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Mihaly igloi training philosophy
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18-03-2015 9:23pm#1Just wondering if anyone knows much about his methods? He is a big proponent of all year round intervals even through the base phase which is a controversial topic at best because of the misunderstanding of lydiard type training as just long slow distance. Alot off his training is focused on neuromuscular development and long workouts of high reps and long recovery which are cut down as raceday approaches.
I found a Steve Magness blog post on his methods but there doesn't seem to be much else out there. Could someone fix the link please:
htt p://ww w.scienceofrunning.com/2010/02/interval-training-why-its-misunderstood.htm l?m=1
There's a few attached links at the bottom which make interesting reading too. said I'd post it up for anyone who is interested in some reading. If anyone has any opinions or knowledge of the system, I'd be interested in hearing them.2
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Haven't heard of the trainer or the system netwerk, but would be interesting in reading up on it. Sounds like a similar approach to my club coach. He takes a break from training us for the month of August when he tells us to do easy runs for a month with one mile hard once a week. Other than that month it's mile intervals at approx 5k pace (3 to 6 no off 3 min rest), 2 mile intervals at 10k pace (2-3 no off 3 min rest) or 2 x mile at 10k with 8-12x300m at mile pace off 100m jog. These are alternated on Tuesdays and Thursdays year round! Plus wait for it- On a Sunday- 7k @ between marathon pace and steady pace, 7k@ half marathon pace, 7k @ 10k to threshold pace with 2 min rest between for a sip of water. You are constantly on the verge of breakdown (physical and mental!), injury and over training. If this guy's training is along the lines of what we are told to do I would approach with caution. I think all year intervals can work but you need to be able to pull back if you think your overreaching at any stage or else you will end up burned out. I think my club coach is old school - jerry kiernan old school! It can be tough going. He gets results with everyone though. Will give it a read. Thanks.NetwerkErrer wrote: »Just wondering if anyone knows much about his methods? He is a big proponent of all year round intervals even through the base phase which is a controversial topic at best because of the misunderstanding of lydiard type training as just long slow distance. Alot off his training is focused on neuromuscular development and long workouts of high reps and long recovery which are cut down as raceday approaches.
I found a Steve Magness blog post on his methods but there doesn't seem to be much else out there. Could someone fix the link please:
htt p://ww w.scienceofrunning.com/2010/02/interval-training-why-its-misunderstood.htm l?m=1
There's a few attached links at the bottom which make interesting reading too. said I'd post it up for anyone who is interested in some reading. If anyone has any opinions or knowledge of the system, I'd be interested in hearing them.0 -
40 x 100m @ mile pace ftw!0
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conavitzky wrote: »Haven't heard of the trainer or the system netwerk, but would be interesting in reading up on it. Sounds like a similar approach to my club coach. He takes a break from training us for the month of August when he tells us to do easy runs for a month with one mile hard once a week. Other than that month it's mile intervals at approx 5k pace (3 to 6 no off 3 min rest), 2 mile intervals at 10k pace (2-3 no off 3 min rest) or 2 x mile at 10k with 8-12x300m at mile pace off 100m jog. These are alternated on Tuesdays and Thursdays year round! Plus wait for it- On a Sunday- 7k @ between marathon pace and steady pace, 7k@ half marathon pace, 7k @ 10k to threshold pace with 2 min rest between for a sip of water. You are constantly on the verge of breakdown (physical and mental!), injury and over training. If this guy's training is along the lines of what we are told to do I would approach with caution. I think all year intervals can work but you need to be able to pull back if you think your overreaching at any stage or else you will end up burned out. I think my club coach is old school - jerry kiernan old school! It can be tough going. He gets results with everyone though. Will give it a read. Thanks.
Thats the complete opposite of the Igoli system. Your coach is flogging you year round with intervals usually performed during a specific phase. Confirms my assertion about the standards of distance running coaches in this country.
The Igoli system is very useful for a 400m/800m runner as long as they do the intervals on grass during the winter. They get good aerobic work in using biomachanics similiar to their event. Nothing worse than seeing a 47 second 400/800m runner out doing 12 mile long runs or 6 mile tempos for an aerobic stimulus .0 -
There was a really interesting feature in Running Times about him a few months back.
I'll post the link if I can find it0 -
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Ghost in Cratloe wrote: »Thats the complete opposite of the Igoli system. Your coach is flogging you year round with intervals usually performed during a specific phase. Confirms my assertion about the standards of distance running coaches in this country.
The Igoli system is very useful for a 400m/800m runner as long as they do the intervals on grass during the winter. They get good aerobic work in using biomachanics similiar to their event. Nothing worse than seeing a 47 second 400/800m runner out doing 12 mile long runs or 6 mile tempos for an aerobic stimulus .
Ghost I said I hadn't read it. I was basing my reply on the original post where it was mentioned about doing intervals all year around. ... Having read it now I agree with you. It's nothing like the training our coach is subscribing. And by the way I totally agree with you re being flogged year round. The man is at it for 40 years. I would rather take my own few weeks off easy or mix around a few sessions than confront him. He generally does build and peak a few times a year but the intensity ratio is more 50/50 than 80/20. Anyway going off topic here.0 -
These are mainly aerobic intervals. The rep size and rest means that you can run at fast paces while having the same effect as a threshold/steady effort.
Super for fast twitch guys to target fatiguing FT fibres aerobically.
For all runners. You can get a variety of paces in without the anaerobic over head.
The Australian marathon methods used Aussie quarters/moneghetti fartlek to great affect as year round aerobic speedwork for marathon goals.
If a ST runner had developed her LT through continuous steady runs she could start using an interval threshold session with a lot of 10k intervals, then changing it to 5k, even down to 3k adjusting the recovery (lenght and/or pace) to make it a stimulus to her threshold.
She could alternate this run with her continuous threshold run. The two runs would compliment each other. The intervals would give her a little more speed for the single effort. The single effort would give her more strenght to help with the later reps of the interval session.
She could then concentrate her event pace (say 5k). Slightly longer reps with slightly longer rests which would put the emphasis on specific muscular endurance. Her goal is to have legs strong enough to complete the event at specific pace in a very (apparently) relaxed style.
When she is there it might be time to start her specific stuff, reducing the rests increasing rep size etc.
The 40 x 100 @ mile pace could be used as a base for the specific muscular endurance work above.
The intervals could also be used to support a development race.
E.g running a big interval threshold session at the specific pace as prep.
Also great for injecting some faster work into a late base phase to start that transition and to avoid injury. Faster work during a base phase really keeps the whole thing together.
So Igloi's methods seem to be able to enhance speed, muscular endurance, threshold through aerobic intervals.
You dont ahve to go the whole hog with these intervals ala Igloi and zatopek.
But a tailored suitable session every second week year round might help a lot0 -
Great topic NE!
A couple of quick observations.
It's interesting to note Zatopek and Igloi being mentioned in the same breath. I remember reading about Zatopek's training and thinking that a lot of the 'interval' training was really aerobic fartlek.
I remember reading Peter Snell - a physiologist who was 800m (twice) and 1500m Olympic champion - saying with the benefit of hindsight, his experiences and his years of academic study that the only thing that he would add to Lydiard's training schedules is some more regular interval work. He didn't go into any detail unfortunately nor can I find the link but shortish aerobic intervals might fit the bill quite well.0 -
These are mainly aerobic intervals. The rep size and rest means that you can run at fast paces while having the same effect as a threshold/steady effort.
Super for fast twitch guys to target fatiguing FT fibres aerobically.
For all runners. You can get a variety of paces in without the anaerobic over head.
The Australian marathon methods used Aussie quarters/moneghetti fartlek to great affect as year round aerobic speedwork for marathon goals.
If a ST runner had developed her LT through continuous steady runs she could start using an interval threshold session with a lot of 10k intervals, then changing it to 5k, even down to 3k adjusting the recovery (lenght and/or pace) to make it a stimulus to her threshold.
She could alternate this run with her continuous threshold run. The two runs would compliment each other. The intervals would give her a little more speed for the single effort. The single effort would give her more strenght to help with the later reps of the interval session.
She could then concentrate her event pace (say 5k). Slightly longer reps with slightly longer rests which would put the emphasis on specific muscular endurance. Her goal is to have legs strong enough to complete the event at specific pace in a very (apparently) relaxed style.
When she is there it might be time to start her specific stuff, reducing the rests increasing rep size etc.
The 40 x 100 @ mile pace could be used as a base for the specific muscular endurance work above.
The intervals could also be used to support a development race.
E.g running a big interval threshold session at the specific pace as prep.
Also great for injecting some faster work into a late base phase to start that transition and to avoid injury. Faster work during a base phase really keeps the whole thing together.
So Igloi's methods seem to be able to enhance speed, muscular endurance, threshold through aerobic intervals.
You dont ahve to go the whole hog with these intervals ala Igloi and zatopek.
But a tailored suitable session every second week year round might help a lot
Good stuff Demfad. Just wondering about the highlighted part. Wouldn't these kind of interval sessions be just as valuable to an ST runner as an FT runner as you would be building far more fast twitch fibres while running aerobically and how specific the focus is on form? The ST type of runner would get a lot more race pace and above running done while still getting the aerobic benefits of a longer continuous run.
I agree though, It's not something to throw yourself into fully but there's definitely a reason to take points from his methodology, not many people have time to spend hours on the track running one workout. I recall Jack Daniels doing a similar experiment on his runners where they only ran 400m with 4 minute recovery between reps constantly for 2 weeks racking up something like 150mpw in 400m repeats alone. I'll try find some info on that and post it if I can.
Coe and igloi's methods probably aren't the best, the dip in 90's performances from a high intensity interval based training show that but I think it's an interesting topic to take ideas from.0 -
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NetwerkErrer wrote: »Good stuff Demfad. Just wondering about the highlighted part. Wouldn't these kind of interval sessions be just as valuable to an ST runner as an FT runner as you would be building far more fast twitch fibres while running aerobically and how specific the focus is on form? The ST type of runner would get a lot more race pace and above running done while still getting the aerobic benefits of a longer continuous run.
I agree though, It's not something to throw yourself into fully but there's definitely a reason to take points from his methodology, not many people have time to spend hours on the track running one workout. I recall Jack Daniels doing a similar experiment on his runners where they only ran 400m with 4 minute recovery between reps constantly for 2 weeks racking up something like 150mpw in 400m repeats alone. I'll try find some info on that and post it if I can.
Coe and igloi's methods probably aren't the best, the dip in 90's performances from a high intensity interval based training show that but I think it's an interesting topic to take ideas from.
Hi NE.
Yes id agree that they would be just as valuable to ST runners but in slightly different ways.
FT first:
The FT runner has less ST fibres so running @ sustained tempo paces would tire all these fibres quickly delving into his "medium" FT fibres early and thus producing way too much lactic to be a threshold run.
Thus he could use the interval style to tire his ST fibres (and some of his FT fibres). The jog rest would ensure it remained in the threshold range.
This also holds true to an extent for specific endurance sessions. If the runner is relatively FT for an event, the reps (@ race pace) will be shorter (relative to a relatively ST runner) at the start of the specific period.
So when you see the likes of 4 x 5k @ MP with 1k @ 90% MP. It looks like an elite marathon session. But actually this (or something similar) would be of far more benefit of you're on the FT side of marathon pace for many non-elite runners.
ST runners:
For threshold: they can run sustained for long periods at this pace. Therefore, they should IMO maximise thier threshold @ sustained paces. Focusing on Sub threshold paces first (with some but limited training @ LT), then focusing more on LT. Then on long LT reps, then possibly on shorter LT reps depending on where they want to take it.
For form:
Strides 15-40 secs @ mile-3k pace.
You can run 35-40 secs at this pace aerobically. Something like 3 x (6 x 35s) is something I do during base training. This type of session helps all the other running and is nearly essential if youre on big base mileage to keep the pace up and the form good and stave off injury.
FT and ST people can do those (aerobic intervals).
Also think about form endurance. That is keeping form late in races (takes muscular endurance).
That's where the 20-40 x 100m might come in. You run them fast and relaxed.
Then you can run longer intervals @ 10k-HM pace with big rests. Do them all relaxed and do loads of them. Most of the pressure comes on the legs not the Aerobic system. Shouldnt be a "hard" session but should cause dull tiredness in the leg muscles.That will help with staying realxed at the end of the tougher threshold runs and with the runs @ race pace too.
Im sure there are many more possibilities. Id know more about the 10k up stuff though to be honest.0
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