Turkish jets bomb Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq

Nodin wrote: »

Indeed. Additionally, theres scant chance they flew into Iraqi airpsace without US clearance. It must be ok to kill Kurds again, now their usefulness has expired.

Do you know that there were dozens of soldiers killed in the past week.
Turkey pays final respects to slain soldiers
Mine explosion kills one soldier in hakkari
And many more last month and month before. Unfortunately none of these makes to BBC headlines :rolleyes:

Here is another one won't make to BBC headlines:

Iran hangs 5 members of Pjak for bombings
PJAK = Iranian version of PKK .

Did Israel ask for clerance from anyone while bombing Gaza, Lebanon for weeks? Turkey does not need clearance from US or Iraq. Both knows the areas Turkey bombs. Do not forget US is a country that invades other countries thinking there are terorists in them .

halkar wrote: »

Did Israel ask for clerance from anyone while bombing Gaza, Lebanon for weeks? Turkey does not need clearance from US or Iraq. Both knows the areas Turkey bombs. Do not forget US is a country that invades other countries thinking there are terorists in them .

Turkey would need clearance from the US, or at least its active complicity.

Just because Israel kills a bunch of innocent people, does not make it right for Turkey to do the same thing in Iraq.

gurramok wrote: »

It is sorta odd that the EU which proclaims its equality rights for all agenda would have ascession talks with a country which persecutes its own citizens and sends bombers over to another country.

Well, to be fair EU member countries are guilty of bombing other countries, for dubious reasons. So there are hardly in a position to complain about that. Also, nowaday, you just have to claim to be fighting terrorism, and you can pretty much do as you like sadly.

Now, last I checked Turkey would need to change there Anti-Kurdish laws, to be let into the EU. So, if EU membership resulted in Turkey confirming to EU norms on rights of minorities etc, I would see that as a good thing. Of course, they should not be let in if they don't meet the criteria, and is if they even want in now, after the all the economic problems we have had in the EU lately.

halkar wrote: »

What anti Kurdish laws? There are anti terrorism laws which if you read the cases from previous link you will see all cases related to these laws. Also if you read the links about journalists you will see that they work for the Kurdish paper, that is published in Turkey in Kurdish language. There are many local and national papers like these as well as radio and tv channels in Kurdish language. Many Kurds also talk Kurdish in street with government started including Kurdish language in their offices. It is not perfect but there are many positive steps improving Kurdish minorities in Turkey.

Universal Periodic Review: Turkey

--SNIP--
At the time of writing, the pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party (DTP), which has 20 members in parliament, is faced with a closure case pending before the Constitutional Court for alleged separatist activities. The case has been pending since November 2007. Turkey's legislation governing political parties has come under international criticism; in March 2009 the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe published its opinion on the matter, finding that articles 68 and 69 of the constitution and provisions of the Law on Political Parties are together incompatible with article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights (right to freedom of assembly and association).

Prosecutions of DTP parliamentarians (at the time of writing denied parliamentary immunity), DTP mayors, and party officials for such offenses as "making propaganda for the PKK [Kurdistan Workers' Party]" and "praising crimes and criminals" run into the hundreds, with a regular pattern of convictions. At least 64 DTP officials are currently in pre-trial detention pending trial for alleged connections with the PKK.
--SNIP--

The above counts as anti-kurdish imho.

Also, Anti-terrorism laws, tend to be a good excuse to discriminate against people.

halkar wrote: »

How many Kurdish civilians were killed by Turkish troops this year? How many Turkish soldiers were killed by PKK this year? Google is your friend, put in "turkish soldiers killed pkk 2010 " and start counting. You will hardly find any link for BBC though.

Killing a soldier and civilian are 2 different things.

halkar wrote: »

Both US, Iraq and Kurdistan Authority have knowledge of these latest bombing which came after a year of the last bombings. Mainly fueled by the increase attacks by PKK terrorist. Not only Turkey, Iran and Syria also have the same problem.

It should be noted that both Iran and Syria also discriminate against the Kurds. Also, I never denied that the PKK engage in terrorism.

halkar wrote: »

Iraq and mainly the Kurdistan region becoming one of Turkey's main trade partners with yearly trade volumes have increased over $10 Billion dollars to none existence few years ago. Do you think Turkey, Iraq and Kurdistan will risk this for a bunch of outlaws that can not decide if they are Kurdish, Turkish or Iraqi? Or are there outside influence that does not really want stability in the region? Conspiracy or not this is how history worked in that region.

As per EU, I don't think Turkey give a toss about what EU think about Turkish-PKK issues. It is known and proven fact that there were and are a lot of support from EU countries for PKK.
Greek ministers quit over Ocalan
Roj TV
International Sources of Support for Pkk
Although not much of the last link applies to recent issues. Turkey have increased relationship with countries previously supported PKK such as Syria and Libya. Even visas have been lifted between these countries recently which was a milestone considering decade ago these were the countries where PKK trained. Strangely most of EU media does not even refer PKK as terrorist but call them rebels even though PKK is recognised as terrorist organisation. Almost every week there are Turkish soldiers killed in Turkey via ambushes or traps. Again none makes to the headlines in EU media.
List of designated terrorist organizations.

If the PKK are attacking the military, I fail to see how that is terrorism. I am not saying it is right, but I wouldn't consider people attacking a military to be terrorists.

halkar wrote: »

I am not saying life for Kurdish people in Turkey is perfect and Turkey does have many miles to go for improvements. I believe organizations such as PKK is not helping the Kurdish cause in Turkey. Kurds in Turkey hardly have any support for this organizations which also causes terror within Kurdish population in Turkey. After all there are around 20 million Kurds in Turkey. If the majority of these have support for PKK and whatever their cause is, Turkey would be in civil war now.

There are two sides to every coin. Flip few times to see the other side.

The only way for the PKK to survive is from local support, and as long as Turkey treats the Kurds they way they do, then this mess will continue.

Still, you are right there are 2 sides to this issue, but I don't see how bombing Northen Iraq, will help either side.

wes wrote: »

The above counts as anti-Kurdish imho.

Also, Anti-terrorism laws, tend to be a good excuse to discriminate against people.

DTP was not closed by current Turkish government nor by the Turkish army. They were closed by the courts after years of court cases against them. Most of the party members just formed a new party and back to business again. If that is discrimination you can check for the headlines of the ruling party in and out of court cases over there with many threats for closures, bans. Their current prime minister and president often had cases logged in for them on their Islamic agendas. Unfortunately there are laws and rules even the ruling political parties cannot bend. Current government also working on changes in laws that will make party closures more difficult. There have been Kurdish president, prime minister, many ministers and TDs in recent Turkish history. There are many positions held in national and regional governments by Kurdish people. There is nothing restricting Kurdish people to be part of society and they are part of society. Most are unfortunate due to regional development of their location in SE of Turkey. Again terrorism have been one of the main reasons for the lack of development. Current government recently announced almost 0% corporation taxes to these regions to attract business as well as providing infrastructure, land, security. Istanbul is highest Kurdish populated city in the world. Never heard of large scale Kurdish protests there other than usual yearly protests for Ocalan (captured PKK leader) by few.

wes wrote: »

Killing a soldier and civilian are 2 different things.

They are different things alright. Except when Turkish army kill Pkk members they are often classed as civilian or as most western media call rebels not terrorists. PKK also have suicide bombers in their disposal luckily often caught before catastrophe.

wes wrote: »

It should be noted that both Iran and Syria also discriminate against the Kurds. Also, I never denied that the PKK engage in terrorism.

Turkey came to brink of war with Syria several times over their support of PKK and PKK camps there. Only last few years with improved relations PKK have been outlawed there. Iran has their version of PKK called PJAK. They often shell the same locations as Turkey bombing today.

Kurds flee homes as Iran shells villages in Iraq

PJAK use same arguments as the PKK with their attacks in Iranian soils. Largest ethnic minority in Iran are Azeri Turks with about 25% of the population which they have no similar groups nor activities similar to PJAK terrorists. Kurds are about 7% of Iranian population. What does Azeris or other minorities like Turkmens, Arabs have special that Kurds does not have in Iran? Nothing, they all governed by the same government.
Likewise Alevis are the second largest minority in Turkey after Kurds with over 10 million. They are fighting for more religious freedom in Turkey as they practice Islam different than most Muslims do. But they have never resorted terrorism similar to PKK Kurds. There are also many other minorities with their own cases again no terrorism. It takes years and decades to make changes in large scale. Current Turkish government have been most successful as it is the only none coalition government for decades with the power to do so. Coalition governments have been disaster for Turkey's development due blockages by nationalistic parties. Will they succeed? Time will tell.

wes wrote: »

If the PKK are attacking the military, I fail to see how that is terrorism. I am not saying it is right, but I wouldn't consider people attacking a military to be terrorists.

Correct, they do mostly attack military but they also attack villages for supplies and force people for recruitment. Usual terrorist tactics. They have had many attacks on civilian with high dead tolls. PKK have been around for decades, this is not something that have started recently. It is a personal choice to call them, rebels, freedom fighters, good guys or terrorists.

wes wrote: »

The only way for the PKK to survive is from local support, and as long as Turkey treats the Kurds they way they do, then this mess will continue.

The only local support they have is in Northern Iraq. As I said earlier if they had the support of 20 million Kurds in Turkey, Turkey would be in chaos now.

wes wrote: »

Still, you are right there are 2 sides to this issue, but I don't see how bombing Northern Iraq, will help either side.

Bombing also criticized in Turkey as it will not achieve anything. Some also calls it bombing of rocks and trees as these areas are not inhabited. Intelligence is shared between Turkey, US, Iraq and local Kurdish government but as in most cases by the time Turkish airplanes reach to their targets the PKK goes to hiding in the caves. They also bomb these mountains via long range artillery almost daily as well as cross border skirmishes. They also considered building wall across Iraqi border but was binned due to harsh terrain conditions of the areas. It is a costly war with billions spend on every year. Current government trying to establish what they call open democracy to address all the minority issues. First time in the modern Turkish history they have the power to do so. Only recently they have submitted new laws for constitutional changes which will go on referendum in September. This will abolish many of the nationalistic laws that were formed during and after the last military coup in 1980. They were never challenged due to nationalistic parties in the coalition governments. Many in Turkey consider the constitutional referendum in September will be the turning point in modern Turkish history. It will be held on 12th of September same day as the last military coup in 1980.

Terrorism is terrorism be it in Turkey, Spain, US, Northern Ireland, Israel, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, be it religiously, nationalistically or personally motivated. Again it is a personal choice to call them, rebels, freedom fighters, good guys or terrorists. One truth about terrorists is support for them is always very little unless they have other governments behind them for their own national interests. Often they achieve nothing with bloodshed they cause.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

What policing are you talking about?

I am drawing attention to an off topic inflammatory comment, not in the context of the thread.

I have already said I have no interest in the topic, but it doesn't mean I will let comments like that go unchallenged.

I'd suggest saving your advice for those who might be interested.

This policing. Off-topic posts deleted, FlutterinBantam infracted.

There is no God-given right for people to attack what they feel to be wrong on irrelevant threads. A user who deliberately posts irrelevant inflammatory material will be infracted, but in this case the reasoning given of for wes' mention of Israel is both clear and cogent, and FlutterinBantam has no particular right to exercise his personal opinions to the detriment of other people's discussions.

Repeats of such behaviour will invite a ban of greater or lesser duration, as will any attempt to take advantage of this prohibition to post irrelevant inflammatory material.

moderately,
Scofflaw

halkar wrote: »

--SNIP--
DTP was not closed by current Turkish government nor by the Turkish army.
--SNIP--

From what i understand, it was closed due to them professing Kurdish nationalism.

halkar wrote: »

They are different things alright. Except when Turkish army kill Pkk members they are often classed as civilian or as most western media call rebels not terrorists. PKK also have suicide bombers in their disposal luckily often caught before catastrophe.

I have no reason to doubt media reports on the actions of the Turkish army, as many Human Rights orgs, say the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, I think the PKK should lay down there arm's and engage in peaceful means to achieve there goals, and I would expect at the same time, for the Turkish military to allow them to do so as well.

halkar wrote: »

Turkey came to brink of war with Syria several times over their support of PKK and PKK camps there. Only last few years with improved relations PKK have been outlawed there. Iran has their version of PKK called PJAK. They often shell the same locations as Turkey bombing today.

Kurds flee homes as Iran shells villages in Iraq

Yes, Iran treatment of minorities is pretty terrible as well.

halkar wrote: »

PJAK use same arguments as the PKK with their attacks in Iranian soils. Largest ethnic minority in Iran are Azeri Turks with about 25% of the population which they have no similar groups nor activities similar to PJAK terrorists. Kurds are about 7% of Iranian population. What does Azeris or other minorities like Turkmens, Arabs have special that Kurds does not have in Iran? Nothing, they all governed by the same government.

Balochi groups also engage in attacks in Iran. Look up Jundallah. So the Kurds are not the only minority in Iran fighting the state.

halkar wrote: »

Likewise Alevis are the second largest minority in Turkey after Kurds with over 10 million. They are fighting for more religious freedom in Turkey as they practice Islam different than most Muslims do. But they have never resorted terrorism similar to PKK Kurds. There are also many other minorities with their own cases again no terrorism. It takes years and decades to make changes in large scale. Current Turkish government have been most successful as it is the only none coalition government for decades with the power to do so. Coalition governments have been disaster for Turkey's development due blockages by nationalistic parties. Will they succeed? Time will tell.

From what i have read, the Kurds basically got screwed out of a country after World War 1, and hence more nationalist based violence. They also seem to get it worse than a lot of other groups.

halkar wrote: »

Correct, they do mostly attack military but they also attack villages for supplies and force people for recruitment. Usual terrorist tactics. They have had many attacks on civilian with high dead tolls. PKK have been around for decades, this is not something that have started recently. It is a personal choice to call them, rebels, freedom fighters, good guys or terrorists.

I don't know enough to call the PKK anything. i just taught that attacks on the military doesn't suggest terrorists to me, the other activities you mention however do.

halkar wrote: »

The only local support they have is in Northern Iraq. As I said earlier if they had the support of 20 million Kurds in Turkey, Turkey would be in chaos now.

Fair enough.

halkar wrote: »

Terrorism is terrorism be it in Turkey, Spain, US, Northern Ireland, Israel, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, be it religiously, nationalistically or personally motivated. Again it is a personal choice to call them, rebels, freedom fighters, good guys or terrorists. One truth about terrorists is support for them is always very little unless they have other governments behind them for their own national interests. Often they achieve nothing with bloodshed they cause.

I agree terrorism is terrorism, but very often when a state does something, that is for all intent and purposes terrorism, where civilians are attacked with the intent to cause a political change by terrorizing them, it is not called terrorism, when done by guys in a uniform, which strikes me as a double standard.

Personally, I think the military attacks are going to damage the political steps, to solve these problems, and the political steps are the steps, that will actually solve the issue imho long term. Finally, Iraq is a mess, and they don't need anything that will cause that poor country anymore trouble.