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New advice leaflet on use of metal detectors in Ireland

Comments

  • #2
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    A timely post.
    A series is to start soon on BBC which is supposed to be a wry look at the habits of metal detectorists in the UK.
    This is bound to have a knock on effect here with people assuming that the same laws apply in Ireland. Of course they don't.
    We have a regulatory system that is the envy of all right thinking UK archaeologists.
    Ironically, the laws we take pride in were introduced to prevent a repeat of the desecration of Tara by the British Israelites in their search for the Holy Grail.

    Some things never change.


  • #3
    Jakub25
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭Jakub25


    Hi,
    It is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for "archaeological objects"

    Artifact is an object, which may have a "cultural interest"



    Read exactly this discussion.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057118847


    If anybody is confused should go to lawyer for legal advice.


  • #4
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Jakub25 wrote: »
    Hi,
    It is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for"archaeological objects"
    CORRECT
    Artifact is an object, which may have a "cultural interest"
    INCORRECT. This vague description of what an artefact is, is utterly irrelevant.
    Read exactly this discussion.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057118847
    If anybody is confused should go to lawyer for legal advice.
    Indeed. The lawyer will then advise that the legally binding definition of an archaeological object is as follows:

    'the expression “archaeological object” means any chattel whether in a manufactured or partly manufactured or an unmanufactured state which by reason of the archaeological interest attaching thereto or of its association with any Irish historical event or person has a value substantially greater than its intrinsic (including artistic) value, and the said expression includes ancient human and animal remains and does not include treasure trove in which the rights of the State have not been waived.'
    -National Monuments Act 1930. Section 2.2

    (see point 3 in the summary of key points in the explanatory leaflet above)


  • #5
    davycc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,019 ✭✭✭davycc


    baaba maal wrote: »
    Clear and concise for anybody looking to see what is, and isn't, allowed:

    http://www.museum.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=e11999f3-af88-46d0-998d-ae047670058c

    I can't see anything new with this leaflet? No offence op but this is probably a year and a half old by now...


  • #6
    baaba maal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 772 ✭✭✭baaba maal


    None taken, I was given to understand that it was only just published so I put it up? I know the info in it isn't any different, just thought it was a useful summary and given the ongoing discussions on boards I thought it would help.


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  • #7
    Durz0 Blint
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭Durz0 Blint


    I had a look through the leaflet and was wondering if the sale of metal detectors is completely banned in Ireland? Just wondering because I have seen kids versions of metal detectors on sale in the Smiths toys near the Jervis shopping center in Dublin.

    Is this allowed? They're probably very low powered but they do encourage kids to go tearing up the place looking for things.


  • #8
    davycc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,019 ✭✭✭davycc


    No they aren't illegal to buy or sell either, we even have one of the worlds biggest manufacturers based in co cork.. Minelab .


  • #9
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    In case a misleading impression is given:

    It is illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects without a license.

    It is illegal in to promote the sale or use of metal detectors.

    For clarity:

    An archaeological object is essentially any object that can inform us about the past.
    The past could be 800BC, or last Tuesday.
    Therefore, it is illegal to use a metal detector to search for any object from any preceding time, without a license.

    Forget any of the misinformation disseminated by persons heavily invested in the sale of these devices. Staying clear of national monuments is not a defence against prosecution under the National Monuments Act.
    Detecting on the beach is not a defence.
    Having the landowners' permission is not a defence.
    Owning a card from a retailer is not a defence.

    Despite the impression created, the laws are not going to change. They are not going to change because they are one of the few pieces of legislation this country has got right.
    Irish legislation on this matter is envied the world over.


  • #10
    davycc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,019 ✭✭✭davycc


    That is fair enough obviously 8000 year objects are archaeological and deserve all the protection possible.. I disagree entirely on you stating object from last Tuesday deserve the same though ..

    Even at a philosophical level you can't possibly claim such a thing sorry.even the last advice leaflet contradicts that modern a timescale.

    And if it is illegal to buy and sell metal detectors., how come out I haven't heard of one single person or business being charged?

    Ever?in?the?history?of?the?state?


  • #11
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    davycc wrote: »
    That is fair enough obviously 8000 year objects are archaeological and deserve all the protection possible.. I disagree entirely on you stating object from last Tuesday deserve the same though ..

    Even at a philosophical level you can't possibly claim such a thing sorry.even the last advice leaflet contradicts that modern a timescale.
    The NMI leaflet clearly says what seem like modern artefacts can be defined as archaeological objects under the act.
    Commonplace objects of relatively recent date such as coins and militaria, including 20th century material, may fall within the category of ‘archaeological object’. Such objects may come within the terms of the definition regardless of their date and degree of antiquity.

    Anyway if a detector makes a beep there is no way of discerning whether it is a modern coin or a fragile 8th cen reliquary.
    davycc wrote: »

    And if it is illegal to buy and sell metal detectors., how come out I haven't heard of one single person or business being charged?

    Ever?in?the?history?of?the?state?
    It is illegal to sale and promote them for searching for archaeological objects.


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  • #12
    davycc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,019 ✭✭✭davycc


    I was replying to the poster who asked if" the sale of metal detectors were completely illegal in Ireland"

    Thankfully they are not completely illegal.

    That was my main point and SB claiming an object from last Tuesday as an archaeological object was a ridiculous archaeologists wet dream which with nobody could ever agree with sorry.


  • #13
    Bonedigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Bonedigger


    It seems the Curragh has in recent months become fair game for metal detecting.I was standing close to Raheenanairy ring-barrow this morning when a chap approached on a bicycle.He stopped within 50 metres of another barrow a short distance away,removed a bag from his back,which had something protruding from it,and then to my astonishment,started to assemble a metal detector.Needless to say,I explained to him what the law is in relation to the use of metal detectors in close proximity to national monuments.He said he was unaware of such laws!This is a person I've had to warn before(I approached him last year while he was also detecting elsewhere on the Curragh,but he didn't recognise me this time).This is a seasoned metal detectorist,he knows what he's doing.I will be contacting the National Monuments Service to report this incident.
    Several months ago,not far from where this incident happened today,I had to warn a couple(who had their kids along for the fun) to cease detecting within metres of another barrow.Despite my warning,they continued to do so.
    Both Raheenanairy barrow and another in close proximity were 'night-hawked' last year,which I reported to the National Monuments Service.

    I'm sure Davy,you find this reprehensible behaviour,and would ask kindly if you could bring this to the attention of the administrators on the Irish Metal Detecting Forum?I know the forum has warnings posted in relation to detecting around National Monuments already,but it would be appreciated if this particular issue could be addressed,particularly where an archaeologically sensitive landscape such as the Curragh is concerned.I ask because the forum is in all likelihood a first port of call for novice detectorists.


  • #14
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    davycc wrote: »

    That was my main point and SB claiming an object from last Tuesday as an archaeological object was a ridiculous archaeologists wet dream which with nobody could ever agree with sorry.

    Well it would be great to hear your understanding of what constitutes an archaeological object, or indeed, archaeology itself.

    At what point in time, does an object begin or cease to be of archaeological interest?


  • #15
    davycc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,019 ✭✭✭davycc


    Bonedigger wrote: »
    It seems the Curragh has in recent months become fair game for metal detecting.I was standing close to Raheenanairy ring-barrow this morning when a chap approached on a bicycle.He stopped within 50 metres of another barrow a short distance away,removed a bag from his back,which had something protruding from it,and then to my astonishment,started to assemble a metal detector.Needless to say,I explained to him what the law is in relation to the use of metal detectors in close proximity to national monuments.He said he was unaware of such laws!This is a person I've had to warn before(I approached him last year while he was also detecting elsewhere on the Curragh,but he didn't recognise me this time).This is a seasoned metal detectorist,he knows what he's doing.I will be contacting the National Monuments Service to report this incident.
    Several months ago,not far from where this incident happened today,I had to warn a couple(who had their kids along for the fun) to cease detecting within metres of another barrow.Despite my warning,they continued to do so.
    Both Raheenanairy barrow and another in close proximity were 'night-hawked' last year,which I reported to the National Monuments Service.

    I'm sure Davy,you find this reprehensible behaviour,and would ask kindly if you could bring this to the attention of the administrators on the Irish Metal Detecting Forum?I know the forum has warnings posted in relation to detecting around National Monuments already,but it would be appreciated if this particular issue could be addressed,particularly where an archaeologically sensitive landscape such as the Curragh is concerned.I ask because the forum is in all likelihood a first port of call for novice detectorists.

    I do indeed genuinely find it reprehensible and the administrator's and members I personally know would agree with me.

    One the problems is that its hard to vet new members online as plenty of people have alternative personas and hidden agenda's.

    There is a similarity for me coming from the angling world. Most serious forums will not allow a lake or river to be named as poachers' /nighthawks' scour the forum's looking for productive places to poach day and night they don't care about the laws either as they literally bring black bags of fish home to sell..anglers have been stabbed and beaten by these scum who have no respect for our soft policing.

    These are the same thugs night hawking with detectors.

    They are so opposite ends of the spectrum to true genuine anglers and detectorists.
    They are not actually true anglers or detectorists

    They are just criminals using whatever tools in their locker (be that nets,fishing rod or a detector) to make some quick cash with no morals
    They just take everything society has and add nothing of their own.

    I hope you got pics of the people you intercepted in Kildare?please take them in future and video them too in the act.I'll mention your report and friendly fair, request definitely.

    One problem that occurs when poachers being talk to court is that the bailiff has to catch them red handed. 3rd parties evidence are mostly forbidden! It's a joke of a system that is geared in the criminals favor.


  • #16
    Bonedigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Bonedigger


    Thanks Davy and fair play!
    No,unfortunately I left my phone behind this morning,so didn't get a chance to take photos.I've already contacted someone in the National Monuments Service to report today's incident - I'm sure they'll be back in due course.


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