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US Healthcare - unbelievable!

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  • 15-05-2010 11:23pm
    #1
    loldog
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭


    Just looking at social sites you encounter from time to time everyday stories of US citizens and what happens to them when they get ill. It sounds barbarous to someone like me who grew up with state healthcare.

    Take for example this story:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/c4et2/iama_34_year_old_mother_of_a_3_year_old_little/

    and a comment from someone in response:
    My son was the same way. He got injured on the job, got short term disability, got let go because he wasn't on the job, lost his insurance, and now he's in pain with no medicine and unable to get a job because he cannot be on his feet for more than 20 minutes without some operations, physical therapy, or pain meds.

    So, the question is, are we just too mollycoddled in Europe? Can we afford to continue providing our levels of healthcare? Will we end up like the situation in the US? it scares me to read these stories.

    .


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    #2
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    loldog wrote: »
    So, the question is, are we just too mollycoddled in Europe?
    No, America should be like us not the other way around.
    loldog wrote: »
    Can we afford to continue providing our levels of healthcare?
    As long as people pay their tax then yes.
    loldog wrote: »
    Will we end up like the situation in the US? it scares me to read these stories.
    No, different political culture. America cares more about the insurance company then the person. Europe is the opposite.


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    #3
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    I broke my leg skiing in Canada (which is actually better then America for medical).

    They demanded 1750 canadian dollars even though I was showing them insurance papers worth 12 Million C$.

    When I couldn't produce a credit card, they took me out of the ambulance and left me on a stretcher in the ski resort car park, high off my head on morpheine.


    yeah. :eek:

    DeV.
    (I phoned my brother in law at home in the middle of the night and got his CC and they put me back in the ambulance... its a hell of a sales technique!)


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    #4
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    And socialized medicine has really worked in Ireland:rolleyes:


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    #5
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    And socialized medicine has really worked in Ireland:rolleyes:
    It has worked. Ireland has an extremely low infant mortality rate of 5.05 deaths/1,000 live births according to ther cia.
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html


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    #6
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It has worked. Ireland has an extremely low infant mortality rate of 5.05 deaths/1,000 live births according to ther cia.
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

    How about all the over staffed pen pushing administrators, nurses and middle managers, would that I condoned in a private healthcare system, Ithink not.


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    #7
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    How about all the over staffed pen pushing administrators, nurses and middle managers, would that I condoned in a private healthcare system, Ithink not.
    You compleatly ignored my point that Ireland has one of the best health care systems in the world. But let's look at America where the majority of people are not covered by medicare and must buy insurance shall we ?

    Americas infant morality rate is 6.22 deaths/1,000 live births they are in 180th place out of 224 countries !
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

    Oh and for the record not all pen pushers are useless, obviously we need someone to keep the books.


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    #8
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You compleatly ignored my point that Ireland has one of the best health care systems in the world. But let's look at America where the majority of people are not covered by medicare and must buy insurance shall we ?

    Americas infant morality rate is 6.22 deaths/1,000 live births they are in 180th place out of 224 countries !
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

    Oh and for the record not all pen pushers are useless, obviously we need someone to keep the books.

    I never said all pen pushers were useless, all I said that the HSE is overstaffed with administrators, don't even get me started on the demarcation trade union work practices that exist in the HSE.


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    #9
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You compleatly ignored my point that Ireland has one of the best health care systems in the world.

    woah woah woah

    please before anything else is said provide a link to prove that


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    #10
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    I never said all pen pushers were useless, all I said that the HSE is overstaffed with administrators, don't even get me started on the demarcation trade union work practices that exist in the HSE.
    Regardless I prefare to let the statistics speak for themselves and the statistics say Ireland isn't all that badly of with regards to health care.

    Although I agree with you on the Union hating front...


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    #11
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Regardless I prefare to let the statistics speak for themselves and the statistics say Ireland isn't all that badly of with regards to health care.

    Although I agree with you on the Union hating front...

    No healthcare system is perfect and Ireland's health system is no exception to that rule, however, I firmly believe that private health care is far more efficient than statist health care in Ireland, for instance in the public system you can't even get an xray at weekends where it is available in the private system, that is ridicoulous.


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    #12
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    No healthcare system is perfect and Ireland's health system is no exception to that rule, however, I firmly believe that private health care is far more efficient than statist health care in Ireland, for instance in the public system you can't even get an xray at weekends where it is available in the private system, that is ridicoulous.
    Do you think that could perhaps be because private hospitals have more money ?


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    #13
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Do you think that could perhaps be because private hospitals have more money ?

    It might be because there are more flexible work practices in the private health system, also most private hosiptals aren't over staffed.


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    #14
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Do you think that could perhaps be because private hospitals have more money ?

    or because private hospitals need to make money and cant jsut decide to go home on fridays cause their unions wont let them work the weekend with triple pay or some such ridicolous demand

    or because the unions have inflated the prices so much that we simply cant afford to pay for the two extra days care?

    so no link to show ireland is one of the best healthcare systems in the world?


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    #15
    rubensni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭rubensni


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    woah woah woah

    please before anything else is said provide a link to prove that


    Our system isn't that bad by international comparison. Nobody here is happy with it, because we all can see ways it can be improved. Don't come after me as some defender of Harney, because believe me I'm anything but.

    We spend relatively little on health care: 7.5% of GDP in 2007. Compare that to the US, who as a percentage, spend twice as much as we do on healthcare (16% of GDP) but get lower results than us in average life expectancy and infant mortality.
    Even when compared to other European countries we're misers: Austria, Belgium, France, Germany and Switzerland all spent over 10% of GDP on healthcare in 2007.


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    #16
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    rubensni wrote: »
    Our system isn't that bad by international comparison. Nobody here is happy with it, because we all can see ways it can be improved. Don't come after me as some defender of Harney, because believe me I'm anything but.

    We spend relatively little on health care: 7.5% of GDP in 2007. Compare that to the US, who as a percentage, spend twice as much as we do on healthcare (16% of GDP) but get lower results than us in average life expectancy and infant mortality.
    Even when compared to other European countries we're misers: Austria, Belgium, France, Germany and Switzerland all spent over 10% of GDP on healthcare in 2007.

    The government has tripled healthcare spending since 1997 and yet there has been no improvement in the health service, throwing money at the healthsystem is not the solution to problems in the health service, privatsiation is the way to go. At least then there would be more flexible work practices where the health service is run for the customer not the trade unions.


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    #17
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    rubensni wrote: »
    Our system isn't that bad by international comparison. Nobody here is happy with it, because we all can see ways it can be improved. Don't come after me as some defender of Harney, because believe me I'm anything but.

    i dont think we have particularly bad system i just dont believe its one of the best in the world or near it...at all


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    #18
    rubensni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭rubensni


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    The government has tripled healthcare spending since 1997 and yet there has been no improvement in the health service, throwing money at the healthsystem is not the solution to problems in the health service, privatsiation is the way to go. At least then there would be more flexible work practices where the health service is run for the customer not the trade unions.

    Healthcare has improved since 1997 because life expectancy has risen sharply and infant mortality has declined since then.

    As for your privatise argument, nowhere in the world has a "privatised" system. In Ireland, 80% of the healthcare money comes from the state. That is high, but even in the most "privatised" systems over half the money still comes from government.

    In both the US and Mexico over 40% of money spent on healthcare comes from private citizens, but both have lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than Ireland.


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    #19
    rubensni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭rubensni


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    i dont think we have particularly bad system i just dont believe its one of the best in the world or near it...at all

    :confused: How do you rank it? I've left out obesity rates, vaccination rates, and smoking rates. Now, Ireland scores badly in all of them, but I left them out as I don't think they fit in with what is being debated here - healthcare as meaning ambulances and hospitals as opposed to a holistic "health of the population" comparison.

    At the end of the day no comparison is perfect, but I'd take my chances here ahead of 90% of the countries in the world. It could be a lot better, but it's not that bad where we are now.


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    #20
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    The US spends around $6k per person on healthcare and has a much lower lower life expectancy than France (spends around $3k pp) and the UK ($2.5k) If I remember rightly, France's system is ranked as the most consumer friendly in the world.

    Source; Paul Krugman, The Healthcare Imperative.

    Don't blame it all on statism. Labour called for universal health insurance and was told by the government it would cost too much. Instead, the HSE was brought it. We certainly don't have a great healthcare system but I'd say overall it's much better than the US as everyone has access.


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    #21
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    The government has tripled healthcare spending since 1997 and yet there has been no improvement in the health service, throwing money at the healthsystem is not the solution to problems in the health service, privatsiation is the way to go. At least then there would be more flexible work practices where the health service is run for the customer not the trade unions.

    They are called patients not customers. Private heath care such as that in America has proven to be a disaster for the less well off. There is a thing in medicine called the hypocratic oath. It is a violation of that oath and of any human decency to turn away a person from a hospital just cause they cannot pay for their treatment.


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    #22
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    They are called patients not customers. Private heath care such as that in America has proven to be a disaster for the less well off. There is a thing in medicine called the hypocratic oath. It is a violation of that oath and of any human decency to turn away a person from a hospital just cause they cannot pay for their treatment.

    I do believe that health insurance should be provided in cases of catostrophic illness, i don't have a problem with that, Milton Friedman believed that health insurance should be provided in cases of actostophic, however, you are letting emotional sentiment get in the way of hard nosed financial reality.


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    #23
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    And socialized medicine has really worked in Ireland:rolleyes:
    Socialized medicine? You're having a laugh! Our health care system is nowhere near 'socialized'

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #24
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Socialized medicine? You're having a laugh! Our health care system is nowhere near 'socialized'

    The clue is in his name ;)


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    #25
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    It might be because there are more flexible work practices in the private health system, also most private hosiptals aren't over staffed.

    aint that the truth , i recentley underwent a minor proceedure in a private clinic in dublin , to my surprise , i not only witnessed nurses serveing toast and tea to patients , i witnessed them push beds down to theatre and back up to wards , that didnt happen anytime i stayed in a public hospital , mr janitor and miss nurses attendeant had thier time to shine


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    #26
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    aint that the truth , i recentley underwent a minor proceedure in a private clinic in dublin , to my surprise , i not only witnessed nurses serve toast and tea to patients , i witnessed them push beds down to theatre and back up to wards , that didnt happen anytime i stayed in a public hospital

    I hope your now in fine health:), actually my mothers next door neighbour had to get her appendix removed in a private hospital in Dublin, her eyes nearly oppoed out of her head in pleasant surpirise when she was handed a lunch and dinner menu with the vaiety of option available, she only asked for toast and she ws told that due to health and safety regulations the hospital wasn't allowed to have a toaster but apart from that which was no fault of the hospital she was superbly treated and the nurses treated her like a customer and she has recomended this particular hospital to friends who find themselves in the unfortunate position of having to undergo a medical precedure.

    Jaysus nurses pushing beds to theatres and back to wards, what would the INMO be thinking, they must expel any union members who are there to help patients:rolleyes:


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    #27
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    And socialized medicine has really worked in Ireland:rolleyes:

    Nice Fox buzzword, the US has "socialised" medicine in medicare. The problem in the US is accessabilty and affordability if you get shafted by an insurance company. But I agree to an extent, Irish people can't mock another countries health care system.


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    #28
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    rubensni wrote: »
    In both the US and Mexico over 40% of money spent on healthcare comes from private citizens, but both have lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than Ireland.

    Though an interesting statistic, depending on how it's calculated, you can't assume it's automatically a function of the healthcare system. For example, the death rate from traffic accidents is 50% higher in the US than it is in Ireland: Americans are dependant on the automobile, and, frankly, drive like idiots. Not the fault of the healthcare system, and I don't care how good your system is, breathing Los Angeles smog cannot be good for your long term prospects. Similarly, as a nation with lots of swimming pools and nice warm beaches, the death rate from drowning is seven times higher than that of the UK. The death rate from wild animals in the US is, I believe, pretty near to infinitely higher than that of Ireland: When's the last time an Irish five-month-old was taken by a bear? We're even fighting more wars, with more people killed in military training accidents. When you have people living in the Nebraska countryside where an ambulance will take nearly an hour just to get to you, people will be dying who might otherwise be saved in Ireland where most ambulances aren't more than a half-hour away.

    If the infant mortality rate is simply 'Number of kids who make it to age 3 divided by number of kids born', or the life expectancy is simply 'sum of all ages of people when they died divided by the number of people in the sample', then even if the healthcare systems were identical, the US would come out the worse for the comparison.

    NTM


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    #29
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    But death rates in the US are fairly low, behind even the UK, France, Norway and Spain.

    Despite this, they have a lower life expectancy than all of these countries.


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    #30
    Gigiwagga
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Gigiwagga


    Harney is all for following the American model as opposed to the general european model unfortunately, we 're all *****d.


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    #31
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    But death rates in the US are fairly low, behind even the UK, France, Norway and Spain.

    As the preface to that table points out, it's pretty raw data which cannot really lead to any conclusions. For example, age distribution is critical: If the US has a younger population than the other countries, drawing such a conclusion is useless.
    NTM


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