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The inadequate state of pedestrian footpaths in Dublin

  • 28-11-2014 8:24pm
    #1
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭


    Is it just my imagination or is footpath space in the city centre becoming dangerously congested in quite a number of places? I'm thinking the section of Baggot Street Lower between Tesco and Stephens Green; Suffolk Street; the junctions of George's Street and Dame Street as well as the western pedestrian crossing of O'Connell Bridge on the northside towards O'Connell Street. Do DCC have any plans to address this?

    In the case of Baggot Street it seems to me that there are actually more people using the footpath than people using the road because it's mostly car traffic with not many busses running down that route. Also, the road could be comfortably reduced to two lanes instead of the two and a half lanes that it is now. In fact, in all the cases except for maybe O'Connell Bridge and Suffolk Street I would say that traffic lanes could be narrowed to facilitate wider footpaths without actually reducing the number of lanes in place. Am I missing something?


Comments

  • #2
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Some of these spots are certainly very congested.

    The problem is that a lot of the congestion centres on the corners at the junctions rather than on the main run of the pavement. You can widen the pavement a bit here and there but if you can't widen the bit where people actually congregate, it may not help much.

    If you narrow the roads too much, you may make the road more likely to get blocked because of short disruptions to traffic, like cars stopping or deliveries to the shops along the streets. You are inevitably going to have taxis stopping outside restaurants on Merrion Row for example.

    There is a long history to this issue. The Wide Streets Commissioners recognised the problem you are referring to at Merrion Row (bottom of Baggot St) and wanted to widen Merrion Row. That was 200 years ago. But they weren't able to advance the project.


  • #3
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    AngryLips wrote: »
    ...Baggot Street Lower between Tesco and Stephens Green; Suffolk Street; ...... western pedestrian crossing of O'Connell Bridge on the northside towards O'Connell Street. Do DCC have any plans to address this?

    The NTA plans to widden those in plans for BRT/Luas and their draft wider city centre plan.

    The NTA wants Suffolk Street pedestrianised. Dublin City Council does not.

    The west footpath on O'Connell Bridge could and should be widened within a week. There's zero excuses for not doing so.


  • #4
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    monument wrote: »
    The NTA wants Suffolk Street pedestrianised. Dublin City Council does not

    Any ideas why not?
    monument wrote: »
    The west footpath on O'Connell Bridge could and should be widened within a week. There's zero excuses for not doing so.

    Would a widened western footpath on O'Connell Bridge align with the corresponding footpath on the west side of O'Connell Street?

    Baggot Street Lower is the biggest problem, it's only a one way street on that section, you need max two lanes even accounting for space needed for loading/unloading


  • #5
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    I thought this thread was going to be about the open gutters letting downspouts pour streams of water across the footpaths


  • #6
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,084 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    How are the other footpaths? You know, the non-pedestrian ones?


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  • #7
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,899 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Any ideas why not?


    I'd imagine it would require all cross city buses to go on a longer route.

    all buses coming down green/dawson street would have to Nassau street and Pearse street and back onto Westmoreland street

    it would cause a lot of congestion


  • #8
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,688 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    AngryLips wrote: »


    Would a widened western footpath on O'Connell Bridge align with the corresponding footpath on the west side of O'Connell Street?

    Good question. There is ample room to widen the footpath on the western side of O'Connell Bridge but if the corresponding footpaths on O'Connell St and Westmoreland St aren't lined up with the widened O'Connell Bridge footpath then it would create a kind of funnelling effect when people cross over to those footpaths and they aren't as wide as the one on the bridge. I agree something must be done though.

    On another note the pedestrian crossing from Westmoreland St to O'Connell Bridge is just an accident waiting to happen on a pedestrian as the pedestrian lights are widely broken. I was turning left there in a car last week and the whole crossing was blocked with pedestrians breaking a red light, it'll only tale a driver coming flying around the corner and someones gonna get hit.


  • #9
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I'd imagine it would require all cross city buses to go on a longer route.

    all buses coming down green/dawson street would have to Nassau street and Pearse street and back onto Westmoreland street

    it would cause a lot of congestion

    The road that wraps around the front of trinity will become a two way street once Luas is extended onto it, so busses would only need to be rerouted via the BXD Luas tracks and not down Pearse Street


  • #10
    dRNk SAnTA
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 777 ✭✭✭dRNk SAnTA


    OP You're right - the west side of O'Connell bridge is just ridiculous to be honest. It's so blindingly obvious that it needs to be widened and the space is right there, marked available, and has been for years.

    We should make a blog or instagram page highlighting these examples and try to embarrass DCC into action.

    They've got their new public realm guidelines to follow - I don't see why interested public folk like ourselves shouldn't actively monitor its implementation?


  • #11
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I think there are multiple locations where the road space is unnecessarily wide and where footpaths can and should be widened without causing problems for traffic. There was a thread recently about locations where the road space is poorly defined and results in stupid driver behavior, such as the bottom of Winetavern Street where a fourth lane of traffic develops on a three lane road. Roads should be reduced to an appropriate width for the number of lanes and footpaths widened accordingly. It would also help eliminate the stopping of cars (particularly taxis) on the side of the street where they are not permitted to, leaving other traffic to squeeze by. Having a standard road width and better defined streets in the city centre would help the flow of traffic and more space could be designated for cyclists and/or pedestrians.
    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Good question. There is ample room to widen the footpath on the western side of O'Connell Bridge but if the corresponding footpaths on O'Connell St and Westmoreland St aren't lined up with the widened O'Connell Bridge footpath then it would create a kind of funnelling effect when people cross over to those footpaths and they aren't as wide as the one on the bridge.

    Surely the footpath on the bridge is not as wide as on O'Connell Street and could be widened without any problems?


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  • #12
    Sheldons Brain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭Sheldons Brain


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    How are the other footpaths? You know, the non-pedestrian ones?

    No footpath is free from cycloterrorists.


  • #13
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,688 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »



    Surely the footpath on the bridge is not as wide as on O'Connell Street and could be widened without any problems?

    Just had a look at it there and you're right- the footpath on O'Connell Street is wider than the one on the bridge and if the bridge one was widened by approx 3m or so both footpaths would line up perfectly. The problem might be on the other side where there is already a bottleneck on the O'Connell Bridge side for people waiting to cross over to Westmoreland St. If the bridge footpath was widened it appears to me that it wouldn't line up with the footpath on Westmoreland St and may create a kind of funnelling effect, I don't know I've zero knowledge of the movements of large crowds. Regardless I suppose its nothing that cant be solved with good road markings.


  • #14
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Sheldons Brain wrote: »
    No footpath is free from cycloterrorists.

    IF you want to go further discussing cycling on footpaths, visit this thread: Cyclists mega-thread (WARNING: Before posting you must read post #1)

    And do not use the term cycloterrorists on any thread on this board -- that's not a request, thanks.

    -- Moderator


  • #15
    mrbike
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭mrbike


    Pedestrians in Dublin get a pretty raw deal. It's by far the most popular way of getting around the city, but all the roads are geared up to keep traffic moving no matter what.

    I made a short video during the summer that shows just how many pedestrians there are. You can see how they get stuck on the small refuge islands surrounded by multi-lane roads. There's a huge bunch that get stuck on the very narrow island on O'Connell bridge (to the middle right on the video).



  • #16
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    I was walking along Stephens Green North today and thought that, with the changes to traffic flow because of BXD, there is an opportunity to pedestrianise a large chunk of the road space in front of the Christmas market along the section of SG North between Kildare St and Dawson St without any disruption to traffic. It would create an amazing public space. Only two lanes would be needed for bus traffic.


  • #17
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    There is a long history to this issue. The Wide Streets Commissioners recognised the problem you are referring to at Merrion Row (bottom of Baggot St) and wanted to widen Merrion Row. That was 200 years ago. But they weren't able to advance the project.


    Any source for that? Not that I'm doubting you, just that it might be interesting.


    mrbike wrote: »
    Pedestrians in Dublin get a pretty raw deal. It's by far the most popular way of getting around the city, but all the roads are geared up to keep traffic moving no matter what.

    I made a short video during the summer that shows just how many pedestrians there are. You can see how they get stuck on the small refuge islands surrounded by multi-lane roads. There's a huge bunch that get stuck on the very narrow island on O'Connell bridge (to the middle right on the video).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1HxAPvdinE&feature=youtu.be&list=UU14IHkYSXshisBjZlBhRf6w


    Typical of the way pedestrians are corralled like sheep in this country, to facilitate the flow of motorised traffic.

    Ironically, it was of course the Wide Streets Commission that gave us O'Connell Street, a century before the internal combustion engine was invented, and when horses and cattle would have been a major part of the traffic.

    Mind you, I imagine that the WSC wasn't very sensitive to the needs of the locals, when they reshaped the Northside to create more majestic thoroughfares.


  • #18
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    dRNk SAnTA wrote: »
    OP You're right - the west side of O'Connell bridge is just ridiculous to be honest. It's so blindingly obvious that it needs to be widened and the space is right there, marked available, and has been for years.

    We should make a blog or instagram page highlighting these examples and try to embarrass DCC into action.

    They've got their new public realm guidelines to follow - I don't see why interested public folk like ourselves shouldn't actively monitor its implementation?



    DCC are aware of it - it's going to be used as a temporary bus stop during the LUAS works so it won't be happening anytime soon.


  • #19
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    lxflyer wrote: »
    DCC are aware of it - it's going to be used as a temporary bus stop during the LUAS works so it won't be happening anytime soon.

    This. It needs to stop.

    DCC can't put in the quays cycle route because of BXD, it can't put in contra-flow cycle lanes because Metro North and Dart Underground, it can't widden footpaths because of BXD, Dart, and Metro, and so on...

    It's like waiting for Godot!


  • #20
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well unfortunately that's what the plan is.

    I'm no happier than you about it.

    The stop on the east side of the bridge is a disgrace - it should never have been moved from O'Connell Street.

    A bridge is no place for people to be expected to wait for a bus given our propensity for rain.


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