with some training so he will stay at heel)

If two dogs are fighting/scrapping/whatever you do not put your hand in to pull them apart, that is one sure way to end with a nasty injury.

What is the by law of this local area regarding leads?

Jemmy · 27-12-2009 2:54am

tudlytops wrote: »

She was just saying she's annoyed, not necessary that her dog got bitten, but that the owner of the other dog done nothing to try and stop it.

I know dogs will be dogs and really all dogs are unpredictable, but I would also be very annoyed if the owner didn't try and help and own up to vet costs if there were any.

You have no idea what was going through that womans head, my mother got bitten when she was a teenager very close to her eye and nearly lost it because she tried to stop 2 dogs fighting. Maybe the woman was in shock or whatever you don't know, these kinda things happen so fast.

IMO you were both in the wrong, it could have been worse, so just be thankful it wasn't. Maybe next time keep him on a lead and away from the dangers of others and the unknown around you, just like you would a child. (seen as you keep comparing it!)

Orla K · 27-12-2009 3:18am

I have to say something similar happened to me but the other way around.

I was walking two small dogs who are good and come back to me when I call them but the smaller one is scared of everything, (she gets so frightened if a child runs up to her she wees:o) I was walking into an area that normally has some dog walkers so I kept them both on the lead and was checking if there were any loose dogs in the area (both of mine* tend to avoid running up to other dogs) if there weren't dogs about both of them would have gone off the lead, one ignores other dogs and the little one avoids them. Before I could do anything two average/large sized dogs come running around the corner and up to them to play. My dogs got the fright of there lives the little one ran behind me and promptly píssed herself the other one tried running the other way. I don't remember my dogs growling I do remember them yelping, barking and howling. I couldn't do a damn thing because if I tried to separate them the other two dogs would just switch around and I'd be at square one again but, the thing was while the bigger dogs were trying to play my ones were terrified and started snapping at the bigger dogs to get them to go away. The worst thing for what felt like ages the owner of the other dogs seemed to be nowhere in sight and all I could do was stand there and try to get untangled from the leads (my two were trying to run away from the other dogs, while snapping, barking, howling and yelping)

By the time the owner did call the other two dogs off (which she should have done at least as soon as she heard my dogs making noise) my ones were shaking with the fright and only because she had called the dogs from a distance and walked away as soon as she did she would have got an earful off of me. I didn't want to put the my two under the stress of being near her two dogs so I left it but, if one of mine had of injured her dogs and she wanted me/the owners to pay, I would have told her it was entirly her fault she should have been looking after/watching her dogs and she was the one that put my dogs in danger, in not so nice a way as that (and I know the owners would probably say worse)

At the time I had to kneel down (on wet grass) both to calm the dogs and check if they had injories, which thankfully they didn't. Thinking about it that's actually the last time I walked them, I was frightened for ages after that, that it might have turned them a bit wicked to other dogs, it just made both afraid of bigger dogs (and I had Sam-not the little one- so well socialised, she didn't care about other dogs, the little one was got at a slightly later stage in life and never got a chance to get used to other dogs)

I do think you should take more responibility than 'Part' or 'some' you weren't paying attention, you let your dog run up to another unknown dog, you didn't/couldn't call him away. (Just thinking I don't mean to sound like I'm giving out to you over it, and you should be upset, I would be too but I don't think you should be blaming her for doing nothing) I think you should just own up and say, yes there are lots of things I could have done to prevent this happening (the woman could have done something too but I think the responibility really fell on you because it was your dog which was off lead) learn from the mistakes, vow it will never happen again and lastly (also what might be the reason your only taking 'some' responsibility) take in the guilt, tell your dog your sorry, give it lots of treats and cuddles and let go of the guilt.

*I say mine but there not really mine I just walk them and look after them when the owners are away

Whispered · 27-12-2009 10:35am

jen_23 wrote: »

I will use whatever word I want to describe a vicous dog attacking mine!

yes and using a term commonly used to describe my dog and many many others as an insult is going to get people annoyed, and they are going to react to that. This is getting childish now. "I'll do what I want" :rolleyes:

jen_23 wrote: »

Well you know what there are a lot of half wit people having children in this country considering the amount of 'unsupervised' children that come over rubbing Gunnar while there parents are pre-occupied! I having half a brain have to tell these children to ask to rub him. Not because he is vicious but because potentially the next dog might be.

What has this to do with anything? You asked me what I would do if my dog bit a child. I answered you by saying that if a child was allowed approach my dog unsupervised I would think their parents, as you said, half-wits.

jen_23 wrote: »

She was in the wrong for standing idly by while her dog viciously attacked 2 dogs! He might have been a lead but there certainly was not any control over him.

She was in the wrong, but I'm pointing out that ultimately you where the person who had an offlead dog.

jen_23 wrote: »

Fear or no fear you atleast tighten the leash and at the very least say NO! How many people would stand there and do absolutely nothing?

Well Starpants mother for 1. I'm sure there are many people who might. A friend of mine loves her smaller dog, but is absolutely terrieifed of larger dogs, or dogs she doesn't know. To the point of it being annoying if we are out anywhere. I'd imagine she would freeze up also.

jen_23 wrote: »

As for the other 20 dogs I unfortunatly never conducted a survey.... so maybe some were... perhaps not.... How would I know?

No need for the sarcasm, you brought up the fact that there were 20 other dogs. I'm just wondering what your dog did that others didn't to get bitten.

Top Dog wrote: »

So you would NEVER call a bloke that upset you a bastard or a woman who upset you a bitch? Regardless of whether or not its 100% accurate?

well there is a difference, she called the dog a mongrel. Not a bitch etc. She used a description of a mixed breed dog to insult it. If you want to start humanising it, you could compare it to a racial slur. (I'm not suggesting it, but I think it would be a more accurate humanisation than other swears)

Top Dog wrote: »

Try climbing down off your high horse for a min and realise that the girl was upset. She'd witnessed her dog being attacked, another dog being attacked, and afterwards see's there's a chunk missing from her dog's forehead. Surely its understandable that she's going to vent and the accuracy of that venting really shouldn't be scrutinised?

I can see she's upset, but the first post was ridiculously biased. This silly woman and her runt of a dog attacked my offlead dog after he approached. It looks like a nasty cut but a chunk of his head? Really? If it was a chunk of his head Jen would have had to bring him to the vet.

Top Dog wrote: »

But yes, I am suggesting that the person was wrong for walking her (obviously) dog-aggressive dog in a public place thats extremely well known to be a popular dog-walking spot. A place you can be 100% guaranteed to come across other dogs off-lead. If she wanted to walk there she should have had her dog muzzled. Unless she's a total blow-in to Cork city (in which case I doubt she'd have known about this location) then I fail to see how she has any reasonable excuse for not having her dog muzzled there.

If Gunnar & Ben were on a loose lead they could still have been attacked.

Again, many non agressive dogs will react that way if a strange, larger dog approaches and they have no way of getting away should they need to. It does sound like a particurlary nasty attack, but the other dog is not necessarily dog agressive. And as already pointed out, there where other offlead dogs around. What where other owners doing to avoid their dog being attacked?

Top Dog wrote: »

I don't disagree that you have better ability to control your dog on a lead. But I think the point that Jen is trying to make, and it would seem has been missed by a number of people, is that even if all our dogs were on lead this could still have happened. The real point to all this was the lack of reaction from the owner, and the verbal abuse she hurled at us afterwards.

Obviously that is wrong. But as Jen said, people say things in anger that come out ignorant and sounding very badly. The woman was likely to be furious to have been put into a position where her dog attacked despite her doing the responsible thing and having her dog on a lead. She was probably annoyed that some strangers, who allowed their dogs approach then kicked, hit and grabbed the dog by the legs to get him off. (a normal reaction btw, but still not nice for the other owner to see)

jen_23 wrote: »

That is very different.
1. You knew the dog
2. there wasn't an owner standing there doing nothing to pull her dog off... 2 dogs!
3. Your dog bit back. Mine yelped looking for the pain to stop!
4. You didn't blame everyone around you for your mistake

tudlytops wrote: »

If i have someone coming over with a pet, I know that 1 of my dogs is nervous so i will either muzzle him or keep him in another room.

it was sillyness on both our parts. The two have known each other since harley was 8 weeks old, but he's getting older now and I suppose my mams dog got sick of a big silly male dog running around his house and my dog got sick of being growled at every time he moved. It just came to a head. I think I will have to keep one crated in future. It's a pity really

SSssooooo annoyed!

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