Career in Law

ILoveMonkeys · 23-09-2014 2:38am #1

Hi

I am not sure whether I am posting this in the right forum, or if it would be better suited to the legal one. Anyway, I studied law for 5 years, I completed my undergraduate degree in 2010 and then completed a Masters in Law in 2011.

I worked as a legal intern in one of the top 5 companies for 6 months in 2013. I found the experience quite off-putting as it was very intense and I didn't feel competent to be honest. However, having said that, most of the trainees who started at the same time as me expressed much the same concerns and I wouldn't be the most self confident anyway.

Since this experience, I feel lost. My motivation is gone and I am 25 now. I am really not sure whether to proceed in the area of law or chose an alternative career. I think I owe it to myself to at least try before automatically assuming that I am going to fail in this field.

However, I know that it is difficult to get work and I have yet to sit the FE'1 exams. I would love to hear some advice from qualified or training solicitors as to whether this is a career worth pursuing at the moment, given the current economic climate. THis is also influencing my motivation, as I m aware of many qualified solicitors that are out of work at the moment.

Just lost at the minute and not sure what to do. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

WhiteWalls · 23-09-2014 7:35pm

could be better posted in the legal discussion

Mrs OBumble · 23-09-2014 9:37pm

Moved from Work and Jobs - mods, if it doesn't fit your charter, feel free to move it back.

Bepolite · 23-09-2014 9:50pm

Rarely do I meet a happy solicitor, frequently I meet happy barristers; despite their lot in life.

If you're not feeling it I'd turn my hand to something else in all honesty, it's not an easy path and you really have to want it to make a go of it.

You could go down the BL route and look for in-house/public sector work.

johnnyskeleton · 23-09-2014 9:51pm

Dont worry:

A. 25 is far too young to be so cynical; and
2. The top 5 firms are not indicative of the entire practise of law.

Which leads me on to:
iii) if it doesnt work out, the important thing is you gave it your best shot and have a masters level degree to show for it!

johnnyskeleton · 23-09-2014 9:54pm

Bepolite wrote: »

Rarely do I meet a happy solicitor, frequently I meet happy barristers; despite their lot in life.

Happy lawyers are all alike, unhappy lawyers are unique as to their own wants!

patsypantaloni · 23-09-2014 9:58pm

Are there any areas of law you have an interest in, or that you particularly liked studying?

You don't have to go into practice, either as a solicitor or barrister, a law degree and masters can be a good gateway to all sorts of careers depending on what you're interested in?

ILoveMonkeys · 24-09-2014 2:24am

Thanks guys for all the replies:)

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Dont worry:

A. 25 is far too young to be so cynical; and
2. The top 5 firms are not indicative of the entire practise of law.

Which leads me on to:
iii) if it doesnt work out, the important thing is you gave it your best shot and have a masters level degree to show for it!

Do you have any experience of the smaller/medium sized firms? I am just wondering whether the atmosphere, pressure, working hours would be largely different. I really found the whole experience in the top 5 firm to be a complete de-motivator.

patsypantaloni wrote: »

Are there any areas of law you have an interest in, or that you particularly liked studying?

You don't have to go into practice, either as a solicitor or barrister, a law degree and masters can be a good gateway to all sorts of careers depending on what you're interested in?

Well my Masters was in commercial law. However, that choice was largely based on advise that it would be easier and more profitable to find legal jobs based in a commercial setting ( as opposed to family law etc).

What qualification or training would a paralegal position involve?

Peregrinus · 24-09-2014 3:56am

ILoveMonkeys wrote: »

What qualification or training would a paralegal position involve?

Much less qualification and training than you already have. Not many paralegals would have an undergraduate degree in law, never mind a master's.

In my day - which was the 1980s - the accepted wisdom was that about half of all law gruduates would never practice law, and many of them never intended to. A law degree was highly regarded as a good general education, and a lot of legal graduates went into banking, management consultancy, accountancy and similar professions. Have you considered following that route?

Pat Mustard · 24-09-2014 9:33am

Or tax law. Mr. Incognito posts in this forum. He highly recommends this as a career.

johnnyskeleton · 24-09-2014 9:45am

ILoveMonkeys wrote: »

Do you have any experience of the smaller/medium sized firms? I am just wondering whether the atmosphere, pressure, working hours would be largely different. I really found the whole experience in the top 5 firm to be a complete

The mesium sized firms can still ask for log houra but the small litigation and general practise firms usually work 9-5.30 with the occasional extra few hours. The atmosphere can vary from firm to firm but moat would be fairly reasonable. The trohnle is however that they are less frequently employing people/giving training contracts so it involves a bit more leg work to get going in one

Arbiter of Good Taste · 24-09-2014 10:20am

The Mustard wrote: »

Or tax law. Mr. Incognito posts in this forum. He highly recommends this as a career.

I second that

impr0v · 25-09-2014 8:52pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Dont worry:

A. 25 is far too young to be so cynical; and
2. The top 5 firms are not indicative of the entire practise of law.

Which leads me on to:
iii) if it doesnt work out, the important thing is you gave it your best shot and have a masters level degree to show for it!

Further or in the alternative:

d What you are describing sounds more to me like fear that you won't cut it, rather than a sudden disillusionment with the law. You've made it this far, so you clearly like and/or have aptitude for it - why not push it a step or two further and see where it goes?
5) Some of the "competence" that you see from an intern's position on the floor of a commercial law firm is just a studied front for exactly the fear that you describe.
VI. Some of the intensity that you feel from an intern's position on the floor of a commercial law firm is a by-product of the energy that it takes to maintain the said studied front.

ILoveMonkeys · 26-09-2014 2:22am

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to reply:)

Peregrinus wrote: »

Much less qualification and training than you already have. Not many paralegals would have an undergraduate degree in law, never mind a master's.

In my day - which was the 1980s - the accepted wisdom was that about half of all law gruduates would never practice law, and many of them never intended to. A law degree was highly regarded as a good general education, and a lot of legal graduates went into banking, management consultancy, accountancy and similar professions. Have you considered following that route?

Yes I have considered them but I guess I thought that as I had gone so far down the legal route that I should stick with it. However, I get your point, and I seem to be placing my own limitations on options, both law and otherwise.

The Mustard wrote: »

Or tax law. Mr. Incognito posts in this forum. He highly recommends this as a career.

I really hadn't considered tax law. I have looked into it now though and seems like a good possible option. Thanks for the suggestion:)

impr0v wrote: »

Further or in the alternative:

d What you are describing sounds more to me like fear that you won't cut it, rather than a sudden disillusionment with the law. You've made it this far, so you clearly like and/or have aptitude for it - why not push it a step or two further and see where it goes?
5) Some of the "competence" that you see from an intern's position on the floor of a commercial law firm is just a studied front for exactly the fear that you describe.
VI. Some of the intensity that you feel from an intern's position on the floor of a commercial law firm is a by-product of the energy that it takes to maintain the said studied front.

Yeah you are right. I always had a fear of failure and this has been greatly exacerbated by my internship experience. Its brought me to a standstill. I enjoyed the type of work that I did during the internship, I just found myself overwhelmed by the volume of it, and some of the personalities I worked under.

ILoveMonkeys · 26-09-2014 2:26am

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I second that

One more question, with regard to the above. Would tax law be somewhat of a compromise between the work of a solicitor and an accountant? As I guess I generally considered the role of a tax consultant closer to that of a business/accountancy stream as opposed to law, despite it revolving around tax law.

Peregrinus · 26-09-2014 2:52am

ILoveMonkeys wrote: »

One more question, with regard to the above. Would tax law be somewhat of a compromise between the work of a solicitor and an accountant? As I guess I generally considered the role of a tax consultant closer to that of a business/accountancy stream as opposed to law, despite it revolving around tax law.

If you intend to do tax practice, you should qualify either as a solcitor or barrister or as an accountant. It probably doesn't greatly matter which - pretty soon your practice experience will be more significant to employers than your professional qualification - but the qualification gives you status and credibility at the start of your career, and matters signficantly later on when things like admission to partnership or running your own practice start to become a possibility.

ILoveMonkeys · 26-09-2014 2:58am

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you intend to do tax practice, you should qualify either as a solcitor or barrister or as an accountant. It probably doesn't greatly matter which - pretty soon your practice experience will be more significant to employers than your professional qualification - but the qualification gives you status and credibility at the start of your career, and matters signficantly later on when things like admission to partnership or running your own practice start to become a possibility.

OK so you would not recommend proceeding to do the tax exams straight away after completing a law degree without any professional qualification?

Peregrinus · 26-09-2014 3:12am

ILoveMonkeys wrote: »

OK so you would not recommend proceeding to do the tax exams straight away after completing a law degree without any professional qualification?

If you want to do the tax exams first, do. Or you can get the professional qualification, and then do the tax exams. Or you can pursue both in parallel. (How else are you going to pass the long evenings during your traineeship?) But somewhere along the way you should plan to secure a professional qualification.

wannabegard · 26-09-2014 8:34pm

Hi. Sorry to butt in but im looking for a bit of advice. Im from a non-law background myself but have recently completed a masters in Human Right and Criminal Justice in UL. I found this course very interesting and stimulating on top of other law modules that i completed during m undergraduate and i would like to try to get a legal job somewhere in order to gain experience before i decide to apply for the FE1s. I have applied for several JobBridge positions in Limerick and Clare at small firms but so far I have had no luck. I would be very efficient at research and I am a quick learner but I am having a lot of difficulty finding a position and i have been trying for several months. Do you have any advice on what i should do and if there are any courses i should take as i do not have experience in the workplace as my main focus to this point has been on achieving a first class honors in my course. I have enrolled in an ECDL course for the end of October and i am considering doing a law course in order to bring myself up to speed on the basics but i am pretty much flying blind here at the moment and do not know what i should be doing?

LutherBlissett · 27-09-2014 10:48pm

Bepolite wrote: »

Rarely do I meet a happy solicitor, frequently I meet happy barristers; despite their lot in life.

If you're not feeling it I'd turn my hand to something else in all honesty, it's not an easy path and you really have to want it to make a go of it.

You could go down the BL route and look for in-house/public sector work.

Happy barristers "despite their lot in life"?

"Their lot in life". What a thing to say. It's not like they are terminally ill. They have gone into the career with their eyes open (one would hope). For some, it can be (and in fact is) a lucrative career choice. There are always supplementary work possibilities (lecturing etc) if individuals are not making money doing barrister work per se. That is relatively unique to that profession. If things are not working out on all fronts, the mobility to up and leave the bar and move to another profession is significant. "Their lot in life". Honestly!

Bepolite · 28-09-2014 11:53am

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Happy barristers "despite their lot in life"?

"Their lot in life". What a thing to say. It's not like they are terminally ill. They have gone into the career with their eyes open (one would hope). For some, it can be (and in fact is) a lucrative career choice. There are always supplementary work possibilities (lecturing etc) if individuals are not making money doing barrister work per se. That is relatively unique to that profession. If things are not working out on all fronts, the mobility to up and leave the bar and move to another profession is significant. "Their lot in life". Honestly!

Many are working at well under the minimum wage, the lecturing opportunities are limited and they are at the mercy of solicitors to pay them when they do carry out work. Beyond lecturing, writing and editing journals they are barred from doing other work. There are many people making money at everything from spaceship rides to professional poker. It does't mean the profession as a whole is remunerated consummate to the effort and talent required. Most barristers will find it very difficult to build a practise purely because of financial constraints, not because they aren't capable or don't work hard enough.

As for moving on professions. Yes technically you're still a barrister but your not practising. For many of us practice is what we want to do; assuming we measure up and are able to make a go of it I don't think it's unreasonable to say one has it tough if it takes 5 years or more to reach the industrial average wage.

LutherBlissett · 28-09-2014 2:39pm

While they might technically be barred from doing other work (although I am not sure that is the case), I know many barristers who do non legal work to supplant their income.

They are not confined to lecturing/ writing (and for all that is said about those things being scarce, I have known plenty of people who have undertaken them). Even if they were, they possess free choice - if it is not working, they can leave. They can cross qualify to become a solicitor, go in house, move over to tax/ banking (in compliance)...the mobility to leave is not so restricted as suggested.

Bepolite · 28-09-2014 3:27pm

LutherBlissett wrote: »

While they might technically be barred from doing other work (although I am not sure that is the case), I know many barristers who do non legal work to supplant their income.

It is the case and the fact that so many are forced to do it anyway only proves my point.

LutherBlissett wrote: »

They are not confined to lecturing/ writing (and for all that is said about those things being scarce, I have known plenty of people who have undertaken them).

As above, they are indeed confined to those professions (or were until very recently if it's changed). Plenty undertake them, while they can, bearing in mind if they lecture during the day they may have to pass on work that would further their practice. If you think that, even in Dublin, it's not difficult to come by I'm not sure you're completely aware of the situation.

I've had a lecturer that will be in Court in Tullamore and have to be back in Dublin for a 8pm lecture which runs to 10pm.

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Even if they were, they possess free choice - if it is not working, they can leave. They can cross qualify to become a solicitor, go in house, move over to tax/ banking (in compliance)...the mobility to leave is not so restricted as suggested.

What has free will/the ability to leave got to do with anything? People who go into this job do it, and are happy to do it, because it's what they want to do. It doesn't mean that the job, like that of a junior doctor isn't one that many people look upon and think that's not a great way of life. No one has suggested it is difficult to leave the profession; the 60% attrition rate at the bar is one factor proving it's easy to leave.

I'm not sure what your point is in all of this? It's either a relatively tough job and my tongue in cheek comment stands or you think it's easy?

lawfilly · 28-09-2014 8:53pm

Just to clarify a point here, barristers are not barred from taking up other work.

The rules in the code of conduct were relaxed as the Bar Council understand that people need to supplement their income.

This is not always lecturing etc either!

Be careful making assertions not based on experience or knowledge especially if you are considering a career as a barrister.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 28-09-2014 9:00pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you intend to do tax practice, you should qualify either as a solcitor or barrister or as an accountant. It probably doesn't greatly matter which - pretty soon your practice experience will be more significant to employers than your professional qualification - but the qualification gives you status and credibility at the start of your career, and matters signficantly later on when things like admission to partnership or running your own practice start to become a possibility.

Not necessarily so. I know plenty of professionals with just an AITI qualification who are significantly better paid than lawyers or accountants.

Bepolite · 28-09-2014 9:01pm

lawfilly wrote: »

Just to clarify a point here, barristers are not barred from taking up other work.

The rules in the code of conduct were relaxed as the Bar Council understand that people need to supplement their income.

This is not always lecturing etc either!

Be careful making assertions not based on experience or knowledge especially if you are considering a career as a barrister.

While I'm willing to concede that I was wrong on that point (and did indicate that it may have changed) that doesn't change anything else I've said. If anything it underscores the point that, at least for the majority for a number of years, it is extremely tough going. It would seem even the Bar Council would agree at this point.

Career in Law

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