SSssooooo annoyed!

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 11:54am

Magenta wrote: »

First of all, you should have had your dog on a lead.
That woman is walking her small dog and she has 5 unleashed dogs running around. Of course she was intimidated.

Second, your dog's injuries are not that bad. He looks a little like Shane Lynch circa 1997, which I doubt would help in your little pedigree show.

Third, you've admitted "bloody well kicking" the other woman's dog.
Now, we know the dog is only a "runt" and a "MONGREL", but if it turns out that dog has internal injuries from the kicking you gave it, are you going to foot the vet's bill?

Can I ask what would you have done?
Your dog is being mauled... the owner is not reacting to remove her dog.

Would you stand there and allow your dog to lose an eye would you?

You would not! I tried pulling Ben back along with other people (none of which were the owner). Someone else tried lifting the dog and he wouldn't let go.

So seriously.. If kicking him was going to save another dogs eye.. then yes I would do it again.

What would you do because I am so interested to hear........

by the way as has been stated before there were alot more than 5 off leash dogs running around. Alot more. 5 were belonging to our group. 3 of which hadn't gone near what was happening.

Hellrazer · 27-12-2009 12:19pm

Jen,
Honestly in my opinion you were to blame if your dog was off a lead regardless of how many other dogs were unleashed in that place at that time.Your dog is your responsibility not anyone elses dog.

The fact that the woman did nothing tells me she was terrified which is a natural reaction when you see dogs fighting.

I had a similar situation with our Lab.Our dog was on its lead,a strange dog comes over for a sniff and our lab went a bit mad because it was an unknown dog.I wasnt going to try and stick my hand into that situation and honestly if the owner of the other dog had kicked my dog I can tell you now I would have done more than kicked him.

You should be thankful that the other dogs owner hasnt taken things further after you kicking their dog and that your dog got away lightly.

convert · 27-12-2009 12:21pm

Your dogs were off the lead, and, as you already mentioned, you weren't paying full attention to them all the time. Therefore they weren't under you full control.

You don't know what happened in the few second between your dogs running up to the lady's 'mongeral' and hearing them start fighting. You only saw the 'aftermath' rather than what happened immediately before, so you can't say for certain that your dogs didn't do anything to merit such a reaction by the other dog.

The worst thing that one can do is to get between two fighting dogs. I've known lots of people who have been injured, some of them seriously, because they tried stupidly tried to intervene between fighting dogs. Prehaps the lady in question, as has been suggested above, was injured previously and was so terrified that she literally couldn't move. It's quite common that to happen - it's happened me before in different situations, but I was so afraid that I went into shock and literally couldn't move for a few minutes.

If you were planning to show your dog, then maybe you should have had him on a lead. That way you would have avoided an incident such as that you have outlined above, or any other incident that could be detrimental to you or to your dog.

If in a public area, dogs should be kept on a lead at all times, regardless of whether or not they are calm and friendly. It would prevent so many incidents and arguments.

Magenta · 27-12-2009 12:28pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

Jen,
Honestly in my opinion you were to blame if your dog was off a lead regardless of how many other dogs were unleashed in that place at that time.Your dog is your responsibility not anyone elses dog.

The fact that the woman did nothing tells me she was terrified which is a natural reaction when you see dogs fighting.

I had a similar situation with our Lab.Our dog was on its lead,a strange dog comes over for a sniff and our lab went a bit mad because it was an unknown dog.I wasnt going to try and stick my hand into that situation and honestly if the owner of the other dog had kicked my dog I can tell you now I would have done more than kicked him.

You should be thankful that the other dogs owner hasnt taken things further after you kicking their dog and that your dog got away lightly.

I agree. First she lets her own dog run around doing whatever he likes- by her own admission she wasn't even paying attention to him- then when he runs up to another dog that was probably a fraction of his size, and the other dog reacts, she kicks it?

Jen would you call yourself an animal lover? Or a responsible dog owner?
It sounds to me like you have one rule for yourself and another for the rest of us.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:04pm

Actually convert topdog has given a pretty acurate account of things earlier in the thread. Luckily he remembered more than I had.

Gunnar went for a sniff and her dog lunged for Gunnar and attacked him. And when we got Gunnar off instead of hauling in her dog he managed to lunge for another and almost pull his eye out.

If the owner is not going to do anything - not even yank a lead be she scared or whatever I will kick her dog to save my own.
I would happily pay whatever vet bills for damage I have done to hers. I was not allowing my dog to be KILLED by not reacting.

As I have said before a child could have wandered over and would you have said ah.. sure let the dog maul the child away.... Your not to touch someone elses dog... Even if they are allowing them to maul a child :rolleyes:
My dog is like my child. He is a part of my family so no I would not and will never stand idly by while he is being attacked and crying in pain!
Ye must have very hardened hearts here if ye can just stand and watch...

To be honest I have posted this on 3 forums topdog.ie , a uk samoyed forum and here. This is only place where I have been slated and people turning my personal experience into something personal about themselves because I used the word mongrel to describe a dog which attacked mine...

I would like to know who here can honestly put there hands up and say they have never used a derogatory term to describe another person or animal when they have been livid. Ever. I bet there would be very few who havn't particularly in anger.

I really hope none of yere dogs come upon a similar situation as obviously ye would all stand around and allow them to have an eye pulled out or mauled to death. :rolleyes:

I'm no longer arguing my point here as well I know what I did was the right thing at the time. I have several times taken part responsibility for having him off lead but yet people decide not to read it and continue to tell me Gunnar should have been on a lead.

I have agreed with that. But continue to slate me anyhow.

Gunnar was in that situation along with Ben. The owner did nothing. I wasn't going to sit there and allow a bad situation escalate into a much worse one. I did what I felt was right at the time and I will not justify my actions.

As I said I really hope none of ye ever get into a similar situation and well if you do do not post here.

It must be great to be a boarsdie in this forum. Ye are obviously superior to everyone else and would obviously be calm and rational in a frightening situation......

Yorkiegirl · 27-12-2009 1:49pm

Jen, regardless of what anyone says you just retaliate with viciousness towards them...what exactly do you want people to say ?

that you were right to have five dogs off lead, unsupervised?
that you were right to kick a small dog, who most likely attacked out of pure fear?

it just isn't going to happen..YOU WERE WRONG and I'm glad I've picked up from the threads that your located in Cork, because I would hate to have to risk meeting you and your dogs etc out in public areas.

Put your dogs on leads and let everybody enjoy the public areas.

star-pants · 27-12-2009 1:54pm

Top Dog wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear about your mother being bitten, its never a nice thing.

Can I ask though, would she (knowing she has this inbuilt fear) knowingly take her dog to a popular walking spot where it is common knowledge that a great number of dogs will be off-lead and will also most likely have a sniff of her dog?
Again same sort of question as asked about your mother - if you wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off-lead dogs, would you knowingly bring your dogs to a popular location where the majority (and I'm not exaggerating by saying majority) of other dogs are off-lead?

Thanks - as I said she's fine with our two (unless they're fighting, even play fighting) and is terrified of most other dogs.

My mother can't walk the dogs due to her health so she'd never be holding the lead (for more than a minute or two if I had her do that whilst I was picking up dog poop). We do bring the dogs down to Bray and walk along the beach - shouldn't have to deprive my dogs of a walk along the beach just because other people are walking their dogs off lead. I have no particular issue with people having their dogs off lead once they're under the owners full control and won't just randomly approach people closer than they'd want.
I've had off lead dogs run up to me and jump up or waggle themselves silly to say hello - I have no fear of dogs so I don't mind - but a lot of people do. These are friendly dogs yes, not looking to attack but to say hello.

If they come up to my dogs - that's a different story, my older dog Lily is very very nervy (from her previous owners) and so if I see any other dog coming towards us, I pull both my dogs into a short tight lead so that I have as much control as I can in that situation. This has happened numerous times out on the beach, random dogs coming over to say hello - I have my dogs in close (because I know they're scared and I don't want them to be stressed by trying to get away from a dog) and I put myself between them and the other dog (if it's overly friendly). My little one will bark and bark (doubt she'd attack, she just likes to show off being tough) and she'll be protecting my older one. IF the owner is there or I see the owner, I'll say 'sorry my dogs are rather nervous, they won't like your dog at them' - and the owners will pull them away or call them whatever.

Most of the off lead dogs on the beach are called away by their owners (successfully) before they reach mine. Which is how it should be IMO. IF you're going to have your dog off lead, have full control and have it not wander up to ever tom dick and harry. Because you just don't know what will happen. So yes I'd walk them in the park or at the beach because I feel that I'm watching every move of my dogs and dogs that come into my 'radar' lets say and can do my best to manage each situation as it comes. Not saying something would never happen, but at least if I have mine under control/on lead/behind me, I can protect them.

jen_23 wrote: »

As I have said before a child could have wandered over and would you have said ah.. sure let the dog maul the child away.... Your not to touch someone elses dog... Even if they are allowing them to maul a child :rolleyes:
My dog is like my child. He is a part of my family so no I would not and will never stand idly by while he is being attacked and crying in pain!
Ye must have very hardened hearts here if ye can just stand and watch...

You keep bringing up a child - now, you say that if you saw a child out or whatever, you'd call Gunnar in or put him on a lead. Why do you not extend the same curtsey to other dogs? What if Gunnar wandered up to a child and knocked it over? What if he went up and the child hit him because it was too young or scared or was a horrible child? Would you be blaming the parents for most of it?

As I've said to Top_Dog above -- I've no issue with dogs off lead - once they're under full control of the owner, you shouldn't just assume that because your dog is friendly and comfortable just going right up to another dog that other dogs are the same. As said, my dogs wouldn't be happy with a bigger dog (especially) coming up to them into their face, whether to say hello or otherwise. I come across dogs off lead even going around my block for a walk with my two, most of the other dogs have zero interest in mine, which is probably why they're off lead, because they're off having their walk, not interested/trained not to go up to other people/other dogs. And that's fine by me, mine are on leads, if they start barking, I have control and can give a quick pull and a 'come on'.
When I am passing children - with or without their parents - I will say that my dogs are nervous and not to try petting them, because who knows how every dog will react to being scared.

Jen_23 wrote:

I would like to know who here can honestly put there hands up and say they have never used a derogatory term to describe another person or animal when they have been livid. Ever. I bet there would be very few who havn't particularly in anger.

I really hope none of yere dogs come upon a similar situation as obviously ye would all stand around and allow them to have an eye pulled out or mauled to death. :rolleyes:

It's *how* you wrote your opening post that rubbed people the wrong way, I've already explained this. You had the time to carefully type out the breeds of all 6 dogs (only two of which were involved with the fight) and carefully post 7 photos of differing angles of the injury, and strikeout the word 'lady' for idiot. So whilst you wrote in anger, you took time with certain points.
TBH mongrel wouldn't come into my head if I was describing a dog that attacked mine - I'd be like 'that f*cker of a dog* or whatever.
Top_dog gave a full and proper account of what happened, had you posted the way he did - I don't think half the people would have had as much of an issue. Yes it's making a mountain out of a molehill over using the word mongrel - BUT - in it's context of your post - it came across rather badly.

Of course I'd get involved if my dogs were being attacked, whilst I know it's a dangerous thing to do. BUT a short story!
My friends dog, who is allowed wander up and down her road, always has - was attacked by an on lead dog before. Myself and my friend (teens at the time) were at one end of the road and saw him a few houses down, we called hi and he came to greet us. HE happened to pass a man walking his little dog, and stopped to say hello, the dog went for him (we weren't right there so we don't realy know, but Indys very passive so we think not) and there was suddenly a brawl.
We ran up, and tried to pull them apart without luck, we were both fairly scared too cuz we both nearly were bitten. The man wasn't trying to pull his dog away, but was kicking my friends dog. My friends dad came out and managed to separate them. The man gave out stink saying we shouldn't have a dog off lead / that attacks dogs /so forth. My friends dad said that he was probably just saying hello but lesson learned BUT that if that man ever kicked his dog again, he'd be back for the man with his stick.

So - these things can happen yes, was it the man with the dog on a leads fault for walking his dog? Or my friends for allowing her dog roam around?
She's been my friend for 12 + years, but I didn't agree with the dog being allowed to roam, because things like this happen. I know he was roaming free, and yours was roaming in front of you but still - neither you nor I (&my friend) had control over the situation.

I've had on lead dogs go for mine, but because when I'm meeting another dog I have mine tight and close to me, I can pull mine back quicker so they don't (hopefully) get bitten. I do let other dogs sniff mine and vice versa, but only in the situation where I've already said hello to the other dog and can see if my dogs and their dog are comfortable with the situation.

Jen_23 wrote:

As I said I really hope none of ye ever get into a similar situation and well if you do do not post here.

It must be great to be a boarsdie in this forum. Ye are obviously superior to everyone else and would obviously be calm and rational in a frightening situation......

People were slating you because of your initial view, your opening post came across that the other lady was in the wrong, even after you admitted part fault you continued to blame the lady for doing nothing.

You've just said right there 'everyone else would obviously be calm and rational in a frightening situation' -- but yet this woman wasn't rational or calm in a frightening situation and you're slating *her* for it. You've not once said 'ok maybe the woman was frightened and that's not her fault'. You still think that if she was frightened it didn't excuse her non actions at the time.

People have sympathy for the dogs yes - I sure do, because I've seen that situation and it's scary and it's a quick reaction that might save the day. The dogs are lucky it wasn't worse and it's horrible that it happened to them. And I know how awful I'd feel if either of my dogs were hurt, I couldn't bear it.
But at the end of the day, you and whomever else are their owners, and you have to look out for them too. I think some people are annoyed you allowed your dog to get into a situation whereby it got hurt.

Magenta · 27-12-2009 2:00pm

jen_23 wrote: »

he only had a little scrape.

Let him rip his face off or wait for the owner to come to her senses at somepoint when perhaps he had been mauled half to death...

Can I ask what would you have done?
Your dog is being mauled...

I was not allowing my dog to be KILLED by not reacting.

I really hope none of yere dogs come upon a similar situation as obviously ye would all stand around and allow them to have an eye pulled out or mauled to death. :rolleyes:

Oh for Christs sake quit the drama. Your dog has, in your own words "a little scrape". If the he was "mauled" as you say he was, where's the puncture wounds from the other dog's teeth? Where are the wounds?

If he really felt threatened he would have fought back, unless he really is stupid enough to allow himself to be "mauled to death" (:rolleyes:) by a terrier that was probably a fraction of his size.

jen_23 wrote: »

To be honest I have posted this on 3 forums topdog.ie , a uk samoyed forum and here. This is only place where I have been slated not been told what I want to hear. I should be able to do whatever I like!

Fixed that for you.

jen_23 wrote: »

Can I ask what would you have done?

What would you do because I am so interested to hear........

I would have called my dog back and tightened the leash to prevent him from bothering dogs he doesn't know. Unfortunately you neglected to pay attention to what your dog was doing and didn't have a lead on him so those options weren't available to you. :rolleyes:

convert · 27-12-2009 3:51pm

jen_23 wrote: »

Actually convert topdog has given a pretty acurate account of things earlier in the thread. Luckily he remembered more than I had.

I am aware of that, and I actually read it:

Top Dog wrote: »

I know exactly what happened.

Gunnar, along with Ben (another Samoyed), Joey (a Golden) and Banjo (a Papillon) were wandering along in front of their owners. No bounding, just wandering and sniffing.

Along come another 2 dogs, and as with each of the 8 dogs we'd previously met, our lot wander over (not bound, not threatening, not aggressive) to say hello & have a sniff.

However, it only states that the dogs wandered over to have a sniff and say hello. If one has ever watched dogs' behaviour, it may be observed that sometimes a sniff can be more than just a 'hello', and may actually be interpreted/intended as being aggressive or invasive.

Perhaps the dog in question felt threatened and decided it was better to take the offensive rather than risk being attacked by your dog and friends' dogs?

bada-bing · 27-12-2009 8:31pm

I must say having read this thread I find Jens attitude completely and utterly shocking. I own a medium (mixed breed) dog who i rescued 2 years ago. Luckily for me he came relatively well trained, he is friendly and excellent with children. He was already very, very street wise with regards to traffic etc when i got him, and it took him very little time to learn to heel at command to cross roads and pedestrian crossings etc. As a result i almost always walk him off the lead. However if i see another dog coming being walked on a lead I will always assume that dog to be vicious and call my dog to heel. It has happened me on a few occasions when me and the little fella were only finding our feet that he has ran off on me, to 'socialise' and a few times he has been attacked. Obviously at those times I have gotten a fright and ran over to try and resuce him. I have apologised to the owners of the dog who attacked, as i felt it was entirely my own fault if my dog is so badly trained that he ignores my commands and enters the space of another dog who is being walked on the lead. Once my dog has been attacked whilst on the lead my a massive dog and i got a terrible terrible fright. It is much more frightening to be in this position, where a bigger dog comes over and you dont know whether to pick uo your dog and risk being bitten or what to do. That woman had every right to be annoyed and moreso was under no obligation to get involved and 'rescue' your dog. She probably said good enough for him, it will teach him a lesson which is exactly what i have told my little doggy when he has come back to me with his tail inbetween his legs after getting a fright - i told him so! (and before you say it yes I know he cant understand me.. but he does seem to have understood the message). If i were her and you KICKED my small dog who I had under full control then i would have been extremely annoyed. I hope this has thought you to keep your five dogs under control in any area where other dog walkers are also present as this is only fair.

PeakOutput · 27-12-2009 11:05pm

jen your dog being attacked was your fault at the end of the day

the aggresive dog was on a lead

fine she didnt react properly it seems but the attack was your fault end of story

lrushe · 27-12-2009 11:11pm

Honestly, if this was my dog, I would be apologising to the lady for scaring both her and her dog. She had her dog under control and on leash as the law requires, your dog invaded her space and caused itself to be injured. A Samoyed is quite a big dog, and for anyone not familiar with their placid temperment they could feel quite intimidated. The smaller dog doesn't sound agressive to me, it sounds nervous, it would have shown this with body language, body language your dog obviously ignored and it paid the price. Instead of pointing the finger of blame let this be a lesson to both you and your dog to pay a little bit more respect to other dogs / dogwalkers.

Sigma Force · 27-12-2009 11:17pm

Ok the OP did not have her friendly dog on a lead, however it's been said over and over again that the woman holding the dog on the lead did nothing, didn't react in any way to pull her dog off. It's not one persons fault.

It's sad that no one can walk their dogs off lead anywhere in this country anymore wether you live in the countryside or the town.

Most people that walk their dogs regularly have friendly dogs, you usually only get the odd narky one.

If people want to give out to op for walking their dogs off lead then they should go out on the streets and give out in person to every other person walking their dog off lead and also those people who allow their dogs to wander.

Ok perhaps op should have kept all the dogs on leads but it sounds like even if the dog was on a lead the little dog would of attacked anyway when they went over to sniff.

Some of my pooches aren't the friendliest to other dogs and I will say that as someone tries to approach sounds like this woman who had the dog on the lead didn't even say hey can you put your dog on a lead as my lad isn't very dog friendly.

I can't see how it's all the ops fault, and you would be suprised at your own reaction if your dog was attacked by another dog wether it was your fault or not, it's never a nice experience and you do what you can to protect your own dog and try not to get bitten in the process.

From readin the posts all I can see is that the op perhaps should have had her dog on a lead..but why when very few people have their dogs on leads when walking in a common area where dogs are walked regularly.

At least the op stepped in with others to sort it out it's not as if they sat back and watched, they tried to stop it happening while the other dog owner just stood there like an wally when it was her dog doing the attacking.

Do people honestly watch their dogs behaviour every second they are out on a walk...no they bloomin well don't. You can sneeze and miss something no body is the perfect dog owner.

lrushe · 27-12-2009 11:35pm

Guineapigrescue wrote: »

Do people honestly watch their dogs behaviour every second they are out on a walk...no they bloomin well don't. You can sneeze and miss something no body is the perfect dog owner.

I keep a good enough eye on my dogs not to allow them to approach strangers and their dogs and if I didn't I wouldn't get on a forum confessing to kicking a small on leashed dog, who was minding its own business and in its eyes was only defending itself and expect anyone to back me up.

jen_23 · 28-12-2009 1:19am

star-pants wrote: »

People have sympathy for the dogs yes - I sure do, because I've seen that situation and it's scary and it's a quick reaction that might save the day. The dogs are lucky it wasn't worse and it's horrible that it happened to them. And I know how awful I'd feel if either of my dogs were hurt, I couldn't bear it.
But at the end of the day, you and whomever else are their owners, and you have to look out for them too. I think some people are annoyed you allowed your dog to get into a situation whereby it got hurt.

I understand where your coming from starpants that I allowed my dog to become hurt from not having him on a lead and obviously the woman may have been frightened but as you said you have to look out for your own dog when a situation like that arises.
At that point it's too late for what ifs and I do feel bad for not having him leashed that day. Believe me when I say lesson learned and I probably won't ever walk him in that area again. I'm going to stick to areas I know to be quieter in the future.

I basically have stopped replying to this thread as it is just going in circles.
I couldn't be bothered giving people more amunition to be honest.

The incident should never have happened but it did. I was angry another dog owner did nothing. Fine her dog was on a lead however even if Gunnar had been on a loose lead it still *might* have happened.

I would like people out there to honestly think. If your dog was in that situation what would you do? And I don't mean you wouldn't have let him get into that situation. Pretend for a second that like me ye weren't perfect and in a split second things got out of control.
Your dog is being attacked by another dog. Would ye stand there and allow him to lose an eye (which both dogs almost did. Had the injury been 1/2 cm lower) while you have a calm conversation with your friend and wait for your dog to retaliate (which you know he won't do.. as it's just not his nature).
Would you try everything to seperate your dog. Especially when you thought he had the second dogs eye! Would you just stand there and do nothing?
I don't think so.

Now I did what I felt was neccesary given the situation as obviously according to what has been theorized about the woman (who no one here has ever met or dealt with) was too terrified to move. Though she wasn't too terrified to shout or be aggressive with us afterwards.

If it was the fact she was terrified fine. But was I supposed to wait for her to unfreeze and call her dog off?

I didn't I reacted along with the people who were there and we had tried pulling the dogs apart, lift both dogs, push/pull everything, before he was kicked.

I don't care about the dogs size in relation to Gunnar. It doesn't mean he was any less capable of doing serious damage. When my dog is standing there whining and crying because he is in pain. I WILL react.

I will not justify this any further to the people here. It sounds to me that if people can stand idly by and let their dog be attacked and wait for the attack to resolve itself or the owner to eventually react at well some point... who knows if she was going to then do ye really love yere dogs if ye can see them in pain? And at the time you are not certain that the dog has his teeth in another dogs eye? (luckily he hadn't but we thought he had).

IF ye can find yerselves in this particular situation. If ye are afterall not perfect and you walk your dog offlead somewhere you *think* to be a safe spot. IF your dog is BEING bitten by another and ye do not react. Then judge me. But I did and would do again what I did to protect my dog regardless of fault.

Just because I am part fault for my dog being off lead does not mean I should stand and do nothing while he is crying in pain.

The blame to me here doesn't matter when the damage is being done.

Fine I should have had Gunnar on a lead. But again I have already admitted that I am not perfect ( and by the way for the poster who thought all 5 dogs were mine.. only 1 was) and well the situation happened.

Now that is the last time I will explain my actions. I want the thread locked please as I think that it's just running in circles.

Graces7 · 28-12-2009 10:06am

I was talking to someone in Canada about this thread.

There, laws are stricter.

The dog attacking would have been destroyed, and there are signs to that effect at the entrance to every park....

But also anyone with dogs off leash unless it was a designated area for off leash walking, would have been in serious trouble.

Very few dogs are 100% reliable; especially where their personal space is concerned.

The image I get of five people wading in... yes the woman should have picked her small dog up immediately... But with five dogs and five people?

It is so very hard for city folk.

lrushe wrote: »

I keep a good enough eye on my dogs not to allow them to approach strangers and their dogs and if I didn't I wouldn't get on a forum confessing to kicking a small on leashed dog, who was minding its own business and in its eyes was only defending itself and expect anyone to back me up.

bega · 28-12-2009 11:32am

Its quite simple. ALWAYS put your dog on a lead when approaching another dog who is leashed!!

Regardless of how friendly, calm etc your dog is. It is basic manners!!

On another note, never hit, strike or kick a dog in the midst of a confrontation. You will make it worse. You will cause them to defend themselves & their pack (human & canine) even more.

star-pants · 28-12-2009 12:51pm

Thread locked on OPs request

SSssooooo annoyed!

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