What did the brits ever do for us: the decline of the irish rail network 1925-1975

Marksie · 14-02-2008 9:53am #1

There is a wiki animated graphic showing the decline of the Irish rail network from 1925 -1975.
The decay really kicks in from 1960 onwards

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6d/Ireland%27s_Rail_Network_1925-75.gif

Mr. Presentable · 14-02-2008 10:01am

Yeah, it's a shocking picture. But a poor, young country like Ireland couldn't afford many of the infrastructures left behind by the occupying empire, and with the focus on getting electricity (for example) to the masses something had to slide. Remember what this country was like economically until about 15years ago

Marksie · 14-02-2008 10:52am

True, but want there a deliberate policy of allowing the netwrok (and the trams) to go in favour of the motor car? In the time when sean lemass was leadnig the country.

Mr. Presentable · 14-02-2008 11:53am

Marksie wrote: »

True, but want there a deliberate policy of allowing the netwrok (and the trams) to go in favour of the motor car? In the time when sean lemass was leadnig the country.

I think there was. The Naas road, for example was upgraded in the 60's at a massive cost. I suppose they thought the railways would look after themselves :rolleyes:

Marksie · 14-02-2008 12:21pm

nipplenuts wrote: »

I think there was. The Naas road, for example was upgraded in the 60's at a massive cost. I suppose they thought the railways would look after themselves :rolleyes:

Well i was listening to rte radio 1 one sunday many moons ago and they were talking about lemass and the policy.
One commentator did say that it was because the trams and railways were seen as a symbol of english repression. *but i am open to being told different: Nicely*
If so though it seems to have been a short sighted shoot yourselves in the foot policy. (or is that anything new lol)

loyatemu · 14-02-2008 12:58pm

very easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight. The 50s and 60s were the golden age of the motorcar - increasingly affordable vehicles and little traffic. No-one could have forseen the chaos that would ensue.

Many of the closed lines were slow, inefficient and ran through very lightly populated areas. Closing the harcourt and navan lines may have been a mistake in the long run, but at the time even they were losing large amounts of money.

Fratton Fred · 14-02-2008 1:10pm

Marksie wrote: »

Well i was listening to rte radio 1 one sunday many moons ago and they were talking about lemass and the policy.
One commentator did say that it was because the trams and railways were seen as a symbol of english repression. *but i am open to being told different: Nicely*
If so though it seems to have been a short sighted shoot yourselves in the foot policy. (or is that anything new lol)

My neighbour was pointing out that a terrace of houses in Sandycove were actually built by the British administration, they are very fine houses, with a "Downstairs" for the servants etc and are pretty much still in the same condition today as they were 100 years ago when they were built.

Once the British civil servants had built themselves these fine houses, they then built a tramline from central Dublin out to Dalkey (The tram yard in Dalkey is still there) so they could travel in comfort to work every day.

If what he tells me is true, then I can understand why this particular tramline was seen as "British" and the new state would not be overly fussed about maintaining.

There was also the "Atmospheric Railway" built down this way as well, that used compressed air to propel the trains, very interesting from an engineering perspective.

bauderline · 14-02-2008 1:18pm

All understandable given the economics of the time, its a real shame that they did not protect the lines though, not maintain them but just ensure nothing was built on them or across them.... it would have not cost too much ?

b.

14-02-2008 1:26pm

Dr Beeching did a similar thing in the UK! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_Axe

admiralofthefleet · 14-02-2008 1:54pm

isnt it rumoured that one vote closed the entire west cork railway?

tenandtracer · 14-02-2008 2:10pm

Marksie wrote: »

There is a wiki animated graphic showing the decline of the Irish rail network from 1925 -1975.
The decay really kicks in from 1960 onwards

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6d/Ireland%27s_Rail_Network_1925-75.gif

Same thing was happening in the six counties also. There just was not the demand for such a "complex" system back then.

markf909 · 14-02-2008 2:15pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Once the British civil servants had built themselves these fine houses, they then built a tramline from central Dublin out to Dalkey (The tram yard in Dalkey is still there) so they could travel in comfort to work every day.

If what he tells me is true, then I can understand why this particular tramline was seen as "British" and the new state would not be overly fussed about maintaining.

The tram lines were built by Irish business men using private money.
They were very rich Irish business men though.

They never went into the tenament areas of Dublin though as those folks couldn't afford the tram and hence were never too popular amongst the proles.

Polar101 · 14-02-2008 2:33pm

tenandtracer wrote: »

Same thing was happening in the six counties also. There just was not the demand for such a "complex" system back then.

And in quite a few other countries as well.

Such a shame, now that you think of it in hindsight..

trellheim · 14-02-2008 2:37pm

The tram lines were built by Irish business men using private money.
They were very rich Irish business men though.

Cough.... citywest extension anyone ?

markf909 · 14-02-2008 2:41pm

trellheim wrote: »

Cough.... citywest extension anyone ?

Tragically, they aren't building a whole tram network though.

Zoney · 14-02-2008 3:08pm

Although it makes sense to learn from the lessons of the past, it's not trivial to analyse them in a straightforward fashion. As someone else pointed out, the motor car looked a lot more like the solution to everything back when there were far fewer on the road, and the railways were in a terrible state after the Emergency and decades of the state being rather poor. Steam locomotion in itself wasn't 100% a reason for the railways looking bad, but in the form most people saw it, it wasn't pretty. We're just lucky to have any rail after having been in some ways in a similar situation in the 1980s and early 90s. Getting the Mark IIIs and the 201 locomotives was a life-saver. However much On-track and roll out of CWR didn't solve all the problems in the system, it was also invaluable in at least bringing things forward a fair bit.

There remain many problems with rail travel in Ireland, and the motorways are a threat, but we are today in an immensely better situation all the same. Even if rail and public transport aren't being invested in *enough*, they are being heavily invested in with all the new rolling stock and some few re-openings. This is far better than not having that, and certainly provides much more hope of a greater reliance on public transport in the future, however inadequate it still is today. There is at least the chance of even more service improvements in the future, signalling upgrades, more reopenings, bridge replacements, line renewal/double tracking etc. Sure there are those who want to see that now (indeed I'm probably among them), but the point is you wouldn't have *any* hope of it but for the investment that is going in at the present, even if you may consider it inadequate.

It's easy to complain about the Luas, or how the Metro isn't going to be good enough (and I'm happy to complain about either). Nevertheless, it's somewhat of a miracle to have gotten the former at all, or any chance of the latter in any form. Important to acknowledge that.

Schuhart · 14-02-2008 8:46pm

loyatemu wrote: »

very easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight. The 50s and 60s were the golden age of the motorcar - increasingly affordable vehicles and little traffic. No-one could have forseen the chaos that would ensue.

Many of the closed lines were slow, inefficient and ran through very lightly populated areas. Closing the harcourt and navan lines may have been a mistake in the long run, but at the time even they were losing large amounts of money.

Absolutely. CIE was running massive losses on services that were poorly patronised. The State had to take on a debt of something like £16 million related to those accumulated losses on rail services - sounds modest today, but this was something like twice the annual education budget in 1958. Keeping the services going simply wasn't an option.

The only complaint that could have been made at the time was that the Government was too slow to act in closing services and prevent the massive losses increasing to those crisis proportions. Yes, its complex and its good that people aren't rushing to condemn those decisions. I think the simple point is that they were right to do what they did at the time. There's no national benefit in spending money on services that people don't use. It would have been ridiculous for us to have spent the last 40 years without resources for, say, health or education while our money kept empty trains buzzing about the country.

Maybe there would have been a benefit in keeping some lines in public ownership - but that might also have turned into a constraint. Consider how the reopened Limerick - Athenry service will be slow as its following the winding route it inherited from the original line. If we had to just lay a new line between Galway and Limerick (assuming such was justified), I expect it would avoid that constraint.

Its not simple, and I hope I don't seem like I'm saying it is. But I think the message is we should do what makes sense at the time. If it now makes sense to provide new services lets do it.

fly_agaric · 15-02-2008 11:08pm

Zoney wrote: »

We're just lucky to have any rail

the Luas, <...> the Metro <...>, it's somewhat of a miracle to have gotten the former at all, or any chance of the latter in any form. Important to acknowledge that.

we have such low expectations...I suppose that's probably for the best:(

What did the brits ever do for us: the decline of the irish rail network 1925-1975

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