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A PLEA TO IRISH VOTERS - Video

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  • 11-06-2008 11:56pm
    #1
    pyrogenx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭


    If the lisbon threaty will be accepted by Ireland, we will not get another chance to vote on any future threaties regarding anything within europe. It is a self-amending treaty to end all treaties. This is our last chance to avoid it! If Ireland votes Yes, there will be no need for any treaty referendums... ever! In future we will thinking back and remembering how nice it was to have influence or at least a vote, isn't that what democracy stands for?

    This video explains it quite well:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jg-qzJ-L_A


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    #2
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Breaking the Politics forum riles mate, you should really read them. Only a matter of time before this thread is locked/deleted.


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    #3
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    sink wrote: »
    Breaking the Politics forum riles mate, you should really read them. Only a matter of time before this thread is locked/deleted.
    We should really put all the vote for me videos into one thread for people to view them without them popping up every few posts


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    #4
    pyrogenx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭pyrogenx


    sink wrote: »
    Breaking the Politics forum riles mate, you should really read them. Only a matter of time before this thread is locked/deleted.

    I didn't realise it wasn't aloud to post a link on boards? I suppose i'm really starting a disgussion so it's not ok :S


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    #5
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    I didn't realise it wasn't aloud to post a link on boards? I suppose i'm really starting a disgussion so it's not ok :S

    So edit your post and start a discussion on the video. Why do you think it's good to watch? Any lookers in it? etc...


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    #6
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    I didn't realise it wasn't aloud to post a link on boards? I suppose i'm really starting a disgussion so it's not ok :S

    You posted a link to a video that has been posted a million times before (and is polluted with sh!te) and you didn't even comment on it yourself.




    EDIT: On a side note, Johnnyq, can I ask why you felt the need to advertise which 'celebrities' are voting no, should that make a difference?


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    #7
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    Interesting Point

    I've just this instant responded to the following post:
    bogwalrus wrote: »
    I do think it will be a yes vote anyway tomorrow. people always hesitate and get fearful of no decisions. This is what happened with nice 2nd time i believe. people were afraid to say no again. And thank fully they said yes:D

    (i bet i pissed off some no voters ...moiahahaha)

    Not really tbh#
    i am going to be so embarressed if it goes the no way. More embarrassed then when we sent dustin in for the Euro vision.

    this pissed me off more. At least I will respect whatever the outcome is.

    I think it's important for people to know that educated people do have opinions on this and that everyone who votes no isn't a "Loo-Laa" as our most estimed former taoiseach put it.


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    #8
    pyrogenx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭pyrogenx


    johnnyq wrote: »
    So edit your post and start a discussion on the video. Why do you think it's good to watch? Any lookers in it? etc...

    Done, thanks


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    #9
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    There's another great video about Lisbon Treaty made for all Irish voters..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZF1t8ugzM8


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    #10
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    johnnyq wrote: »
    I think it's important for people to know that educated people do have opinions on this and that everyone who votes no isn't a "Loo-Laa" as our most estimed former taoiseach put it.

    Ah ok so. Thought you were trying to appeal to those who look up to celebrity there for a while.


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    #11
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    If the lisbon threaty will be accepted by Ireland, we will not get another chance to vote on any future threaties regarding anything within europe. It is a self-amending treaty to end all treaties. This is our last chance to avoid it! If Ireland votes Yes, there will be no need for any treaty referendums... ever! In future we will thinking back and remembering how nice it was to have influence or at least a vote, isn't that what democracy stands for?

    This video explains it quite well:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jg-qzJ-L_A

    Well I didn't bother watching the video. But that statement is a complete lie.
    referendum commission wrote:
    Proposed Changes - Power to Change the Treaties

    At present the Treaties governing the EU are amended only by the Member States agreeing to an amending treaty which must then be approved by the Member States in accordance with their own constitutional traditions. In almost all cases this involves parliamentary approval. In some cases, for example in Ireland, a referendum may be required.

    The Lisbon Treaty now proposes to give the European Council (Heads of Government) the power to propose changes to certain parts of the governing Treaties. Any such changes cannot increase the competence of the EU. Any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council. This means that any national government may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, then in order for it to come into effect, it must be ratified by the Member States in accordance with their own constitutional traditions. This may require a referendum in Ireland as happens at present.

    The Lisbon Treaty also proposes to give the European Council the power to amend the Treaties so as to allow Qualified Majority Voting to operate in certain areas where unanimity is now required. It will also give them the power to apply the Ordinary Legislative Procedure in certain areas where a Special Legislative Procedure applies at present. Any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council.

    This means that any national government may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, any national parliament may prevent these changes coming into effect. Under the proposed amendment to the Constitution of Ireland the approval of the Dáil and Seanad will be required for Ireland to agree to such proposed changes. Such changes would not require a referendum in Ireland.

    The power to change from unanimity to Qualified Majority Voting or from the Special Legislative Procedure to a Ordinary Legislative Procedure does not extend to military and defence issues.

    It could apply, for example, to taxation where unanimity is required at present. However as outlined earlier in this website, any such proposed change could be vetoed by the Irish government.
    Amended Treaty on the European Union wrote:
    Article 48
    1. The Treaties may be amended in accordance with an ordinary revision procedure.
    They may also be amended in accordance with simplified revision procedures.
    Ordinary revision procedure
    2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the
    Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the
    Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the
    competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These proposals shall be
    submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments
    shall be notified.
    3. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the
    Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the
    proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a
    Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the
    Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament
    and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the
    case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine
    the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation
    to a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States as
    provided for in paragraph 4.
    The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the
    consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not
    be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the
    32
    European Council shall define the terms of reference for a conference of
    representatives of the governments of the Member States.
    4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be
    convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by
    common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.
    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member
    States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.
    5. If, two years after the signature of a treaty amending the Treaties, four fifths of
    the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have
    encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be
    referred to the European Council.
    Simplified revision procedures
    6. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the
    Commission may submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or
    part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the
    European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the Union.
    The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the
    provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
    The European Council shall act by unanimity after consulting the European
    Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case of
    institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into
    force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their
    respective constitutional requirements.
    The decision referred to in the second subparagraph shall not increase the
    competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.
    7. Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union or Title V of this
    Treaty provides for the Council to act by unanimity in a given area or case, the
    European Council may adopt a decision authorising the Council to act by a
    qualified majority in that area or in that case. This subparagraph shall not apply
    to decisions with military implications or those in the area of defence.
    Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union provides for
    legislative acts to be adopted by the Council in accordance with a special
    legislative procedure, the European Council may adopt a decision allowing for the
    adoption of such acts in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure.
    Any initiative taken by the European Council on the basis of the first or the
    second subparagraph shall be notified to the national Parliaments. If a national
    Parliament makes known its opposition within six months of the date of such
    notification, the decision referred to in the first or the second subparagraph shall
    not be adopted. In the absence of opposition, the European Council may adopt
    the decision.
    33
    For the adoption of the decisions referred to in the first and second
    subparagraphs, the European Council shall act by unanimity after obtaining the
    consent of the European Parliament, which shall be given by a majority of its
    component members.

    http://www.iiea.com/images/managed/publications_attachments/TEU_2008.pdf


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    #12
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    If the lisbon threaty will be accepted by Ireland, we will not get another chance to vote on any future threaties regarding anything within europe. It is a self-amending treaty to end all treaties. This is our last chance to avoid it! If Ireland votes Yes, there will be no need for any treaty referendums... ever! In future we will thinking back and remembering how nice it was to have influence or at least a vote, isn't that what democracy stands for?

    This video explains it quite well:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jg-qzJ-L_A
    Interesting points.

    There is the one voting issue that can be changed without a referendum i.e. the move from unaninimity to QMV on issues excluding defence. tmk

    Other than that, i'm not really convinced. We have the thing about the troops for example.

    But they have said that after the vote that this will be the last treaty for a while. i guess because a lot of issues are covered in this one. So maybe unless it's something specific to ireland, there won't be many more referendums? Anyone clarify?


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    #13
    pyrogenx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭pyrogenx


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    There's another great video about Lisbon Treaty made for all Irish voters..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZF1t8ugzM8


    But the lisbon threaty will not allow democracy! It allows for itself to change without ever asking the permission of the people any more. People voices will not be heard, same as the US right now.


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    #14
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    But the lisbon threaty will not allow democracy! It allows for itself to change without ever asking the permission of the people any more. People voices will not be heard, same as the US right now.

    For the VERY last time. If any amendment to Lisbon, requires a change in our constitution we will have to have a referendum.

    It is NOT 'The Treaty to End all Treaties'. Though that is fit for a Libertas poster.


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    #15
    pyrogenx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭pyrogenx


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Interesting points.

    There is the one voting issue that can be changed without a referendum i.e. the move from unaninimity to QMV on issues excluding defence. tmk

    Other than that, i'm not really convinced. We have the thing about the troops for example.

    But they have said that after the vote that this will be the last treaty for a while. i guess because a lot of issues are covered in this one. So maybe unless it's something specific to ireland, there won't be many more referendums? Anyone clarify?

    I suppose the reason why there won't be any more threaties for a long time after this one, because it allows itself to be changed without having to hold another referendum.


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    #16
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    But the lisbon threaty will not allow democracy! It allows for itself to change without ever asking the permission of the people any more. People voices will not be heard, same as the US right now.

    Please read the referendum commissions statement on the matter and article 48 of the amended Treaty on the European Union posted above and you will see you arguments are baseless and are complete lies by made some deceitful no campaigns.


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    #17
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    There's another great video about Lisbon Treaty made for all Irish voters..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZF1t8ugzM8
    OMG Fianna Fail Propaganda!!! My Eyes My Eyes!!!

    But seriously unless you want to be banned you'd want to add some comment about why that video is good? Why do you support it's tendencies? Can music to a video really be that bad? At least make some effort.


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    #18
    pyrogenx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭pyrogenx


    Arabel wrote: »
    For the VERY last time. If any amendment to Lisbon, requires a change in our constitution we will have to have a referendum.

    It is NOT 'The Treaty to End all Treaties'. Though that is fit for a Libertas poster.

    Are changes in member countries constitution not already been unlocked by lisbon?


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    #19
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    But the lisbon threaty will not allow democracy! It allows for itself to change without ever asking the permission of the people any more. People voices will not be heard, same as the US right now.

    Nope. EU legislation system will be much better after Lisbon Treaty than it is today.

    Just read this great post written by sink:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56206650&postcount=303


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    #20
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    Are changes in member countries constitution not already been unlocked by lisbon?

    No they are not, the only people who can change the constitution are the people of Ireland through referenda. It's the case that EU law supersedes Irish law and has done since 1973, but so far as we know all EU laws are compatible with Irish law.
    And any law that comes into being should also be compatible with our constitution.


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    #21
    pyrogenx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭pyrogenx


    sink wrote: »
    No they are not, the only people who can change the constitution are the people of Ireland through referenda. It's the case that EU law supersedes Irish law and has done since 1973, but so far as we know all EU laws are compatible with Irish law.
    And any law that comes into being should also be compatible with our constitution.

    But qualified majority voting means that the power will be with Brussels, not the people of each member state, here's a quote:
    "The Lisbon Treaty provides for more than 60 areas of decision making from unanimity at present to qualified majority voting. Some of those areas include decision-making on immigration, sport, culture, transport and the appointment of the European President and Foreign Minister."

    sry, i keep learning, done a lot of research nevertheless.


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    #22
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    But qualified majority voting means that the power will be with Brussels, not the people of each member state, here's a quote:
    "The Lisbon Treaty provides for more than 60 areas of decision making from unanimity at present to qualified majority voting. Some of those areas include decision-making on immigration, sport, culture, transport and the appointment of the European President and Foreign Minister."

    sry, i keep learning, done a lot of research nevertheless.
    The quest for learning new things about this treaty never ends, I bet several people have got PhD's out of it already.

    You are correct about the loss of vetos (30 + in areas we cannot opt out of and 30 we can) and it is up to you if you think it's worth the sacrifice. Personally no, but there are valid points on both sides.


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    #23
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,075 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    pyrogenx wrote: »
    But qualified majority voting means that the power will be with Brussels, not the people of each member state,

    The people doing QMV are the member states as represented by their democratically elected governments.
    pyrogenx wrote: »
    here's a quote: "The Lisbon Treaty provides for more than 60 areas of decision making from unanimity at present to qualified majority voting. Some of those areas include decision-making on immigration, sport, culture, transport and the appointment of the European President and Foreign Minister."

    I think Scofflaw has shown that it's actually 30ish areas that move to QMV. It's only 60 if you split hairs.


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    #24
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    johnnyq wrote: »
    The quest for learning new things about this treaty never ends, I bet several people have got PhD's out of it already.

    You are correct about the loss of vetos (30 + in areas we cannot opt out of and 30 we can) and it is up to you if you think it's worth the sacrifice. Personally no, but there are valid points on both sides.

    One of the things about IrlConor's analysis of how the millions of combinations of QMV votes work out that I liked was that it suggested (to me, anyway) that the new system compensated for loss of vetoes by making it just a little bit harder for everyone to get legislation passed.

    It was almost as if, instead of doing a noddy job, they'd actually sat down and run simulations in advance, trying to come up with a balanced system! Who could have guessed they might actually have thought about it?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #25
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    johnnyq wrote: »
    I think it's important for people to know that educated people do have opinions on this and that everyone who votes no isn't a "Loo-Laa" as our most estimed former taoiseach put it.
    You might want to remove Sinead O'Connor then.


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