British and Irish Lions vs Western Force, Wed 5 June 11am; Sky Sports 1

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 4:23pm

.ak wrote: »

I counted three turn overs from SOB, but the ref was playing advantage every time for WF, I think your 're reading into stats too much, SOB broke the gain line every time he got crash ball, was a thorn in their side at ruck time, was extremely efficient on the deck, his link play was easily the best of any back rows, and was a direct result in a lot of tries today.

Even the little things like when the lions were on the backfoot he took the ball and buried himself a meter past the ruck to allow some breathing room for a clearance.

Listen, I'm a massive Halfpenny fan, but in no way did he put a motm performance in, all those nailed on kicks mean very little when your beating a team off the park with tries. He wouldn't be entirely happy with his game off the tee either.

I gotta say I disagree, Tipuric was far superior and I have had time to watch that game back.

Theres no way Sean O'Brien was MOTM.

On any day that kicking performance alone would be worthy of MOTM.

This is key to us winning the series, Sexton being forced to kick under pressure is to be feared.

If they had been under the posts, thats a different matter.

And he was the class Full pack so far. Thats against what I reckon wasn't even the best No 7 performance so far.

So he wont start, possibly the bench.

You are talking about 3 great players here, it's no shame to be the 3rd in the line playing out of position.

rockbeast · 05-06-2013 4:24pm

Buer wrote: »

Its the first game in Australia. It wasn't any variety of pack or back line. Half the people praising SOB aren't even Leinster fans.

For example, lets look at the only player ratings I found when I typed it into Google. Highest rated player? SOB:

SEAN O’BRIEN: Superb display from the rampaging Ireland openside - carried well, offered a line-out option, played with intelligence and showed great hands. 9

His awareness with passes and of supporting lines genuinely surprised me today. Kept his head up and that was great to see.

thomond2006 · 05-06-2013 4:25pm

SOB was outstanding but an 11/11 kicking record is virtually unheard of. Halfpenny deserved the MOTM award IMO.

Heroditas · 05-06-2013 4:27pm

Is Sexton crap again at kicking?
I just need to know if that's back in vogue.

.ak · 05-06-2013 4:28pm

Who did actually get motm? Some sources saying HP, some SOB, some sexton etc?

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 4:28pm

.ak wrote: »

Heaslip had a good running and defending game, but SOBs work rate was way higher and was actually the more effective carrier.

I think your just a tad too easily wooed by eye catching runs.

Heaslip was the stand out forward in the game I'm afraid and SOB wont start, yer just going to have to come to terms with it.

Buer · 05-06-2013 4:28pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

SOB was outstanding but an 11/11 kicking record is virtually unheard of. Halfpenny deserved the MOTM award IMO.

I don't think too many have a major issue with that. It's the claim that SOB wasn't anything special today which people find bewildering. Stats highlighting mistakes, claiming a lack of impact and that he's bottom of the pecking order after today; that's what's in question.

Leslie91 · 05-06-2013 4:29pm

andrewdcs wrote: »

Disagree with almost all of what you say bar this, I reckon we'll see him and/or hogg tried out at 10 next wednesday.

U mean 1/2penny? try he at 10?......

rockbeast · 05-06-2013 4:30pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

SOB was outstanding but an 11/11 kicking record is virtually unheard of. Halfpenny deserved the MOTM award IMO.

It was an awesome kicking display but personally don't think that alone deserves a MOTM in what, in fairness, turned in to a rout.

He did also run some good lines and make 2/3 big tackles though so he was not undeserving of MOTM for overall game.

Lelantos · 05-06-2013 4:30pm

.ak wrote: »

Who did actually get motm? Some sources saying HP, some SOB, some sexton etc?

1/2 was mom

Leslie91 · 05-06-2013 4:30pm

.ak wrote: »

Who did actually get motm? Some sources saying HP, some SOB, some sexton etc?

Sky gave it to 1/2penny.

.ak · 05-06-2013 4:31pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

This is key to us winning the series, Sexton being forced to kick under pressure is to be feared.

.

Oh yeah, cus Sexton has trouble kicking all those points in hcup finals...

What are you basing that on? The fact he missed a few tricky kicks in 35+degree heat and 90% humidity?

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 4:31pm

Leslie91 wrote: »

Sky gave it to 1/2penny.

Sky are fair and balanced in their analysis. They must be right

Ruck Inspector · 05-06-2013 4:35pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

Sky are fair and balanced in their analysis.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 4:38pm

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ruck Inspector · 05-06-2013 4:40pm

Sky are not fair and balanced.

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 4:44pm

.ak wrote: »

Oh yeah, cus Sexton has trouble kicking all those points in hcup finals...

What are you basing that on? The fact he missed a few tricky kicks in 35+degree heat and 90% humidity?

None of his kicks were tricky by international standards and please don't be making excuses for him. His technique is poor at the top level and comes unstuck far too easily.

This is the Lions, not a club game, he needs close to perfection, 4 out of 5 at least

He has good days and bad days.

He is the 3rd best kicking option we have, maybe 4th, havent seen much of Hogg.

05-06-2013 4:47pm

Heroditas wrote: »

Is Sexton crap again at kicking?
I just need to know if that's back in vogue.

Nope,

Halfpenny is just outrageously good.

No point in letting the 90% kicker wind up up when there's a 95% option in the starting XV.

Before the game I really believed that there wasn't much in it between them in terms of kicking, but Halfpenny didn't just score with each conversion, he split the posts. It was Robin Hood stuff.

I don't think I've ever seen Sexton anywhere near as precise with such difficult kicks. Which is no embarrassment, Halfpenny knocked over 6/7 from inside the 5m lines on both sides of the park. It was outstanding.

Ruck Inspector · 05-06-2013 4:50pm

Halfpenny is incredibly unlikely to ever kick that well again. Still I'd pick him ahead of Sexton right now.

Sexton is still a very good kicker though.

rockbeast · 05-06-2013 4:50pm

Okay, back to the actual match and not the MOTM.

IMO pack on Saturday were superior to pack today. SOB and Heaslip being the exceptions.

Saturday's team ahead at 9. Phillips over Murray no questions.

From 10 out today I thought today's backs looked a hell of a lot more cohesive than on Saturday. There was a fluidity in their lines and awareness of support that was in stark contrast to Saturday's receive-charge-fall-recycle spectacle.

Now hopefully this is because the training and familiarisation is paying off, also perhaps because of Irish influence on backline.

Either way it bodes well for the series if we put saturdays pack + 1/2 of Heaslip/SOB and today's backs + philips and roberts in.

I'll predict now a 2-1 test series to the Lions with Aus winning 3rd test. I think Gatland is going about things the right way and believe he will have the balls to make any decisions ie Warburton/AWJ starting if they are not in form/fit...

Grimebox · 05-06-2013 4:55pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYY0DBVmAy0

Buer · 05-06-2013 4:58pm

Halfpenny should absolutely keep the kicking now he's in the groove but he has bad days just like anyone. He had mare in one of the 6N games. He was 3/6 when Cardiff lost by 8 points to Toulon. He was 2/5 in the return fixture. I think he missed his first 3 againt Scotland in the 6N. Himself and Sexton are pretty inseparable in terms of stats. Sexton outperformed him in Cardiff this year also off the tee.

But Halfpenny is the one in form and you don't screw with that. Lets not pretend he's something completely different though and go over board with the fawning.

Losty Dublin · 05-06-2013 4:58pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

hahaha, I love the Leinster Bias.

He needs to outshine Tipuric for one, which he hasn't. And he'll also need to outshine the Captain, which he still might. But he still wont start.

He had an ok game, but 7 just aint his position.

This was the B forward pack today I'm afraid and only Heaslip stood out. Today was a fight for the benc for these guys.

B forward pack with the A fly half, the A fullback, and the A Center

Today's game was one where WF would rely on isolating players at a breakdown with the hope stifling open play, turning over and catching the defense on the back foot, winning penalty ball or a mix of all three; in short it's a day for hard running loose forwards as distinct to requiring a vintage open side disrupting the 5/8 feed.

When it comes to playing the isolated game there are few better in the world than SOB, which is why he and Heaslip were picked today and precisely why they both had big games. If the game needs a forward to play vintage 7 then SOB can do that. However, the modern game has evolved and today open side is more a general skill set for all the back row to employ than a specialist position that it once was.

On that note it follows that SOB wouldn't shine as a out and out 7 from todays game should you choose to typecast him as one. Had Tipuric played today he'd not have fitted into your stiff mould either

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:03pm

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Halfpenny is incredibly unlikely to ever kick that well again. Still I'd pick him ahead of Sexton right now.

Sexton is still a very good kicker though.

Look at his kicks for Wales, he is Neil Jenkins reborn

Principal Skinner · 05-06-2013 5:04pm

There was no official sky MOTM. Greenwood and Barnes were the only ones I heard talking about it and they said they'd give it to sob. The official MOTM came from the host broadcaster (fox sports) who gave it to BOD.

Whilst it was a great kicking performance he didn't do much else at all in the game and was undeserving of the MOTM IMO

Neil3030 · 05-06-2013 5:08pm

Thanks to its association with Fox News, doesn't the phrase "fair and balanced" now mean "gruesomely partisan, biased and demagogic"?

Buer · 05-06-2013 5:11pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

Look at his kicks for Wales, he is Neil Jenkins reborn

Halfpenny is 82% for Wales this season. He's a very good kicker. Not amazing.

Three cheers for Leigh Halfpenny. Very good. Very good.

Tox56 · 05-06-2013 5:11pm

Principal Skinner wrote: »

There was no official sky MOTM. Greenwood and Barnes were the only ones I heard talking about it and they said they'd give it to sob. The official MOTM came from the host broadcaster (fox sports) who gave it to BOD.

Whilst it was a great kicking performance he didn't do much else at all in the game and was undeserving of the MOTM IMO

Does BOD just automatically get MOTM in the Southern Hemisphere if he plays 80 mins?? He scored 2 tries but was hardly MOTM

Skid X · 05-06-2013 5:12pm

I don't get the obsession with 'Man of The Match'.

It's not an official award, It's usually just the opinion of one bloke. And at most games different broadcasters and Journalists give it to different players (usually on the home team).

rockbeast · 05-06-2013 5:13pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Thanks to its association with Fox News, doesn't the phrase "fair and balanced" now mean "gruesomely partisan, biased and demagogic"?

Sean O'Brien IS a Weapon of Mass Destruction - Fact:D

Even Hans Blix could spot him, regardless of Fox/sky propaganda!

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:13pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Today's game was one where WF would rely on isolating players at a breakdown with the hope stifling open play, turning over and catching the defense on the back foot, winning penalty ball or a mix of all three; in short it's a day for hard running loose forwards as distinct to requiring a vintage open side disrupting the 5/8 feed.

When it comes to playing the isolated game there are few better in the world than SOB, which is why he and Heaslip were picked today and precisely why they both had big games. If the game needs a forward to play vintage 7 then SOB can do that. However, the modern game has evolved and today open side is more a general skill set for all the back row to employ than a specialist position that it once was.

On that note it follows that SOB wouldn't shine as a out and out 7 from todays game should you choose to typecast him as one. Had Tipuric played today he'd not have fitted into your stiff mould either

Re-watch the 2009 Lions, Brussow tore the lions apart, in fact I reckon he won them the Series as no one could stop him winning turn overs. The running is as hard in SA as it is anywhere else.

Pocock is the same, he would have caused us serious problems in the world cup and the lions are lucky he is out

Warburton destroyed us in the World Cup with the same type of play.

This is number 7 play at it's best and why it is still a specialist position.

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:15pm

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Sky are not fair and balanced.

How insightful of you

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:24pm

Buer wrote: »

Halfpenny is 82% for Wales this season. He's a very good kicker. Not amazing.

Three cheers for Leigh Halfpenny. Very good. Very good.

This is Leigh 'Player of the 6 nations' Halfpenny you are speaking of

Anyway, lets hope the Reds are a sterner Test at the weekend and we keep the injuries down

Buer · 05-06-2013 5:31pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

Re-watch the 2009 Lions, Brussow tore the lions apart, in fact I reckon he won them the Series as no one could stop him winning turn overs.

That'd be the lad that was taken off after 50 minutes of the first test and dropped for the second test.

rockbeast · 05-06-2013 5:32pm

Buer wrote: »

That'd be the lad that was taken off after 50 minutes of the first test and dropped for the second test.

Quiet, now, monkeyb is on a roll:rolleyes:

norrie rugger · 05-06-2013 5:34pm

even in that highlight reel above, the amount of high tackles is worrying. half of the upper body tackles end up with the player in a headlock on the ground

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:47pm

Buer wrote: »

That'd be the lad that was taken off after 50 minutes of the first test and dropped for the second test.

Yeah the one who scored their 3rd try, the winning one in fact and who after he went off the score went from 26-7 to 26-21 almost entirely down to his loss of influence and the lions finally being able to get into the game

is that the one?

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:49pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

Yeah the one who scored their 3rd try, the winning one in fact and who after he went off the score went from 26-7 to 26-21 almost entirely down to his loss of influence and the lions finally being able to get into the game

is that the one?

In fact his removal and it's effects were akin to Hill being taken off injured in the 2001 Lions tour, it was that vast.

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:57pm

Oh yeah and the same one who the Saffers were losing the second game but magically started winning just after he came on

Great summary on Wikipedia I must say

20 June 2009 : South Africa vs British and Irish Lions I: Heinrich Brüssow replaces injured Schalk Burger in the starting line-up. His ball-stealing and recovering skills proved too much for the Lions. When he was replaced in the second half, the Lions managed to fight back, but not enough to win the game. Scored a try from the back of a maul and was outstanding as they went on to secure a 2-1 series victory.
27 June 2009 : South Africa vs Lions II: Brüssow came on in the 62nd minute and effected a few crucial turn-overs helping seal the 28-25 victory for the South Africans.

ongarite · 05-06-2013 5:58pm

Healy has been cited for the alleged bite.
Tour over for sure if he loses the hearing.

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 5:58pm

rockbeast wrote: »

Quiet, now, monkeyb is on a roll:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

rockbeast · 05-06-2013 6:01pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

:rolleyes:

you just hurt my feelings. Lose the chip and you might be an interesting poster.

Swan Curry · 05-06-2013 6:01pm

ongarite wrote: »

Healy has been cited for the alleged bite.
Tour over for sure if he loses the hearing.

Is there any footage of the bite.The way the WF 9 was acting during the match makes it difficult to believe him on his word alone.

seanm92 · 05-06-2013 6:04pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

Is there any footage of the bite.The way the WF 9 was acting during the match makes it difficult to believe him on his word alone.

Th ref lokked at it at the time but TBH it was inconclusive, it was impossible to see a bite, however, Sheehan's forearm was around Healy's mouth/face area so it's possible. It'd be very hard to prove unless the player had some kind of bite mark I'd say

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 6:04pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

Is there any footage of the bite.The way the WF 9 was acting during the match makes it difficult to believe him on his word alone.

Yeah, I doubt anything will come of it. From watching the replay they showed on sky there was no sign of biting.

madds · 05-06-2013 6:23pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

He is the 3rd best kicking option we have, maybe 4th, havent seen much of Hogg.

I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but after this statement you are now on Ignore.

monkeybutter · 05-06-2013 6:24pm

madds wrote: »

I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but after this statement you are now on Ignore.

I havent seen much of Hogg kicking

is that better

wonderfullife · 05-06-2013 6:29pm

Thoughts on the Game (i'm sad enough to have watched it live and also have re-watched it again in full since

)

1. This performance should help finally silence the doubters over whether BOD still has it. He does. No debate, no question, he's still the best 13 in the Northern Hemisphere, the best Centre full stop. Injury-free he starts all 3 tests.

2. SOB and Heaslip were magnificent today in the loose. At the breakdown they were decent but no more than decent. This is where the complex decision lays for Gatland. If he puts a lot of weight on the breakdown area then the calls between Lydiate/Tipuric/Warburton/SOB/Heaslip/Faletau/Croft get even tighter. Make no mistake Croft is in the picture (imo), whilst he doesn't offer the raw power of some of the others he does a lot right, is a major help in the line-out and breakdown.

It's really too tough to call, if the emphasis is purely on the breakdown (in terms of openside). But based on that performance today it would be a travesty if NEITHER Heaslip or SOB start the first test. One of them should be in. Both carried brilliantly. O Brien, as we all know, is a beast. Heaslip brought his Grand Slam form to the table.

3. Best and Murray didn't do themselves too many favours, though in the case of Murray he had a very good 2nd half when on the pitch.

4. Tommy Bowe still looked like he was getting match sharpness but with another run-out i believe his linking with Sexton/BOD may prove the difference in getting ahead of Cuthbert. North is a certainty imo.

5. Whilst i dont see Evans usurping O' Connell, he certainly had a better game to Wyn-Jones.

6. If Sexton gets injured we (the Lions) are in a bit of bother. Farrell and a likely Wilkinson call-up, will not suit the style we are trying to play. At all. That much is clear. Sexton attacking the gain line is crucial to what the Lions are trying to do. Fact is this - we dont need Farrell for his kicking. Halfpenny and Sexton is plenty.

7. Based on the above, rob kearney will need a miraculously good game to even make it close with Halfpenny. Mind you, there may be a permutation to get both into the side, IF Bowe doesnt prove his match sharpness. I dont think Halfpenny offers anything superior to Kearney as a pure full back and i know i'd prefer Rob under the high ball for sure. It's just the kicking that is a clear separation.

My Ratings

15. Leigh Halfpenny: 7.5
14. Tommy Bowe: 6.5
13: Brian O’Driscoll: 8.5
12. Manu Tuilagi: 7.0
11. George North: 8
10. Johnny Sexton: 9.0
9. Conor Murray: 6.5
1. Cian Healy: 6
2. Rory Best: 6
3. Dan Cole: 6.5
4. Alun-Wyn Jones: 6.0
5. Ian Evans: 7
6. Tom Croft: 7.5
7. Sean O’Brien: 8.5
8. Jamie Heaslip: 8.5

Halfpenny arguably deserves more but he cost us 70 metres by being caught way out of position and didnt offer much other than kicking. Drico made a few mistakes and escaped a clear yellow, otherwise he'd get 9, O' Brien missed a key tackle, Heaslip also cost us a few penalties in bad positions.

The penalty count was quite worrying. Sure, it was the Force and we blew them away. But a penalty count that high against the Wallabies could be the difference between winning and losing.

Which is why Warburton may just edge the Openside for the Test. We need someone crafty at the breakdown to help lower the penalty count and for all SOB and Tipuric offer at 7 in terms of go-forward, neither did enough on the deck for my liking.

Loving the fact it's a Lions year, especially on a day like this nothing better than sitting in the sun watching it on laptop. The joys of unemployment

Lions Tour has assured my sanity for 6 more weeks

rockbeast · 05-06-2013 6:33pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

Thoughts on the Game (i'm sad enough to have watched it live and also have re-watched it again in full since )

Good review. Thanks. Don't agree with Evans opinion but best thoughts written for hours. cheers

Buer · 05-06-2013 6:35pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

Great summary on Wikipedia I must say

Glad to see you've gone to a bit of trouble to try and support your opinion this time but I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia ever as a source given its nature.

S.A. removed a host of players in the first game and didn't concede until their front five, who had bossed the game, started going off. Their front five absolutely battered the Lions in the tight and, when the game was safe, they took them off. Long after Brussow had gone.

Second test was just exhaustion from the Lions. Again, they couldn't handle the power and were decimated by injuries. They were torn open in the backs when they had to reshuffle completely with injuries.

Brussow had good displays but was far, far from the "he won them the series" performances you're attempting to claim.

British and Irish Lions vs Western Force, Wed 5 June 11am; Sky Sports 1

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