Iraq placed third for failing to protect its citizens

anymore · 18-05-2010 11:52am #1

Given the amount of focus on the Middle east, I though that Iraq's third place, after Somalia and Darfur, on a Human Rights list of States failing to protect their citizens would feature as a thread.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0429/1224269287203.html

" The Minority Rights Group placed Iraqis third on a list of people most under threat, after Somalis and Darfuris and ahead of Afghans. The plight of Iraqi civilians was elaborated by Amnesty International in a 28-page report, Iraq: Civilians Under Fire, which blamed the largest number of fatalities on bombings mounted by the Sunni Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella grouping of local jihadi groups affiliated with al-Qaeda. "

Both Sunni and Shiite extremist groups are implicated in targeting civilians outside of their own reliious groups and even in within their religous groups, " Women and girls are compelled to wear the hijab (headscarf), women are killed by relatives and militiamen for violating strict codes of behaviour and gay men for their sexual orientation. Human rights defenders, women’s rights campaigners, journalists and political activists are abducted and murdered.
The previous paragraph perhaps should be read in conjunction with the two threads which have run concerning Burqas.
Why is there so little focus on human rights abuses in countries like Iraq both in the Irish media and on sites like Boards ?
Do some Human Rights abuses not count ? Where are the Dail Committee on these abuses /
How many trips to Iraq has Minister Martin Made ? Where are all the outraged letters to the Irish Times from the ' Arts and Culture ' representatives ?

Nodin · 18-05-2010 12:41pm

.....because nobody doubts or disagrees that these abuses go on. Well, 99% of people don't - theres always one.

Jonny7 · 18-05-2010 1:01pm

No one really cares

Those who supported the invasion and subsequent actions have either given up on Iraq to focus on something else, i.e. Iran, or they just grimly hang on to strange preconceptions that Iraq was full of Al Qaeda already and that in fact Iraqi's just want to murder each other.

Those who were against all this are just tired of hearing **** news from Iraq.

Everyone else is just ignorant and wants to hear about Lady Gaga.

Unless you have video footage of some atrocity in some situation that can be resolved in some easy quick emotional way then these statistics will be shovelled into the mountain of ignored statistics from Amnesty, Red Cross, etc.

Manic Moran · 18-05-2010 7:15pm

anymore wrote: »

Given the amount of focus on the Middle east, I though that Iraq's third place, after Somalia and Darfur, on a Human Rights list of States failing to protect their citizens would feature as a thread.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0429/1224269287203.html

Why is there so little focus on human rights abuses in countries like Iraq both in the Irish media and on sites like Boards ?

There is a bit of a conflict going on. I'd wager the Iraqi authorities' first order of business is to get the people to stop killing each other in tit-for-tat sectarian clashes. Intra-sectarian stuff like the underlined just isn't making the radar yet.

NTM

Cookie_Monster · 19-05-2010 2:28pm

Nothing about the tens of thousands of civilians killed by US and other forces to date, how exactly are the Iraqis supposed to even try and stop that?

anymore · 19-05-2010 2:58pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Nothing about the tens of thousands of civilians killed by US and other forces to date, how exactly are the Iraqis supposed to even try and stop that?

The US is very anxious to withdraw from Iraq - the reality is that the bulk of the 100,000 plus killed have been killed fellow iraqis and co religionists.
The death scale here makes the death toll in palestine seem very small, but as can be seen by number of posts here, one death caused by an israeli .seems to be the moral equivvalent of 100 killed by others in ME.

Tech3 · 20-05-2010 1:04am

anymore wrote: »

The US is very anxious to withdraw from Iraq

Probably as the have secured oil that will make them billions in the future. Iraqi people are angry and would it be hard to blame them. Bush the clown ordered the invasion of Iraq for money and to take the pressure off him at the time. No WOMD was hardly a suprise. The country is crippled not surprising to see it ranked 3rd on the list.

Manic Moran · 20-05-2010 7:57am

tech2 wrote: »

Probably as the have secured oil that will make them billions in the future.

They have? Last I checked, the contracts went to Russian, Chinese and French consortia.

NTM

Cookie_Monster · 20-05-2010 10:13am

Manic Moran wrote: »

They have? Last I checked, the contracts went to Russian, Chinese and French consortia.

NTM

to sell to America no doubt.

The object was securing the supply, thats what has happened. just because they don't own it doesn't mean they haven't secured buying rights

smurgen · 20-05-2010 10:33am

and what about all the other contracts american companies in Iraq have won such as Haliburton?

smurgen · 20-05-2010 10:44am

Manic Moran wrote: »

They have? Last I checked, the contracts went to Russian, Chinese and French consortia.

NTM

wrong!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/6509767/Shell-and-ExxonMobil-win-Iraq-oil-field-deal.html

anymore · 20-05-2010 11:01am

tech2 wrote: »

Probably as the have secured oil that will make them billions in the future. Iraqi people are angry and would it be hard to blame them. Bush the clown ordered the invasion of Iraq for money and to take the pressure off him at the time. No WOMD was hardly a suprise. The country is crippled not surprising to see it ranked 3rd on the list.

Somewhat amusing to see a moderator for the 'Infrastructure' section saying " Probably as the have secured oil that will make them billions " I would at least have expected you to understand that Irleland is as dependent on imorted oil as the US - in fact we are toatlly dependent on imported oil. If the US takes action to protect ME oil supplies, it does so on our behalf as well.
The slaughter that followed the successful toppling of the mass murderer Saddam was not the fault of the US. The US made grevious mistakes in the terms of post war planning, but the slaugher is entierly the responsibility of the various Islamic groups.
Bush it should be poointed was elected on the basis of reducing US military committments around the world. - It was not his fault that the an Islamic terrorist organisation chose to launch a mass murder attack on the US.

Nodin · 20-05-2010 1:11pm

anymore wrote: »

- It was not his fault that the an Islamic terrorist organisation chose to launch a mass murder attack on the US.

...whats that got to do with Iraq, exactly?

Tech3 · 20-05-2010 3:00pm

anymore wrote: »

Somewhat amusing to see a moderator for the 'Infrastructure' section saying " Probably as the have secured oil that will make them billions " I would at least have expected you to understand that Irleland is as dependent on imorted oil as the US - in fact we are toatlly dependent on imported oil.

Irrelevant to the point I was making. What has this got to do with Ireland? Did we support the invasion? No.

The slaughter that followed the successful toppling of the mass murderer Saddam was not the fault of the US.

No? See this:

The US military has confirmed the authenticity of newly released video showing US forces indiscriminately firing on Iraqi civilians. On Monday, the website WikiLeaks.org posted footage taken from a US military helicopter in July 2007 as it killed twelve people and wounded two children. The dead included two employees of the Reuters news agency, photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen and driver Saeed Chmagh. We speak with WikiLeaks co-founder Julian Assange and Salon.com blogger Glenn Greenwald.

sdanseo · 20-05-2010 6:50pm

anymore wrote: »

Given the amount of focus on the Middle east, I though that Iraq's third place, after Somalia and Darfur, on a Human Rights list of States failing to protect their citizens would feature as a thread.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0429/1224269287203.html

" The Minority Rights Group placed Iraqis third on a list of people most under threat, after Somalis and Darfuris and ahead of Afghans. The plight of Iraqi civilians was elaborated by Amnesty International in a 28-page report, Iraq: Civilians Under Fire, which blamed the largest number of fatalities on bombings mounted by the Sunni Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella grouping of local jihadi groups affiliated with al-Qaeda. "

Both Sunni and Shiite extremist groups are implicated in targeting civilians outside of their own reliious groups and even in within their religous groups, " Women and girls are compelled to wear the hijab (headscarf), women are killed by relatives and militiamen for violating strict codes of behaviour and gay men for their sexual orientation. Human rights defenders, women’s rights campaigners, journalists and political activists are abducted and murdered.
The previous paragraph perhaps should be read in conjunction with the two threads which have run concerning Burqas.
Why is there so little focus on human rights abuses in countries like Iraq both in the Irish media and on sites like Boards ?
Do some Human Rights abuses not count ? Where are the Dail Committee on these abuses /
How many trips to Iraq has Minister Martin Made ? Where are all the outraged letters to the Irish Times from the ' Arts and Culture ' representatives ?

Please for the sake of my sanity explain to me why we, a neutral country, should have something as high up as a Dáil committee on the domestic issues of a country thousands of miles away that has absolutely nothing to do with us, and which is already being trampled all over by the government of the US? It took years to get a Dáil Committee on abuses of Irish citizens!

I'd like Mícheál Martin to concentrate on fixing our economic standing and working with Brian Lenihan (or preferably, for them to give us the oppertunity to let someone less incompetent do the job) and the EU for the minute as well as improving relations with other countries. Not that I don't care - but there is little or anything we can do other than make representations to the US, UK and UN. Maybe pecekeepers down the line but I wouldn't send an Irish soldier to Iraq anytime soon - I'd like them to come back, you see.

anymore · 21-05-2010 12:36pm

sdonn wrote: »

Please for the sake of my sanity explain to me why we, a neutral country, should have something as high up as a Dáil committee on the domestic issues of a country thousands of miles away that has absolutely nothing to do with us, and which is already being trampled all over by the government of the US? It took years to get a Dáil Committee on abuses of Irish citizens!

I'd like Mícheál Martin to concentrate on fixing our economic standing and working with Brian Lenihan (or preferably, for them to give us the oppertunity to let someone less incompetent do the job) and the EU for the minute as well as improving relations with other countries. Not that I don't care - but there is little or anything we can do other than make representations to the US, UK and UN. Maybe pecekeepers down the line but I wouldn't send an Irish soldier to Iraq anytime soon - I'd like them to come back, you see.

I absolutely agree with you about irish politicians concentrating on Ireland and trs problems. So why on earth did an Irish dail Committee recall itself early from its long Christmas holidys to have an emergency meeting about Gaza ?
Why has Minister Martin made so many trips to Israel/ Palestine and so few if any to the much greater humanitarian disaster that is Iraq ?
Part of the answer is i suspect the barely veiled anti - semitism that is part of the irish condition - pershaps we are still punishing the Jews for " killing Jesus" !

anymore · 21-05-2010 12:44pm

tech2 wrote: »

Irrelevant to the point I was making. What has this got to do with Ireland? Did we support the invasion? No.

No? See this:

Did we support the invasion ?

Again I must say that as a moderator for the infrastructure section I would have thought you were well aware that we provided the infrastructural support, for the invasion. As you must know Shannon airport was an important transit point for US troops and material for the invasion It was also used as a transit point for the illegal transport of civilians kidnapped for transport to third world torture prison and for delivery to Guantanamoo.
Did Ireland support the invasion ? We were a vital part of it.
I presume that as one intersted in technology and infrastrucrure, that you are aware that an irish company has provided software for the US's drones.
So you tell me, did Irleand play its part in the invasion of iraq ?

sdanseo · 21-05-2010 6:22pm

anymore wrote: »

Did we support the invasion ?
Again I must say that as a moderator for the infrastructure section I would have thought you were well aware that we provided the infrastructural support, for the invasion. As you must know Shannon airport was an important transit point for US troops and material for the invasion It was also used as a transit point for the illegal transport of civilians kidnapped for transport to third world torture prison and for delivery to Guantanamoo.
Did Ireland support the invasion ? We were a vital part of it.
I presume that as one intersted in technology and infrastrucrure, that you are aware that an irish company has provided software for the US's drones.
So you tell me, did Irleand play its part in the invasion of iraq ?

In fairness, they shipped the troops through on civilian flights, not military ones. We can't very well start turning civilian planes away from Shannon. All we could have done was request that they don't use it in the strongest possible terms - and the US have helped us a lot recently in terms of moderating the North a bit so it'd be a kick in the teeth to them. Not something you want to do the most powerful nation on the planet really. Also a ton of jobs rely on the US presence in Ireland in the form of multinationals - any less support from them would be catastrophic.

Tech3 · 21-05-2010 11:17pm

anymore wrote: »

As you must know Shannon airport was an important transit point for US troops and material for the invasion It was also used as a transit point for the illegal transport of civilians kidnapped for transport to third world torture prison and for delivery to Guantanamoo..

Yes of course I'm fully aware that Shannon airport was a transit point. Could you give me the relevant links though to back up the rest of your statement which is highlighted in bold.

I presume that as one intersted in technology and infrastrucrure, that you are aware that an irish company has provided software for the US's drones.
So you tell me, did Irleand play its part in the invasion of iraq

The thread is about Iraq protecting it's citzens, nothing to do with Irelands involvment in the invasion. I dont want to drag the thread more off-topic than it has already.

anymore · 22-05-2010 11:02am

sdonn wrote: »

In fairness, they shipped the troops through on civilian flights, not military ones. We can't very well start turning civilian planes away from Shannon. All we could have done was request that they don't use it in the strongest possible terms - and the US have helped us a lot recently in terms of moderating the North a bit so it'd be a kick in the teeth to them. Not something you want to do the most powerful nation on the planet really. Also a ton of jobs rely on the US presence in Ireland in the form of multinationals - any less support from them would be catastrophic.

Ireland is a Sovereign State ! The Government has total control over what planes can land at out airports.
The US could not and would not transport its military thorugh Irish airports without the specific permission of the Irish Government- Obama specificially thanked the Government for allowing his military to use Shannon. Irleand is part of the Willing '
You are right to say there are many reasons for ireland to support the US, but that only re-inforces the fact that irleand was a vital part of the invasion of IRaq. We are not a neutral country - we are an ally of the US.

anymore · 22-05-2010 11:08am

tech2 wrote: »

Yes of course I'm fully aware that Shannon airport was a transit point. Could you give me the relevant links though to back up the rest of your statement which is highlighted in bold.

The thread is about Iraq protecting it's citzens, nothing to do with Irelands involvment in the invasion. I dont want to drag the thread more off-topic than it has already.

Are you the rejecting the commonly known and accepted fact that Shannon was a major transit point for CIA ' detainees' ?
Various irish groups can actaully provide the designation numbers of thew CIA planes that have used Shhon - I am was assuming with your interst in infrastructure that you would have been aware of this.

AS for for the subject matter of the thread, many of the Anti US posters have told me repeatedly that it was the US invasion that is actually responsible for the religous civil war that has seen over 100,000 Iraqis killed and ethnic cleansing enforced in many areas of Iraq. I know it is difficult to see the logic in this, but what can I say ?

A Primal Nut · 22-05-2010 11:12am

anymore wrote: »

Given the amount of focus on the Middle east, I though that Iraq's third place, after Somalia and Darfur, on a Human Rights list of States failing to protect their citizens would feature as a thread.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0429/1224269287203.html

" The Minority Rights Group placed Iraqis third on a list of people most under threat, after Somalis and Darfuris and ahead of Afghans. The plight of Iraqi civilians was elaborated by Amnesty International in a 28-page report, Iraq: Civilians Under Fire, which blamed the largest number of fatalities on bombings mounted by the Sunni Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella grouping of local jihadi groups affiliated with al-Qaeda. "

Both Sunni and Shiite extremist groups are implicated in targeting civilians outside of their own reliious groups and even in within their religous groups, " Women and girls are compelled to wear the hijab (headscarf), women are killed by relatives and militiamen for violating strict codes of behaviour and gay men for their sexual orientation. Human rights defenders, women’s rights campaigners, journalists and political activists are abducted and murdered.
The previous paragraph perhaps should be read in conjunction with the two threads which have run concerning Burqas.
Why is there so little focus on human rights abuses in countries like Iraq both in the Irish media and on sites like Boards ?
Do some Human Rights abuses not count ? Where are the Dail Committee on these abuses /
How many trips to Iraq has Minister Martin Made ? Where are all the outraged letters to the Irish Times from the ' Arts and Culture ' representatives ?

Are you serious? Iraq is always on the news. Its well known Islamic Fundamentalists commit horrific abuse on Iraqi Citizens and foreigners living there.

You honestly thought homosexuals and women had total freedom there before you read that article.

anymore · 22-05-2010 11:16am

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Are you serious? Iraq is always on the news. Its well known Islamic Fundamentalists commit horrific abuse on Iraqi Citizens and foreigners living there.

You honestly thought homosexuals and women had total freedom there before you read that article.

Yes indeed i was aware of these various abuses and I have highlighted them in threads - it was made clear on the Ban the Burqua thread that sanctions would follow the ' Clouding of isssues' by mentioniong some of these issues.

Iraq placed third for failing to protect its citizens

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