The Irish at Gettysburg and Antietam

MarchDub · 11-11-2009 2:18pm #1

Just thought I would post this today, Veterans Day in the US. The Irish found themselves in many far flung battles and the American Civil War is one of the most interesting IMO. There is a large memorial on the battlefield in Gettysburg in Pennsylvania on the spot where the Irish Brigade fought and so many of them died. There is another large Irish memorial at the battlefield in Antietam, south of the Gettysburg site in rural Maryland.

I have been to both and they are impressive in how the battlefields have been preserved.

http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/gettysbu.html

http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/antietam.html

http://www.history.army.mil/topics/ethnic/irish/antietam.htm

A footnote: the best selling items in the gift-shops are items with the Irish Brigade flag on them - including baseball hats!

brianthebard · 11-11-2009 2:51pm

Interesting topic. There was a statue erected in the last few years in Ballymote, Co. Sligo to a general Corcoran who afaik was involved in the Civil war in the US (I don't even know on which side though!) A few years ago my Granddad was trying to find his granddad's grave and uncovered some interesting facts about him, including that he apparently took part in a war in the US on behalf of a rich man (presumably was paid to take his place). Now I've no idea of the accuracy of this story but it was still interesting to hear about.

Morlar · 11-11-2009 3:46pm

There are also some Irish related items from both the confederate and yankee side in Collins Barracks military museum in Dublin, including uniforms and battle flags & personal items.

MarchDub · 11-11-2009 3:55pm

brianthebard wrote: »

Interesting topic. There was a statue erected in the last few years in Ballymote, Co. Sligo to a general Corcoran who afaik was involved in the Civil war in the US (I don't even know on which side though!)

Brigadier-General Michael Corcoran was in the 69th Infantry Regiment [New York] - known as the Irish Brigade. They were mostly made up of Irish immigrants and sons of Irish immigrants- many of them former Young Irelanders. They were on the Union side but the name they went by "Fighting 69th" was reputedly given to them by General Robert E Lee [Confederate leader] because he admired their ability to fight and hold positions they took. The Irish brigade on the battlefield were effective in their contribution in turning back Lee's army at Antietam and not giving him the victory he hoped he would have in Maryland.

There are iconic paintings of Major General Thomas Francis Meagher – the Young Irelander - leading the Irish into battle lining the walls of many Civil War memorial sites in the US.

Eoinp · 11-11-2009 5:52pm

I always find it amusing that we had heroes on the Confederate side too (we tend to overlook them though). Read a great manuscript on Dick Dowling the hero of The Battle of Sabine Pass, I wanted to publish it in Ireland but the team couldn't be convinced.
There is a note here on him and the battle:
http://georgiaheritagecouncil.org/site2/commentary/johnson-confederate-history-minute11.phtml

MarchDub · 11-11-2009 7:53pm

Eoinp wrote: »

I always find it amusing that we had heroes on the Confederate side too (we tend to overlook them though). Read a great manuscript on Dick Dowling the hero of The Battle of Sabine Pass, I wanted to publish it in Ireland but the team couldn't be convinced.
There is a note here on him and the battle:
http://georgiaheritagecouncil.org/site2/commentary/johnson-confederate-history-minute11.phtml

This is the same as the Civil War enactors and the principal battle sites that I have visited in the US. I think this is probably because the Irish numbers are greater on the Union side - as are the casualties. Also the Irish Brigade impacted back on Irish history in the connection with the Fenians - and the Canadian invasion by Irish Civil War vets.

There is growing interest as you say in the Irish of the south - I picked up a book somewhere in the Carolinas a few years ago that you might know or be interested in: The Irish of the South 1815-1877. Don’t know if it was ever published in Ireland. It was published in the US by The University of North Carolina Press.

R.Dub.Fusilier · 11-11-2009 10:18pm

Yes indeed the Irish took both sides in the US Civil War and the part taken by those on the confederate side is forgotten , for the most part. Patrick Cleburne " The Stonewall Of The West" from Cork was one of the highest ranking men in that army. His father was a doctor and a landlord who , during the famine, was one of the few who didn’t raise rents and evict his tenants but made up the shortfall with his own money. Patrick Cleburne joined the British army in Ireland , Madras Fusiliers, hoping to travel abroad but spent his time in Ireland. While in the USA he also confronted the anti-Irish Nativist Party.

Fenians and Young Irelanders fought on both sides also. John Mitchel who was imprisoned in Australia sided with the confederates and had two sons killed and another lost an arm. There is a plaque in the republican plot in Glasnevin Cemetery in memory of Mitchels two sons.

I cant remember the battle but the story goes that during one fight in which the Union Irish Brigade was slaughtered their flag was picked up by an Irish volunteer on the Confederate side at considerable risk to himself and was shot by his own side. He made his way to the Union Irish camp to give it back to T.F. Meagher. He was brought to TFM and handed him the flag. TFM asked him if he wanted to stay in his camp but he opted to go back to his own men.

MarchDub · 12-11-2009 2:44am

Just dug out some of the literature I picked up at the battlefields - according to the records there were four Irish born Generals on the Confederate side during the Civil War and twelve Irish born Generals on the Union side and "at least forty Federal [Union] units were composed primarily of Irishmen". It further states that "It is not possible to give a figure for the total number of Irishmen who fought during the Civil War [but]the number would run into the thousands".

I was at the re-enactment of the Gettysburg battle a few years ago and met "Meagher" - they really do an amazing job during the days of the re-enactment with the participants attempting to stay in character during the entire time - even when walking along the street from the "camps".

draoicht · 13-11-2009 7:01pm

I remember watching the film “Gods and Generals” a few years ago and being moved by the scene where The Irish Brigade attacks Marye's Heights at the Battle of Fredericksburg.

What made it poignant was that among the defenders on Marye's Heights were a regiment from Georgia made up mostly of Irishmen.

Heres the clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcm8C3xpaRg

Apparently The Irish Brigade lost 4000 men during The Civil War, I'd be curious to know how many Irishmen fought in the war on both sides.
Considering it was less than 20 years since the famine and people were emigrating from Ireland in huge numbers.

R.Dub.Fusilier · 13-11-2009 10:39pm

draoicht wrote: »

I remember watching the film “Gods and Generals” a few years ago and being moved by the scene where The Irish Brigade attacks Marye's Heights at the Battle of Fredericksburg.

What made it poignant was that among the defenders on Marye's Heights were a regiment from Georgia made up mostly of Irishmen.

Brilliant film i have watched it a couple of times and the scene above i always found very moving.

MarchDub · 13-11-2009 10:46pm

draoicht wrote: »

Apparently The Irish Brigade lost 4000 men during The Civil War, I'd be curious to know how many Irishmen fought in the war on both sides.
Considering it was less than 20 years since the famine and people were emigrating from Ireland in huge numbers.

Great video thanks! I didn't see this film but I heard that some African American reviewers didn't like the way it portrayed some freed slaves as being on the Confederate side and thereby giving an incorrect impression of the overwhelming slave attitudes. Do you remember if this is true?

Found these links to info on the Civil War. The second link gives total casualties and if you scroll down to the Irish info says :

The Irish Brigade, Union, had a total muster Of 7,000 during the war, and returned to New York in '65 with 1,000. One company was down to seven men. The 69th New York of this brigade lost 16 of 19 officers, and had 75 per cent casualties among enlisted men.
In the Irish Brigade, Confederate, from Louisiana, Company A dwindled from 90 men to 3 men and an officer in March, '65. Company B went from 100 men to 2.

This would mean that approx 6,000 were lost from the Union Irish Brigade.

The third link claims that 150,000 Irish joined in the war on the Union side.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/potpourr.htm

http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm

http://www.civilwarhome.com/irish.htm

draoicht · 14-11-2009 4:24pm

MarchDub wrote: »

I heard that some African American reviewers didn't like the way it portrayed some freed slaves as being on the Confederate side and thereby giving an incorrect impression of the overwhelming slave attitudes. Do you remember if this is true?

It’s a few years since I seen it so I don’t remember how slavery is treated in the film, maybe R.Dub.Fusilier remembers.
The film is mostly about Stonewall Jackson and focuses more on the Confederate forces during the first half of the war, so this could be why it was critisized for its depiction of slavery.

What I do remember is how authentic it looked, most of the soldiers onscreen are from civil war re-enactment groups and the uniforms, equipment and weapons were their own.

It’s over 3 and a half hours long and at times it feels like you’re watching a documentary, it’s definitely well worth a look if you’re interested in The Civil War.

The same people made “Gettysburg”, based on the book by Michael Shaara who also wrote “Gods and Generals”.
This is over 4 hours long and I liked it more than “Gods and Generals”.
Shaara wrote three books, the last one about the final part of The Civil War, but it doesn’t look like the third will be filmed as “Gods and Generals” was a commercial flop.

I had a look for figures for The Irish in the Civil War and found this http://www.irishfreedom.net/Cultural/Articles/The%20American%20Irish%20in%20the%20Civil%20War.htm
It states that 170,000 native Irish and 400,000 Irish-Americans fought for The Union and at least 60,000 for The Confederacy.
On the Union side, these figures mean that over 25% were Irish or of Irish descent.

Eoinp · 16-11-2009 1:06pm

draoicht wrote: »

I remember watching the film “Gods and Generals” a few years ago and being moved by the scene where The Irish Brigade attacks Marye's Heights at the Battle of Fredericksburg.

What made it poignant was that among the defenders on Marye's Heights were a regiment from Georgia made up mostly of Irishmen.

Heres the clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcm8C3xpaRg

Apparently The Irish Brigade lost 4000 men during The Civil War, I'd be curious to know how many Irishmen fought in the war on both sides.
Considering it was less than 20 years since the famine and people were emigrating from Ireland in huge numbers.

What always strikes me about scenes like this is the terrifying stupidity of frontal assaults in mass formation against emplaced or dug in troops with muskets or rifles!

You'd swear non one learned the lesson of the British victories against Napoleons massed columns! So sad and pointless!

Quite a moving clip though!
Eoin

MarchDub · 16-11-2009 1:48pm

draoicht wrote: »

It’s a few years since I seen it so I don’t remember how slavery is treated in the film, maybe R.Dub.Fusilier remembers.
The film is mostly about Stonewall Jackson and focuses more on the Confederate forces during the first half of the war, so this could be why it was critisized for its depiction of slavery.

What I do remember is how authentic it looked, most of the soldiers onscreen are from civil war re-enactment groups and the uniforms, equipment and weapons were their own.

It’s over 3 and a half hours long and at times it feels like you’re watching a documentary, it’s definitely well worth a look if you’re interested in The Civil War.

The same people made “Gettysburg”, based on the book by Michael Shaara who also wrote “Gods and Generals”.
This is over 4 hours long and I liked it more than “Gods and Generals”.
Shaara wrote three books, the last one about the final part of The Civil War, but it doesn’t look like the third will be filmed as “Gods and Generals” was a commercial flop.

I had a look for figures for The Irish in the Civil War and found this http://www.irishfreedom.net/Cultural/Articles/The%20American%20Irish%20in%20the%20Civil%20War.htm
It states that 170,000 native Irish and 400,000 Irish-Americans fought for The Union and at least 60,000 for The Confederacy.
On the Union side, these figures mean that over 25% were Irish or of Irish descent.

Thanks. I know the "Gettysburg" film and liked it very much. AFAIK it was the only time that the actual Battlefield at Gettysburg was ever allowed to be used for filming. I didn't know that the same production people made a "prequel". I have found a copy of "Gods and Generals" on Amazon and am buying a copy of it.

The issue of the Confederate side and slavery is still a heightened debate in the US. The Confederate flag causes problems when flown in any official place and some southern states have passed laws against displaying it on state/public buildings. So its not surprising that any movie about the Southern side in the civil war would involve a debate about how slavery is dealt with.

R.Dub.Fusilier · 16-11-2009 3:20pm

draoicht wrote: »

It’s a few years since I seen it so I don’t remember how slavery is treated in the film, maybe R.Dub.Fusilier remembers.

as far as i remember slavery wasnt touched on as the film was set around Jackson and his campaigns and was not about the politics of the war. if i remember rightly there was a black actress , in the special features, that contridicited a historian when he said that the war did not start about slavery. i read , not on the net, somewhere that there is more monuments in the old Confederate states to black Americans who fought for the confederacy than in the northern states to the same.

MarchDub · 16-11-2009 4:56pm

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

as far as i remember slavery wasnt touched on as the film was set around Jackson and his campaigns and was not about the politics of the war. if i remember rightly there was a black actress , in the special features, that contridicited a historian when he said that the war did not start about slavery. i read , not on the net, somewhere that there is more monuments in the old Confederate states to black Americans who fought for the confederacy than in the northern states to the same.

Thanks. Yes, the debate is still going on about the significance that slavery played in the war. I am actually doing some research at the moment on [former slave] Frederick Douglass's papers and his time in Ireland - very interesting BTW - but became interested in other aspects of his life also. I just found this site which is an official US Gov Park Service site on the Civil War:

It begins with a quote from Douglass and part of the article reads regarding Black participation in the Civil War

In January, 1864, General Patrick Cleburne and several other Confederate officers in the Army of the Tennessee proposed using slaves as soldiers since the Union was using black troops. Cleburne recommended offering slaves their freedom if they fought and survived. Confederate President Jefferson Davis refused to consider Cleburne's proposal and forbade further discussion of the idea. The concept, however, did not die. By the fall of 1864, the South was losing more and more ground, and some believed that only by arming the slaves could defeat be averted. On March 13, the Confederate Congress passed General Order 14, and President Davis signed the order into law. The order was issued March 23, 1865, but only a few African American companies were raised, and the war ended before they could be used in battle.

http://www.itd.nps.gov/cwss/history/aa_history.htm

The same site allows for a search for any name - so any Irish participation can also be traced by anyone looking up a relative.

Manic Moran · 17-11-2009 6:04am

The tradition of Irishmen going around and fighting in other people's wars continues.

I think it's because we like to fight, but are too clever to fight in the home country.

NTM

Jesus. · 09-05-2015 9:16pm

A new monument to the Irish contribution in the American Civil War was unveiled yesterday in Ballymote. Its the second such monument in the town.

tac foley · 12-05-2015 11:23am

Eoinp wrote: »

What always strikes me about scenes like this is the terrifying stupidity of frontal assaults in mass formation against emplaced or dug in troops with muskets or rifles!

You'd swear non one learned the lesson of the British victories against Napoleons massed columns! So sad and pointless!

Quite a moving clip though!
Eoin

It was a lesson that was not learned again in 1914....only this time the slaughter was ten times greater due to the numbers of machine guns in use by the opposition.

If you want to see the utter futility and waste of young lives in war, go to Beaumont Hamel, where, in the morning of July 1st 1916, the Newfoundland & Labrador Regiment went from a regiment of over 700 officers and men to just about two platoons - in three hours.

Quote - 'The Newfoundland Regiment had been almost wiped out. When roll call was taken, only 68 men answered their names - 324 were killed, or missing and presumed dead, and 386 were wounded.'

I've been to Beaumont Hamel a number of times, as most Canadians in Europe do at some time or another, and usually cried my eyes out, too. There you can still walk along the trenches on both sides, and see how and why it all happened the way it did.

tac

kildarejohn · 13-05-2015 9:05am

Getting back to the Irish at Gettysburg - I tracked a distant relative who was wounded with the 73rd NY Infantry - AKA 2nd Fire Zouaves - at Gettysburg. I have found a few online accounts of 73rd NY at GBurg, but nothing very detailed, and no map showing their location etc. Anyone know of any good sources for further info?

galwaycyclist · 13-05-2015 6:53pm

kildarejohn wrote: »

Getting back to the Irish at Gettysburg - I tracked a distant relative who was wounded with the 73rd NY Infantry - AKA 2nd Fire Zouaves - at Gettysburg. I have found a few online accounts of 73rd NY at GBurg, but nothing very detailed, and no map showing their location etc. Anyone know of any good sources for further info?

I would also be interested in tips on tracking Gettysburg casualties. One of my great great grandfathers served in one of the Union's Baltimore regiments and according to one family source was wounded at Gettysburg. That said, last time I looked into it, I could not place what I think was his regiment at that battle. It may be someone has their battles mixed up but also possible there was fluidity of assignment between the Baltimore regiments. I'd like to clear it up either way. I reckon he was wounded somewhere because it seems he had some kind of pension specific for wounded veterans. Of course if I got official evidence for the pension thing it would be a big move forward.

whisky_galore · 14-05-2015 2:54pm

Morlar wrote: »

There are also some Irish related items from both the confederate and yankee side in Collins Barracks military museum in Dublin, including uniforms and battle flags & personal items.

A Limerick company made many of the uniforms: the derelict former Tait factory still stands in the city.

http://irishamericancivilwar.com/2010/05/11/clothing-the-confederacy-taits-of%C2%A0limerick/

Clothing the Confederacy: Taits of Limerick

The remarkable story of the Confederate uniforms made in Limerick and shipped to the South through the Federal Blockade.
Sir Peter Tait was born in Scotland in 1828, but moved to Limerick at a young age. In 1844 he obtained a job working as a shop assistant in the Cumine and Mitchell department store. However, when trade grew slow Tait lost his position, forcing him to display the first signs of his entrepreneurial ability. He purchased a basket and went around the city selling goods, mainly shirts, to locals and sailors alike (Kemmy 1988: 82). Tait realised that there was a future in the sale of clothing, and in 1850 he rented rooms on Bedford Row and took on his first employees in order to increase his shirt production. Within three years he was advertising for 500 additional staff (Hannan 1994: 26). His pioneering use of the singer sewing machine allowed him to further increase his level of uniform production, and soon military contracts began to materialise. His most lucrative clients were the British Army, with Tait’s factory producing uniforms that were used in the Crimean War. He produced some 120,000 uniforms for that army between 1856 and 1858 (Burt 2008: 28). Tait’s success led to him moving to larger premises on Edward Street, with 1300 staff working for the company in 1858 (Kemmy 1988: 83).

Peter Tait and Limerick’s connection with the Confederacy began in earnest in December 1863, when 50,000 caps, greatcoats, jackets, trousers, shirts, blankets, boots, stockings and haversacks were ordered by the Confederate Government. Tait also entered into a separate contract with the State of Alabama in June 1864 (Burt 2008: 28-29). In order to fulfill his contract Tait had to navigate one rather tricky obstacle- the Federal Blockade of southern ports. He employed ships such as the Evelyn to run the blockade. The Evelyn would go on to run the blockade five times, with her last departure from Foynes, Co. Limerick in October 1864; she would not return until September 1865 (Kemmy 1988: 83). Another of the ships to carry Tait uniforms was the Condor, which ran aground off Fort Fisher in North Carolina in late 1864. Though her cargo was safely loaded onto another ship and brought ashore, famous Confederate agent Rose O’Neal Greenhow who had been returning from Europe aboard the Condor was drowned (Burt 2008: 29).

A number of Tait Confederate jackets survive, mainly due to the fact that they were first issued late in the war. The surviving examples are of cadet grey kersey with linen lining, and are further identifiable through their eight-button front, with five piece bodies, two piece sleeves and wool broadcloth collars (Jensen 1989). Tait of Limerick buttons are also regularly recovered by relic hunters on former civil war sites, with the backmark ‘P. Tait & Co./Limerick’. The most common associations for both the jackets and the buttons are with Northeastern Carolina, the Petersburg Campaign and the Appomattox Campaign (Jensen 1989). Peter Tait continued to prosper despite the fall of the Confederacy, and he became mayor of Limerick between 1866 and 1868. However following this his association with the city faded somewhat as he pursued other business ventures abroad. His factory closed in 1875 (although it was later reopened under new management) and Tait himself died in Russia in 1890, while trying to establish a turkish cigarette factory (Kemmy 1988: 85). His name lives on in Limerick through the Tait Clock in the city which was built in his honour. As for his Confederate jackets, some are on display in the United States, while one is also on exhibition at the National Museum of Ireland’s Soldiers & Chief’s exhibition in Collins Barracks, Dublin, where it is on loan from the Museum of the Confederacy.

Bibliography & Further Reading
Burt, David 2008. ‘Peter Tait, The Man, the Firm and the Uniforms Supplied to the Confederate States’in the Civil War Historian Magazine September/October 2008.
Hannan, Kevin 1994. ‘Sir Peter Tait’ in The Old Limerick Journal Volume 31, 1994.
Jensen, Leslie D. 1989. ‘A Survey of Confederate Central Government Quartermaster Issue Jackets’ accessed at The Company of Military Historians website May 2010
Kemmy, Jim 1988. ‘The Taits in Limerick and Melbourne’ in The Old Limerick Journal Volume 23, Spring 1988.
Waite, John E. 2005. Peter Tait: A Remarkable Story

The Irish at Gettysburg and Antietam

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