More job loses. Great job Fianna Fail.

Pride Fighter · 18-05-2010 4:27pm #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0518/pfizer.html

785 jobs down the swanny. Fianna Fail are doing a terrible job in jobs retention and job creation. Radical action is required to save this economy.

Lately I've been thinking that perhaps a reduction in corporation tax to 10% as well as radical tax breaks to job creators could be a good way to get out of this hole. Its better than doing nothing which is currently the case.

18-05-2010 4:37pm

What does rationalization after a merger and before the loss of patent protection in its biggest drugs have to do with FF?

dogbert27 · 18-05-2010 4:38pm

Well unfortunately Fianna Fail couldn't do anything about Pfizer R&D not coming up with another block buster drug after Lipitor and now all their blockbuster drugs have run out of the patents they can now be replicated by generic drug makers cheaper.

They planned to get into biotech developing a pilot plant in Ringaskiddy but then decided just to buy a bio company instead, i.e. Wyeths.

As I said unfortunately our government can't do anything about this.

ongarite · 18-05-2010 4:43pm

OP,

I can't see how the government are at fault here but you keep on preaching like that cos "everything is the governments fault."

The announcement today was inevitable since the day of the the Pfizer and Wieth merger. Massive factory redundancy and replication worldwide not just in Ireland and need for cost-saving due to patent of their cash-cow, Lipitor, running out is the reason for the job losses.

Biggins · 18-05-2010 4:51pm

Op - trust me, I'd be one of the first to give out about FF but the loss of the jobs is a current effect of the times we live in.

Now if FF could actually bother their overpaid asses to concentrate on jobs generally and hospitals, instead of worrying about headshops and and their pensions, that would be even better!

RandomName2 · 18-05-2010 5:24pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0518/pfizer.html

785 jobs down the swanny. Fianna Fail are doing a terrible job in jobs retention and job creation. Radical action is required to save this economy.

Lately I've been thinking that perhaps a reduction in corporation tax to 10% as well as radical tax breaks to job creators could be a good way to get out of this hole. Its better than doing nothing which is currently the case.

What about vote Yes for Jobs (Lisbon was meant to be the government's biggest hurdle, followed by NAMA - great 'job' the completion of both projects have done for the economy).

However, Lenihan has done some good work in cutting deficit. Moreover, I hate to rain on your parade but Gilmore ain't a silver bullet.

You are right about tax breaks for business. In order for the Irish economy to survive in its present form it also needs to find ways to reduce the cost of living throughout the country in order that lower wages be introduced. The Unions and employment laws have to be cut to ribbons as well. There is not much point in us boasting great workers' rights and high minimum wage if companies like DELL pack up and leave. Finally we should also attempt to find means to curb the other recurring costs for businesses. Costs of electricity alone are surprisingly significant in terms of companies' overheads.

We have got the workforce education (provided they don't all emigrate) - we should make the country a more inviting prospect for companies.

Cutting the public sector and social welfare wouldn't hurt the budget deficit as well I suppose, although the manner in which the latter is approached can be problematic.

RandomName2 · 18-05-2010 5:25pm

Biggins wrote: »

headshops

Blame Joe Duffy for politics-by-media for that.

Run_to_da_hills · 18-05-2010 5:43pm

If the Government permitted the unrestricted sale of Viagra at "headshops" the 785 jobs could easily be saved.

Biggins · 18-05-2010 5:55pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Blame Joe Duffy for politics-by-media for that.

Sadly true.

At least some people call them out for the rubbish they spill out: http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/

bleg · 18-05-2010 6:23pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If the Government permitted the unrestricted sale of Viagra at "headshops" the 785 jobs could easily be saved.

Nah, none of the plants involved make Viagra.

Colonel Sanders · 18-05-2010 6:42pm

Looks like we've turned that elusive corner alright

maynooth_rules · 18-05-2010 8:35pm

Can't blame the government really for this, but by god we have plenty to blame them for. Expect Batt to come out tomorrow and say that they are setting up a task force. That seems to be their favourite word when it comes to job losses

dlofnep · 18-05-2010 9:16pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Lately I've been thinking that perhaps a reduction in corporation tax to 10% as well as radical tax breaks to job creators could be a good way to get out of this hole. Its better than doing nothing which is currently the case.

Absolutely not. One of the biggest causes of major job losses in Ireland (2000 in Dell, 100's more here) is because our entire economy is totally dependant on foreign business. All these businesses are now pulling out of Ireland - and Fianna Fáil have little control over making them stay. Reducing Corp Tax any further is an absurd idea, and will amount to selling our economy for the highest bidder.

What we need to do is start encouraging local startups, instead of pandering to Johnny-fly-bys.

Pittens · 18-05-2010 9:22pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Absolutely not. One of the biggest causes of major job losses in Ireland (2000 in Dell, 100's more here) is because our entire economy is totally dependant on foreign business. All these businesses are now pulling out of Ireland - and Fianna Fáil have little control over making them stay. Reducing Corp Tax any further is an absurd idea, and will amount to selling our economy for the highest bidder.

What we need to do is start encouraging local startups, instead of pandering to Johnny-fly-bys.

If the local startups were faced, if they got big, with a large corporation tax, they too would leave.

We don't really have fly by night multinationals, some have been here for decades.

Colonel Sanders · 18-05-2010 9:27pm

While the government are maybe not to blame in this incidence, a serious root of the unemployment is lack of competitiveness

To quote Morgan Kelly

Morgan Kelly wrote:

Ireland went from getting about 5% of its national income from house building in the 1990s – the usual level for a developed economy – to 15% at the peak of the boom in 2006–2007, with another 6% coming from other construction. In effect, the Irish decided that competitiveness no longer mattered, and that the road to riches lay in selling houses to each other.

Dannyboy83 · 18-05-2010 10:47pm

It's a shame, I agree there isn't much the government could have done.

Lets hope Irish politicians have discovered how to use the telephone, so Mary Coughlan and Willie O'Dea won't go over on the Gulfsteam to beg for the jobs back , that only cost half €164,000 when Dell pulled out and didn't save a single job.

conorhal · 19-05-2010 4:09pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Absolutely not. One of the biggest causes of major job losses in Ireland (2000 in Dell, 100's more here) is because our entire economy is totally dependant on foreign business. All these businesses are now pulling out of Ireland - and Fianna Fáil have little control over making them stay. Reducing Corp Tax any further is an absurd idea, and will amount to selling our economy for the highest bidder.

What we need to do is start encouraging local startups, instead of pandering to Johnny-fly-bys.

We absolutely do need to encourage local start ups, and we should not reduce the corporate tax rate, BUT, we do need to reduce the cost of doing business in this country as the cost of doing business here often negates the benefits of a low corporate tax rate for a corporation (the enormous cost of energy for example) and it often strangles indigenous start up businesses at birth.

In a period of cost deflation, costs relating to the state, rates, power, water, waste collection etc are rising and putting small business out of business. Local county councils seem to me to actively dissuade anybody from starting a business. My bro opened a small business in a small country town, and the first thing the council did was demand 10 grand for ‘change of purpose’ in his planning permission. When he queried the cost he was told he had to pay up to provide additional parking in the town (BTW, there is no parking near or outside his business and no additional spaces have been provided by the council in the 5 years since he ponied up.) You'd think that they would be greatful to have a new employer and rate payer in the area, but no, they wanted to bleed him dry to the point that he was left to wonder why anybody would start a business in this country.
It's the same story with rates, it used to be the case that the rates a business paid covered water and waste collection, now these are aditional charges and rates are just a tax on businesses.

anymore · 20-05-2010 12:02pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Absolutely not. One of the biggest causes of major job losses in Ireland (2000 in Dell, 100's more here) is because our entire economy is totally dependant on foreign business. All these businesses are now pulling out of Ireland - and Fianna Fáil have little control over making them stay. Reducing Corp Tax any further is an absurd idea, and will amount to selling our economy for the highest bidder.

What we need to do is start encouraging local startups, instead of pandering to Johnny-fly-bys.

Do you want to go back to Pre - Sixties Ireland to Dev's era of frugal self- sufficieny and comely maidens dancing at cross roads ?
Sinn Fein is the most economic illiterate organisations in Europe, a fact that Gerry Adams goes out of his way to highlight.
Ireland is one of the most open economies in the western World and we owe much of our prosperity since the sixties to the location of Multi nationals in ireland. They have not only provided tens of thousands of jobs directly but indirectly supported much greater numbers of indirect jobs. They have also provided technological expertise in this country that was not previousily available in Ireland. Many of irleand's ' indigenous' industries rely upon the Multi nationals to breathe life into and sustain local economies - which is why the loss of major Multi nationals is such a traumatic event for this country.
" All these businesses are now pulling out of Ireland - " This is such a factually incorrect statement that it just beggars belief !
Are you aware that Dell still employs over 2,000 people in Ireland in higher level work than mere assembly work ?
I will tell what a Johhny-fly- by is . It is a foreign politician like Gerry Adams poking his nose in the business of the Irish Republic !

gandalf · 20-05-2010 12:29pm

The Government could not do anything about the losses in Pfizer and Wyeth. Once they announced the merger you knew jobs would go. What they and the various job creation agencies should have been doing is preparing alternatives in the areas that job losses were going to occur. I assume they did the usual crawling to Pfizer/Wyeth begging that we be left alone.

I agree with others here that we need to be developing a strong local start up culture especially in industries and sectors with high growth potential but to do that we need to get the costs of doing business in Ireland under control and especially the costs of dealing with Government and Local Government. We are nowhere near that position and that is where our representatives and planners should be concentrating their energies. They will avoid that like the plague thought as its means being unpopular.

anymore · 20-05-2010 12:40pm

conorhal wrote: »

We absolutely do need to encourage local start ups, and we should not reduce the corporate tax rate, BUT, we do need to reduce the cost of doing business in this country as the cost of doing business here often negates the benefits of a low corporate tax rate for a corporation and it often strangles indigenous start up businesses at birth.

In a period of cost deflation, costs relating to the state, rates, power, water, waste collection etc are rising and putting small business out of business. Local county councils seem to me to actively dissuade anybody from starting a business. My bro opened a small business in a small country town, and the first thing the council did was demand 10 grand for ‘change of purpose’ in his planning permission. When he queried the cost he was told he had to pay up to provide additional parking in the town (BTW, there is no parking near or outside his business and no additional spaces have been provided by the council in the 5 years since he ponied up.) You'd think that they would be greatful to have a new employer and rate payer in the area, but no, they wanted to bleed him dry to the point that he was left to wonder why anybody would start a business in this country.

Great post which reflects the reality that is official support for businneses. Ireland is,in reality is still as far as Local authorities are concerned, a pseudo communist country.
Consider the reality that Cork City has a Lord mayor who gets a package including Salry of € 100,000 (2009) plus car and driver plus expenses of € 50,000+ plus Councillors salary of € 17,000 plus office staff. The job is only ceremonial. The County then has its separtate mayor again .
Corks Councillors have a massive junkets programme spanning the globe.
This is all paid for by people like your brother.
The Soviet Union is long gone, but 'Socialism' is alive and well in Official Ireland !

gandalf · 20-05-2010 1:22pm

anymore wrote: »

The Soviet Union is long gone, but 'Socialism' is alive and well in Official Ireland !

Thats not socialism it is pure and utter cronyism !!

dlofnep · 20-05-2010 1:46pm

conorhal wrote: »

In a period of cost deflation, costs relating to the state, rates, power, water, waste collection etc are rising and putting small business out of business. Local county councils seem to me to actively dissuade anybody from starting a business. My bro opened a small business in a small country town, and the first thing the council did was demand 10 grand for ‘change of purpose’ in his planning permission. When he queried the cost he was told he had to pay up to provide additional parking in the town (BTW, there is no parking near or outside his business and no additional spaces have been provided by the council in the 5 years since he ponied up.) You'd think that they would be greatful to have a new employer and rate payer in the area, but no, they wanted to bleed him dry to the point that he was left to wonder why anybody would start a business in this country.

I spoke to a few startup businesses - and they said the amount of red-tape they had to go through to get setup was ridiculous. They said they spent more time filling out forms, and business plans than actually on their products. We certainly need to start streamlining business startups for sure.

enda1 · 20-05-2010 1:51pm

http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/

While we are not at the top, we are not far off.
Anyone see a certain similarity amongst most of the top countries?

That's right. The influence of the UK on the capitalist nature of its (former) Empire lives strong.

dlofnep · 20-05-2010 1:51pm

anymore wrote: »

Do you want to go back to Pre - Sixties Ireland to Dev's era of frugal self- sufficieny and comely maidens dancing at cross roads ?

I'm sorry - but where did I suggest that? I stated that we need to encourage more local startups instead of becoming entirely dependent on foreign investment. Nobody in their right mind would object to such a proposal. I didn't state anywhere that we do not need foreign investment. You might want to read what's being posted, before you go off on a anti-SF whine.

anymore wrote: »

Sinn Fein is the most economic illiterate organisations in Europe, a fact that Gerry Adams goes out of his way to highlight.

Who mentioned Sinn Féin? So economic illiterate are they that they warned about the banking and property market long before any other political party in Ireland.

anymore wrote: »

I will tell what a Johhny-fly- by is . It is a foreign politician like Gerry Adams poking his nose in the business of the Irish Republic !

Sorry, but what has Gerry Adams got to do with the topic at hand? There is a topic already being discussed on SF - I suggest that you might keep it to that thread, instead of bleeding in on every other thread that I post in. Gerry Adams can give his thoughts on whatever he wishes, being the president of a 32 county, all-Ireland party. whether you agree with his thoughts is another matter.

anymore · 20-05-2010 2:02pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Absolutely not. One of the biggest causes of major job losses in Ireland (2000 in Dell, 100's more here) is because our entire economy is totally dependant on foreign business. All these businesses are now pulling out of Ireland - and Fianna Fáil have little control over making them stay. Reducing Corp Tax any further is an absurd idea, and will amount to selling our economy for the highest bidder.

What we need to do is start encouraging local startups, instead of pandering to Johnny-fly-bys.

Fact 1: Our ENTIRE economy is not TOTALLY dependent on FOREIGN businnesses.
That is an impossible proposition, I imagine.

Fact 2: ALL these BUSINESSES are NOT Pulling OUT of ireland.

conorhal · 20-05-2010 3:31pm

anymore wrote: »

Great post which reflects the reality that is official support for businneses. Ireland is,in reality is still as far as Local authorities are concerned, a pseudo communist country.
Consider the reality that Cork City has a Lord mayor who gets a package including Salry of € 100,000 (2009) plus car and driver plus expenses of € 50,000+ plus Councillors salary of € 17,000 plus office staff. The job is only ceremonial. The County then has its separtate mayor again .
Corks Councillors have a massive junkets programme spanning the globe.
This is all paid for by people like your brother.
The Soviet Union is long gone, but 'Socialism' is alive and well in Official Ireland !

Indeed. My brother lives in Co. Clare, the county that last year had the highest spend in the country per councilor on foreign travel. It has also built itself the most impressive shiny new HQ. Meanwhile Clare has the worst water infrastructure in the country, a fact that severely impacted my brothers business over the winter period when all the flooding and frozen pipes occurred. I'd have serious questions about how these junket junkie gombeen men spend their budgets.

danbohan · 20-05-2010 3:40pm

anymore wrote: »

Do you want to go back to Pre - Sixties Ireland to Dev's era of frugal self- sufficieny and comely maidens dancing at cross roads ?
Sinn Fein is the most economic illiterate organisations in Europe, a fact that Gerry Adams goes out of his way to highlight.
Ireland is one of the most open economies in the western World and we owe much of our prosperity since the sixties to the location of Multi nationals in ireland. They have not only provided tens of thousands of jobs directly but indirectly supported much greater numbers of indirect jobs. They have also provided technological expertise in this country that was not previousily available in Ireland. Many of irleand's ' indigenous' industries rely upon the Multi nationals to breathe life into and sustain local economies - which is why the loss of major Multi nationals is such a traumatic event for this country.
" All these businesses are now pulling out of Ireland - " This is such a factually incorrect statement that it just beggars belief !
Are you aware that Dell still employs over 2,000 people in Ireland in higher level work than mere assembly work ?
I will tell what a Johhny-fly- by is . It is a foreign politician like Gerry Adams poking his nose in the business of the Irish Republic !

your point which has some validly is one again lost because of your anti Irish anti gerry adams rhetoric , it has nothing to do with the orignal op , why dont you sit yourself down and try taking that chip off your shoulder

dlofnep · 20-05-2010 3:59pm

anymore wrote: »

Fact 1: Our ENTIRE economy is not TOTALLY dependent on FOREIGN businnesses.
That is an impossible proposition, I imagine.

If you wish to pitter-patter around semantics, then do it at someone else's expense. You know fully-well what I meant. If even 20% of the foreign investment in Ireland were to go tomorrow - the entire state would collapse. We are indeed totally dependent on foreign investment.

anymore wrote: »

Fact 2: ALL these BUSINESSES are NOT Pulling OUT of ireland.

Sigh. You know that's not the context in which I meant it. Many businesses are pulling work out of Ireland, and it's having a huge impact on our economy. The abnormally high unemployment rates are a testament to that. Amongst the highest in Europe. Infact, we had the highest increase in unemployment (over 49%) in Europe.

So you can either waste your time on a semantics argument (which is pointless) - or you can discuss the merits of what is actually being discussed - That is a strong dependency on foreign investment, which can pull out at any given time.

Does that mean that I've suggest that we totally remove foreign investment? No. But that I would consider further reduction in corporate tax to completely sell-out our economy to the highest bidder, and that we should start focusing on assisting home-grown business getting setup off the ground. Everything I have proposed is reasonable. All you have responded with is cod-acting around word-play.

More job loses. Great job Fianna Fail.

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