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Men, Know Your Place!

2

Comments

  • #52
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    diveout wrote: »
    To me it's like don't open out a map in the middle of big city and target yourself as a tourist easy to mug. It just makes sense.

    Taking that analogy, the argument is made that as a society we should be teaching men not to mug tourists. Which Implies that every single man does this. Then I've seen lots of times* that if someone then says "that's unfair assuming all men would do that", it is met with either ridicule or aggressiveness**. In short, closing all chance of actually discussing the issue in a calm and respectful manner to all concerned. You end up saying "feck it, I'm not getting involved in this conversation.", which can then be taken as being dismissive of the issue.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    *Not all the time, but a large percentage in my experience. Suggesting that quite a lot of people avoid talking about the issue for whatever reasons they may have.
    ** For being met with ridicule or aggressiveness, just look at the responses in the facebook link in post#1


  • #53
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    Taking that analogy, the argument is made that as a society we should be teaching men not to mug tourists. Which Implies that every single man does this. Then I've seen lots of times* that if someone then says "that's unfair assuming all men would do that", it is met with either ridicule or aggressiveness**. In short, closing all chance of actually discussing the issue in a calm and respectful manner to all concerned. You end up saying "feck it, I'm not getting involved in this conversation." which is then taken as being dismissive of the issue.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    *Not all the time, but a large percentage in my experience.
    ** For being met with ridicule or aggressiveness, just look at the responses in the facebook link in post#1

    Absolutely. It's a double bind.


  • #54
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,669 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Very irritating woman in that video, bad mouthing all men and calling Ireland "this fooking country", if she doesn't like it here let her clear off back to where she came from.


  • #55
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    Wibbs wrote: »
    +1000. If you pass out drunk and for "fun" I decide to repeatedly kick you in the nuts, I am the dickhead 100% no arguments dickhead. You being drunk has pretty much nothing to do with it. Daft to get that drunk? Sure, but you should expect a level of background decency and restraint from those around you to not injure you. Would a non scumbag kick a drunken man in the street? Nope. Someone who finger rapes a passed out woman and videos it FFS, is pure scum and nothing less.

    Right but scumbags exist. It's not a pollyanna world, let's face it. I guess that is what it comes down to, are your expectations.... yeah you can expect a level of background decency, up to a point. You just don't really know.. and that's not to say assume the worst. When you become a parent for example, hello world of paranoia onto your kids and its really robbing them of learning the life skill of discernment. And I think this lack of discernment has caught like wildfire.

    As for the ROtherham cases, oh wow. Just when you think you can't be shocked anymore out something comes. And I agree with you but I think they are afraid of the racial overtones of coming out with that. It kind of confirms my suspicions that contemporary feminism is for white middle class women who need their smoothie makers repaired.


  • #56
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I posted this in the Sexism thread and I think it's relevant here too. The BBC reported that a few American chaps had developed nail polish/varnish that changed colour upon contact with some date rape drugs, presumably the likes of GBH, rohypnol, etc. Cue accusations of victim-blaming.
    It's been pointed out to me that there've been no proven cases of date rape drug use in Ireland but it seems like a fairly minor precaution for someone in the US or somewhere where the practice is more frequent.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-28958365

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #57
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    It's a good idea - handy little tool to have. But it would be victim-blaming if someone was criticised for not using it.
    raindog.promo wrote: »
    Taking that analogy, the argument is made that as a society we should be teaching men not to mug tourists. Which Implies that every single man does this.
    Society should be teaching muggers not to mug.


  • #58
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    It's a good idea - handy little tool to have. But it would be victim-blaming if someone was criticised for not using it.

    Society should be teaching muggers not to mug.

    That is never going to happen. Ever.

    People are hungry. People get addicted to drugs. People owe the mob money.

    It's like saying society should teach people how not to be people. Won't happen.


  • #59
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    It's a good idea - handy little tool to have. But it would be victim-blaming if someone was criticised for not using it.

    That is fair enough. It's a bit more complicated than campaigners and the media would have us believe. Personally, I think it's a choice for each woman and putting this on the market is giving them that choice. That's my limited perspective anyway.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #60
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    diveout wrote: »
    That is never going to happen. Ever.

    People are hungry. People get addicted to drugs. People owe the mob money.

    It's like saying society should teach people how not to be people. Won't happen.

    This is purely conjecture on my part but I picture your average mugger as a jobless, uneducated benefits claimant who's probably had a rough upbringing. Better access to education coupled with social welfare reform would probably slice the amount of muggings annually to a mere fraction of the current statistic. That's only my opinion and it's off topic. I'll just finish saying that problems like this require a grassroots approach with a long term plan and not the magic overnight solution newspapers and campaigners seem to think is possible. Again, conjecture from myself.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #61
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    Society should be teaching muggers not to mug.

    You see, I don't know what your point is here. Any analogy will eventually be shown to be counter-productive to what it's trying to highlight.

    Are you saying that society thinks it is alright to mug people?

    I thought your other comments on the thread were very good (not that anyone's comments have to meet with my approval) but this remark is a bit glib.


  • #62
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    diveout wrote: »
    That is never going to happen. Ever.

    People are hungry. People get addicted to drugs. People owe the mob money.

    It's like saying society should teach people how not to be people. Won't happen.
    Aye, when I say "teach", that covers a huge spectrum. People need not to be poor, to be educated, to have stable upbringings etc. Still responsible for carrying out muggings though. But people need to keep their stuff secure from muggers too.


  • #63
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    You see, I don't know what your point is here. Any analogy will eventually be shown to be counter-productive to what it's trying to highlight.

    Are you saying that society thinks it is alright to mug people?

    I thought your other comments on the thread were very good (not that anyone's comments have to meet with my approval) but this remark is a bit glib.
    I really don't understand how you could interpret it as that. You said it's unfair to give out the message "We should teach men not to mug" and I agreed by saying "We should teach muggers not to mug" rather than aiming it at all men.


  • #64
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    I thought your other comments on the thread were very good
    Thanks btw!


  • #65
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    I really don't understand how you could interpret it as that. You said it's unfair to give out the message "We should teach men not to mug" and I agreed by saying "We should teach muggers not to mug" rather than aiming it at all men.

    On the aiming at all men part, I think I had this story in mind:
    http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/can_men_be_taught_not_to_rape/

    “If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”

    So that's why I was saying "all men" instead of "all muggers".

    I don't think the whole episode did anyone any favours so I shouldn't have used it without reading more about it, and having done so, I wouldn't have used it.

    A brain-fart on my account.


  • #66
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    On the aiming at all men part, I think I had this story in mind:
    http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/can_men_be_taught_not_to_rape/

    “If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”

    So that's why I was saying "all men" instead of "all muggers".

    I don't think the whole episode did anyone any favours so I shouldn't have used it without reading more about it, and having done so, I wouldn't have used it.

    A brain-fart on my account.

    I don't know what's more worrying; the over-simplification you highlighted above or the suggestion that guns are the answer in that article.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #67
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    diveout wrote: »
    Right but scumbags exist. It's not a pollyanna world, let's face it. I guess that is what it comes down to, are your expectations.... yeah you can expect a level of background decency, up to a point. You just don't really know.. and that's not to say assume the worst.
    I agree, however in that case I would ascribe 100% fault to the men involved. Her being drunk just presented them with opportunity, but they were rapey bastards to start with. If you or me were faced with a passed out woman about the extent of our involvement would be to keep an eye on her so she didn't choke on her own drool, because we're not rapey bastards. This very evening no doubt many women will pass out drunk on sofas all over Ireland and how many will be raped? A tiny proportion, if any, because the vast majority of men aren't rapey bastards.

    Actually you know why I hate victim blaming? It's not from the woman's side which is bad enough, it's from the men's. It carries the suggestion that all men are potential rapists if a enough of a victim presents herself.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #68
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I agree, however in that case I would ascribe 100% fault to the men involved. Her being drunk just presented them with opportunity, but they were rapey bastards to start with. If you or me were faced with a passed out woman about the extent of our involvement would be to keep an eye on her so she didn't choke on her own drool, because we're not rapey bastards. This very evening no doubt many women will pass out drunk on sofas all over Ireland and how many will be raped? A tiny proportion, if any, because the vast majority of men aren't rapey bastards.

    Actually you know why I hate victim blaming? It's not from the woman's side which is bad enough, it's from the men's. It carries the suggestion that all men are potential rapists if a enough of a victim presents herself.
    This is true. It's like the "He couldn't help himself" thing - undermining of men as it implies they have no self control.


  • #69
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I agree, however in that case I would ascribe 100% fault to the men involved. Her being drunk just presented them with opportunity, but they were rapey bastards to start with. If you or me were faced with a passed out woman about the extent of our involvement would be to keep an eye on her so she didn't choke on her own drool, because we're not rapey bastards. This very evening no doubt many women will pass out drunk on sofas all over Ireland and how many will be raped? A tiny proportion, if any, because the vast majority of men aren't rapey bastards.

    Actually you know why I hate victim blaming? It's not from the woman's side which is bad enough, it's from the men's. It carries the suggestion that all men are potential rapists if a enough of a victim presents herself.

    I've reached the conclusion that the best solution is to distance oneself from such a situation if it arises whenever possible. Harsh, but it would only take one accusation from someone who gets the wrong impression for everything to spiral out of control. I remember once going out for a take away alone in Manchester. It was about 9pm. On my way home I saw a little girl out on a tricycle. She fell off it and scraped her knee fairly badly. She started crying. I crossed the road and continued on my way. If I was with a lady, I might have asked her where her home was and escorted home. It's sad but that's the way it is.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #70
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I've reached the conclusion that the best solution is to distance oneself from such a situation if it arises whenever possible. Harsh, but it would only take one accusation from someone who gets the wrong impression for everything to spiral out of control. I remember once going out for a take away alone in Manchester. It was about 9pm. On my way home I saw a little girl out on a tricycle. She fell off it and scraped her knee fairly badly. She started crying. I crossed the road and continued on my way. If I was with a lady, I might have asked her where her home was and escorted home. It's sad but that's the way it is.

    Even trained child-carers are now told* that if the child cuts their knee, you have to pass them a bandage and get them to put it on themselves, not to apply it for them. No hugging to comfort the child. No bodily contact whatsoever, basically.

    *So I've been told by child-carers.


  • #71
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    On the aiming at all men part, I think I had this story in mind:
    http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/can_men_be_taught_not_to_rape/

    “If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.”

    So that's why I was saying "all men" instead of "all muggers".

    I don't think the whole episode did anyone any favours so I shouldn't have used it without reading more about it, and having done so, I wouldn't have used it.

    A brain-fart on my account.

    Ok I know this will sound very odd, but I think there at some level is a point. I have seen young men,adolescent men do really stupid things and I genuinely put it down to stupidity.

    I remember saying to a guy I was in school with "NO you can't pull out your penis and stick it on her head while she is studying for a math exam. I know you think its funny, and it kind of is, but no it's really not ok. You need to stop."

    Then there was this other guy who took it upon himself to finger the girls when they were asleep after the end of a party. Back then no one would have even considered this as sexual assault... just creepy behavior and you would be justified in clocking him over the head with something.

    And I recall myself, often getting groped upon development by boys in school. They thought it was hilarious. And I wasn't the only one subject to this. We all just dealt with it. No trauma, it was just considered part of the ritual of growing up and handling it.

    So yeah I can kind of see the education perspective from that level....


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  • #72
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    Even trained child-carers are now told* that if the child cuts their knee, you have to pass them a bandage and get them to put it on themselves, not to apply it for them. No hugging to comfort the child. No bodily contact whatsoever, basically.

    *So I've been told by child-carers.

    Yep. I believe you. Out of curiosity, any of these carers male? Don't answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so.
    I'm getting a theme that everyone's a suspect in a lot of areas. I went to Russia recently and we had to go through metal detectors to enter a McDonald's.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #73
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Yep. I believe you. Out of curiosity, any of these carers male? Don't answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so.
    I'm getting a theme that everyone's a suspect in a lot of areas. I went to Russia recently and we had to go through metal detectors to enter a McDonald's.

    Oh it's definitely an age of paranoia. Discernment has gone.


  • #74
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
    Ben Franklin

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #75
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Yep. I believe you. Out of curiosity, any of these carers male? Don't answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so.
    I'm getting a theme that everyone's a suspect in a lot of areas. I went to Russia recently and we had to go through metal detectors to enter a McDonald's.

    Told this by both male and female people in scouting/guiding organizations and when I was talking about it to others in teaching profession, they said that those are indeed the official guidelines.

    The feeling I got was it was more to do with insurance issues and safety for the teacher (as in false accusations or misunderstandings can lead to one's reputation, career and life being ruined) than being suspicious of everyone. More erring on the side of caution.


  • #76
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    Told this by both male and female people in scouting/guiding organizations and when I was talking about it to others in teaching profession, they said that those are indeed the official guidelines.

    The feeling I got was it was more to do with insurance issues and safety for the teacher (as in false accusations or misunderstandings can lead to one's reputation, career and life being ruined) than being suspicious of everyone. More erring on the side of caution.

    It only takes one match to light a fire. There's a good film called the Hunt regarding a man's reputation being destroyed by a misunderstanding with a small child.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #77
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It only takes one match to light a fire.


    Not necessarily :P

    Fire-Triangle-small1.jpg


  • #78
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    Not necessarily :P

    Fire-Triangle-small1.jpg

    Fine, a spark combined with the air of misandric disdain and the fuel of circumstance .

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wibbs wrote: »
    What I find interesting is when actual examples of a culture of rape come up the silence can be deafening, or feminist voices remain at a remarkably low volume. EG the recent appalling sexual exploitation, rape and violence that involved over a thousand young women in Rotherham. Haven't seen or heard much about it at all from the usual feminist outlets. Search for rape culture on Jezebel and the results page gets very long, with many links on the subject, yet type in Rotherham and nada. Goes for many similar sites in the UK where it happened. Maybe it's the idea that non white rape culture exists in a multicultural society gets them twitchy.
    Aye it's funny that isn't it? 1% of a college campus being gob****es and the media covering a story relentlessly is an example of rape culture but a larger proportion of the population involving complicity or corruption or negligence by the authorities somehow doesn't.
    I didn't really notice it until the 90's and it really took off with the wider uptake of the interwebs. And the problem with the interwebs is it can a) give radicals a wider audience than they otherwise wouldn't reach and b) can make that audience look larger than it actually is and get more joining in thinking it's a bigger movement/philosophy. You can see this on the Men's rights side too. The medium tends to favour the extreme.
    As you've pointed out elsewhere, the PUA sites are tiny yet are used as "OMG look how men are oppressing us." There's a lot more "radical feminists" than radical "MRAs" or whatever yet guess which is fine to us to criticise the whole lot?
    Wibbs wrote: »
    +1000. If you pass out drunk and for "fun" I decide to repeatedly kick you in the nuts, I am the dickhead 100% no arguments dickhead. You being drunk has pretty much nothing to do with it. Daft to get that drunk? Sure, but you should expect a level of background decency and restraint from those around you to not injure you. Would a non scumbag kick a drunken man in the street? Nope. Someone who finger rapes a passed out woman and videos it FFS, is pure scum and nothing less.
    I got teabagged once when I passed out at a party. I wonder how I would've got on if I'd gone to the Gardai.


  • #80
    Mike747
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 383 ✭✭Mike747


    Wibbs wrote: »
    What I find interesting is when actual examples of a culture of rape come up the silence can be deafening, or feminist voices remain at a remarkably low volume. EG the recent appalling sexual exploitation, rape and violence that involved over a thousand young women in Rotherham. Haven't seen or heard much about it at all from the usual feminist outlets. Search for rape culture on Jezebel and the results page gets very long, with many links on the subject, yet type in Rotherham and nada. Goes for many similar sites in the UK where it happened. Maybe it's the idea that non white rape culture exists in a multicultural society gets them twitchy.

    The fact that the perpetrators were largely Pakistani and the victims largely white doesn't really fit in with the cultural Marxist/third wave feminist narrative of evil white oppression and privilege.

    Another example was the Sudanese woman who was facing death for converting to Christianity. I noticed the hardcore feminazis were silent on this one. I guess they couldn't blame it on whitey, and it made Sudanese people and Muslims look bad.


  • #81
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I got teabagged once when I passed out at a party. I wonder how I would've got on if I'd gone to the Gardai.
    I don't know, but that rotten skank sexually assaulted you.


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  • #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mike747 wrote: »
    The fact that the perpetrators were largely Pakistani and the victims largely white doesn't really fit in with the cultural Marxist/third wave feminist narrative of evil white oppression and privilege.

    Another example was the Sudanese woman who was facing death for converting to Christianity. I noticed the hardcore feminazis were silent on this one. I guess they couldn't blame it on whitey, and it made Sudanese people and Muslims look bad.
    While I think the focusing on race in this case is a red herring it is funny how they've aligned themselves with other "causes" and how they've backed themselves into one of two corners when stuff like this comes up. Either they ignore it or they engage in the most ridiculous and distasteful cultural relativism possible.
    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    I don't know, but that rotten skank sexually assaulted you.
    It's grand, I got him back several times over. Using the definition of the 1 in 4 stat I don't know many people, male or female, who haven't been "raped".


  • #83
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    Apologies, but what is the 1 in 4 stat a reference to?


  • #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    Apologies, but what is the 1 in 4 stat a reference too?

    1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted/raped/harassed. The figure can be based on any number of things and also applies to everywhere in Europe and North America whether the stats exist to back it up or not.


  • #85
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It originally only referred to US colleges, on the back of a "study" in the late 1980's, that has been held up as feminist gospel within those ivory towers, but has gained wider acceptance as a given in the wider world, even though it has been discredited.

    In a very simple nutshell the "researcher" decided for the respondents what she considered sexual assault/rape, even though two thirds of the respondents didn't consider it rape themselves and half of them were still sleeping with the guy. Funny enough she wasn't so inventive with her interpretation of male sexual assault and with a straight face wrote "It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman". IMH that's pretty much all you need to read to see her angle.

    Sometimes you'll read "1 in 5" and I've even seen "1 in 3" from some quarters. Problem being that since a couple of high profile and bloody awful rape cases on US campuses, the colleges have to by law keep their own stats and these don't come within an asses roar of the 1 in 4 of the original incredibly flawed study. Government and other studies show figures more like 2-5 per 1000. Bit of a gulf there even if you allow for unreported incidences. It has become a sacred cow and woe betide anyone asking too many questions about it. Cue at worst "you rape culture enabler", or at best vague appeals to the emotional of "one rape is too many" which is true but means nothing statistically. Add that the word "rape" is akin to screaming "shark" on a crowded beach as far as impact goes and the silencing of critics is pretty easy.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Never mind the way apparent rape cases are treated by colleges in the US, people getting kicked out despite no charges being filed etc.


  • #87
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Including IIRC one case where the accused was cleared by his accuser. Through the looking glass folks. I wouldn't give a toss if this was some hippie commune up a mountain somewhere, but this kinda daftness is taking place in universities, the peak of the education system that drives wider discourse and culture.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #88
    Mike747
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 383 ✭✭Mike747


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Including IIRC one case where the accused was cleared by his accuser. Through the looking glass folks. I wouldn't give a toss if this was some hippie commune up a mountain somewhere, but this kinda daftness is taking place in universities, the peak of the education system that drives wider discourse and culture.

    Which is why I don't buy the 'it's just a few extremists making all the noise' line. There are thousands of young women indoctrinated with third wave feminism out there, many will go on to positions of power and influence.


  • #89
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Including IIRC one case where the accused was cleared by his accuser. Through the looking glass folks. I wouldn't give a toss if this was some hippie commune up a mountain somewhere, but this kinda daftness is taking place in universities, the peak of the education system that drives wider discourse and culture.
    Yup. Except discourse isn't encouraged in Unis any more. It's all about who can be the most "liberal" while shutting down dissent.
    We're a couple of rape-enablers talking like this though.


  • #90
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Never mind the way apparent rape cases are treated by colleges in the US, people getting kicked out despite no charges being filed etc.

    Hasnt there been some recent change in the law where you can basically go on trial at Uni and you are guilty until proven innocent. Frightening stuff


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  • #91
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Including IIRC one case where the accused was cleared by his accuser. Through the looking glass folks. I wouldn't give a toss if this was some hippie commune up a mountain somewhere, but this kinda daftness is taking place in universities, the peak of the education system that drives wider discourse and culture.

    I blame corporate culture. We can't have something like debate possibly offending hardline feminists when there's insane amounts of money to be made. Additionally, some campuses are just inherently militant. For example, I work at the University of Sussex, the UK's last left wing University. There was a string of emails going around with stopping the Gaza killings as the agenda. I suggested, foolishly that the staff email might not be the best place to discuss such as issue and perhaps that a debate could be organised. Cue accusations of treating the issue as unimportant, because, typing f*ck Israel into a University's email system repeatedly will help. Thank Christ I was smart enough not to suggest that there might be more to the story than the BBC and the Guardian are letting on.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #92
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    Wibbs wrote: »
    It originally only referred to US colleges, on the back of a "study" in the late 1980's, that has been held up as feminist gospel within those ivory towers, but has gained wider acceptance as a given in the wider world, even though it has been discredited.

    In a very simple nutshell the "researcher" decided for the respondents what she considered sexual assault/rape, even though two thirds of the respondents didn't consider it rape themselves and half of them were still sleeping with the guy. Funny enough she wasn't so inventive with her interpretation of male sexual assault and with a straight face wrote "It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman". IMH that's pretty much all you need to read to see her angle.

    Sometimes you'll read "1 in 5" and I've even seen "1 in 3" from some quarters. Problem being that since a couple of high profile and bloody awful rape cases on US campuses, the colleges have to by law keep their own stats and these don't come within an asses roar of the 1 in 4 of the original incredibly flawed study. Government and other studies show figures more like 2-5 per 1000. Bit of a gulf there even if you allow for unreported incidences. It has become a sacred cow and woe betide anyone asking too many questions about it. Cue at worst "you rape culture enabler", or at best vague appeals to the emotional of "one rape is too many" which is true but means nothing statistically. Add that the word "rape" is akin to screaming "shark" on a crowded beach as far as impact goes and the silencing of critics is pretty easy.

    If they carry on with this, it would not surprise me if men stopped going to college altogether. Thank god for on-line degrees.

    It's such intellectual abuse it makes me sick.


  • #93
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    I have to clarify an earlier point where I cited a Fox News article when quoting a "men should be taught not to rape".

    I thought it was odd that I'd be reading that drivel in the first place (by which I mean anything Fox News related).
    The article I was actually thinking of was this:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337

    "How about men, don’t rape? Men, don’t murder your exes or partners. Men, don’t beat up your wives or girlfriends. Men, don’t assault someone you’ve just met that night. Men, don’t shout at women across the road just because you can. Men, stop hanging your threat of rape over dark streets. "


  • #94
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    I have to clarify an earlier point where I cited a Fox News article when quoting a "men should be taught not to rape".

    I thought it was odd that I'd be reading that drivel in the first place (by which I mean anything Fox News related).
    The article I was actually thinking of was this:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337

    "How about men, don’t rape? Men, don’t murder your exes or partners. Men, don’t beat up your wives or girlfriends. Men, don’t assault someone you’ve just met that night. Men, don’t shout at women across the road just because you can. Men, stop hanging your threat of rape over dark streets. "


    Paywall on that article, but let me guess...Una Mullally?


  • #95
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    constance tench wrote: »
    Paywall on that article, but let me guess...Una Mullally?

    Yeah.

    Paywall though? I got onto it no problem and I'd rather hammer nails into my tongue than pay the Irish Times to have a read of their ****e.


  • #96
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    Yeah.

    Paywall though? I got onto it no problem and I'd rather hammer nails into my tongue than pay the Irish Times to have a read of their ****e.

    Una spotting..I'm convinced she has more than one account here:)

    The Irish Times, hold a special place for me in their heart.


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  • #97
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    raindog.promo wrote: »
    "How about men, don’t rape? Men, don’t murder your exes or partners. Men, don’t beat up your wives or girlfriends. Men, don’t assault someone you’ve just met that night. Men, don’t shout at women across the road just because you can. Men, stop hanging your threat of rape over dark streets. "
    That kind of student rag ivory tower drivel says it all for me where it concerns one section of feminism. A large enough section too. Any time I see it I am only to happy to show it up for the feverish hysterical nonsense it is.

    The joke is while women fear rapists with good reason, the vast majority of men hate them with a passion. They're segregated from the prison population for good reason. Even the most aggressive dangerous murdering lowlife will kill a rapist or child molester if he get's the chance(and I'd not convict him for it either TBH).

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #98
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,509 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    That terrible article resulted in this thread on here.

    Whilst such pieces often lead to online discussion, or an occasional letter to the Irish Times, a key difficulty with the likes of Mullally is that she effectively gets a free pass.

    Don't get me wrong, I would never give her stick via her Twitter on a personal level (she gets some, I'd imagine), and I wouldn't support anyone who wants to criticise for being a women, nor am I interested in attacks on character. However, the narratives and other crap these more distorted logic feminists (who are the minority) promote are simply not an acceptable standard of debate, imo. I don't really care what side of the political fence you're on. Anyone promoting this sort of sweeping 'gender X must ______' crap as noted in the OP of the thread I've linked to, must be challenged in the mainstream media - broadcast and print, but also and particularly, by peers with feminism (or whatever movement). Counter blogs that generate a few retweets are not enough, I don't think.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #99
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I posted this in the Sexism thread and I think it's relevant here too. The BBC reported that a few American chaps had developed nail polish/varnish that changed colour upon contact with some date rape drugs, presumably the likes of GBH, rohypnol, etc. Cue accusations of victim-blaming.
    It's been pointed out to me that there've been no proven cases of date rape drug use in Ireland but it seems like a fairly minor precaution for someone in the US or somewhere where the practice is more frequent.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-28958365

    In a similar vein:
    UK may get women-only train carriages

    Claire Perry, speaking at the Conservative party conference in Birmingham yesterday, said she is “absolutely determined” to cut the number sexual offences on public transport, and that women-only carriages could be a way to prevent “groping and low-level violence”.

    [..]

    In reaction to Perry’s speech, some have noted that segregated transport could put the onus on women, rather than society as a whole, to prevent sexual crime:

    [Tweet: "Or Claire Perry, you could just teach men it's not ok to sexually assault other passengers. But what do I know"]


  • #100
    Seriously?
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Seriously?


    It will be interesting to see how this plays out:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29406138

    As a male student in the states you certainly need your wits about you when dealing with your female colleagues. Though I guess that’s increasingly the case also in your professional life as well.


  • #101
    Mike747
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 383 ✭✭Mike747


    Seriously? wrote: »
    It will be interesting to see how this plays out:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29406138

    As a male student in the states you certainly need your wits about you when dealing with your female colleagues. Though I guess that’s increasingly the case also in your professional life as well.

    Ridiculous law. Hopefully it will be taken to the supreme court and struck down. This idea that you can't consent if drunk is bs.


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