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Ireland 1918 - British army

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  • 15-10-2014 7:44am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭


    I am writing a novel set in 1918 in Dublin. Would anyone be able to enlighten me if Irish woman at this time would have had relationships with someone in the English army in Dublin or were most gone by this stage and after we gained Independence in 1919 did any ever have call to come back. Its not a love novel but this is one aspect to add conflict to the story I am exploring.

    I am predominantly using the internet and have ordered a book on that era from the library.

    Any help appreciated.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    We didn't gain independence until 1922. There was significant garrison in Dublin in 1918, and it got much larger before being withdrawn in 1922. Note that many members of the British garrison - especially in the enlisted ranks - were Irish, not English. Love affairs between members of the British garrison and Dublin women were common. And, notoriously, the British garrison also supported a thriving sex trade in Dublin, which had pretty much shrunk to a shadow of its former self within a few years after 1922.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    If you want your book to be factually correct, you need to be aware that the English army hasn't existed since 1707.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    If you want your book to be factually correct, you need to be aware that the English army hasn't existed since 1707.

    Main article: History of the British Army

    John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, was one of the first generals in the British Army, fighting campaigns in the War of the Spanish Succession.
    Shortly after the Act of Union in 1707 the English Army and Scottish and Irish regiments were amalgamated to form the British Army. The order of seniority of the most senior line regiments in the British Army is based on the order of seniority in the English army. Scottish and Irish regiments were only allowed to take a rank in the English army from the date of their arrival in England or the date when they were first placed on the English establishment. For example, in 1694 a board of general officers was convened to decide the rank of English, Irish and Scots regiments serving in the Netherlands; the regiment that became known as the Scots Greys were designated as the 4th Dragoons because there were three English regiments raised prior to 1688 when the Scots Greys were first placed on the English establishment. In 1713, when a new board of general officers was convened to decide upon the rank of several regiments, the seniority of the Scots Greys was reassessed and based on their entry into England in June 1685. At that time there was only one English regiment of dragoons, and so after some delay the Scots Greys obtained the rank of 2nd Dragoons in the British Army.[2]

    If you say the British army didn't exist what was it replaced by? Above it says it was amalgamated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    femur61 wrote: »
    If you say the British army didn't exist what was it replaced by? Above it says it was amalgamated.
    He doesn't say the British Army didn't exist; he says the English Army didn't exist after 1707.

    Prior to 1707, there were three armies available to the control of the British crown; the English Army, which was raised and maintained under the authority of legislation of the English Parliament and financed out of the revenues of the Kingdom of England, the Scottish Army and the Irish Army. (You can guess how the Scottish and Irish armies were raised, maintained, and financed, I imagine.) Occasionally military units would transfer from one army to another, e.g. regiments raised in Scotland would be transferred to the English military establishment, after which they were paid out of English taxes. In 1707 the separate English and Scottish armies ceased to exist, and they were replaced by the British Army. Some time shortly after 1801 the same thing happened to the separate Irish military establishment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He doesn't say the British Army didn't exist; he says the English Army didn't exist after 1707.

    Prior to 1707, there were three armies available to the control of the British crown; the English Army, which was raised and maintained under the authority of legislation of the English Parliament and financed out of the revenues of the Kingdom of England, the Scottish Army and the Irish Army. (You can guess how the Scottish and Irish armies were raised, maintained, and financed, I imagine.) Occasionally military units would transfer from one army to another, e.g. regiments raised in Scotland would be transferred to the English military establishment, after which they were paid out of English taxes. In 1707 the separate English and Scottish armies ceased to exist, and they were replaced by the British Army. Some time shortly after 1801 the same thing happened to the separate Irish military establishment.

    Thanks, my mistake. The idea for the novel is only in its infancy, I now wished I had listened more to my history in school because I am conducting a major lesson in Irish history.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Note that many members of the British garrison - especially in the enlisted ranks - were Irish, not English.


    Do you have any numbers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    femur61 wrote: »
    Thanks, my mistake. The idea for the novel is only in its infancy, I now wished I had listened more to my history in school because I am conducting a major lesson in Irish history.

    You may want to put together a simple timeline from say 1912 onwards. If you have time, look in on the FutureLearn Irish Lives in War and Revolution course resources

    https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/irish-history/

    In 1916, Ireland had mainly Irish Regiments in situ hence most involved in the early stages of the suppression of the Easter Rising were Irish. Later policy meant that Irish regiments were not stationed in Ireland (other than training/recruitment units)

    A bit later than 1918, but the following page shows the Orbat (Order of Battle) in Ireland and other locations the BA were involved in

    http://www.orbat.com/site/history/historical/uk/ops1919-39.html

    If looking at the viewpoint of a British soldier, British Voices by William Sheehan is worth a read

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Voices-Irish-Independence-1918-1921/dp/1905172370


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    You may want to put together a simple timeline from say 1912 onwards. If you have time, look in on the FutureLearn Irish Lives in War and Revolution course resources

    https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/irish-history/

    In 1916, Ireland had mainly Irish Regiments in situ hence most involved in the early stages of the suppression of the Easter Rising were Irish. Later policy meant that Irish regiments were not stationed in Ireland (other than training/recruitment units)

    A bit later than 1918, but the following page shows the Orbat (Order of Battle) in Ireland and other locations the BA were involved in

    http://www.orbat.com/site/history/historical/uk/ops1919-39.html

    If looking at the viewpoint of a British soldier, British Voices by William Sheehan is worth a read

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Voices-Irish-Independence-1918-1921/dp/1905172370

    Thanks. Unfortunately when I found the Future learn course it was finished. I have tried to contact them to see if they are running it again. It looks exactly what I am looking for. They might put it up on You Tube

    I found reading statements on The Bureau of Military History website of people who were involved in activities during that period a great place to get a feel for the time and era.

    I will try the local library first for that book. I love research and have to discipline myself to actually do some writing!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous



    If looking at the viewpoint of a British soldier, British Voices by William Sheehan is worth a read

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Voices-Irish-Independence-1918-1921/dp/1905172370
    Would you recommend that book for a general read? I read that most of the accounts are from officers which wouldn't interest me so much. Also are any of them Irish?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Would you recommend that book for a general read? I read that most of the accounts are from officers which wouldn't interest me so much. Also are any of them Irish?

    I would recommend the book (as well as Sheehan's Hearts and Mines and Fighting for Dublin) but you are right that most accounts are from officers - the opening chapter is from Private J P Swindlehurst, Lancashire Fusiliers; the other chapters are all officers (2 Navy, 1 RAF, remainder Army). Montgomery is the only one with a glimmer of an Irish connection.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    I would recommend the book (as well as Sheehan's Hearts and Mines and Fighting for Dublin) but you are right that most accounts are from officers - the opening chapter is from Private J P Swindlehurst, Lancashire Fusiliers; the other chapters are all officers (2 Navy, 1 RAF, remainder Army). Montgomery is the only one with a glimmer of an Irish connection.
    Montgomery to Colonel Arthur Percival of the Essex Regiment -

    "Personally, my whole attention was given to defeating the rebels but it never bothered me a bit how many houses were burnt. I think I regarded all civilians as 'Shinners' and I never had any dealings with any of them. My own view is that to win a war of this sort, you must be ruthless. Olivier Cromwell, or the Germans, would have settled it in a very short time. Nowadays public opinion precludes such methods, the nation would never allow it, and the politicians would lose their jobs if they sanctioned it. "


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