Dublin Bus Policy Wheelchair/Pram

Dub13 · 18-10-2007 5:25pm #1

I am aware that the policy up on till fairly recently has been that the wheelchair gets preference,in fact we had a thread on it here recently.A friend of mine is a city councilor and I was talking to him the other day,he was at a meeting at witch two fairly high up members of Dublin bus management were also present.

Anyway this issue was raised and according to the two management lads from DB their policy has changed on advice given to them by the Dublin Bus Equality Officer.

The standard procedure to be followed from now on is that if the pram is in the spot first the driver has to ask them to fold the buggy as a wheelchair user wants to board the bus.If the person refuses to fold the pram the wheelchair user will have to wait on till the next bus.The advice giving by the Equality Officer was that you can not discriminate against someone on the grounds that they have a pram/child.

Has anybody else heard of this policy change...?And what are your views on it...?

SickCert · 18-10-2007 5:31pm

Ive heard nothing at Depot level.

Ham'nd'egger · 18-10-2007 6:13pm

Surely, given that a pram can be folded up and a baby held that they should be asked to move for a wheelchair?

If this is so, D 13, then it's the biggest load of PC bunkum ever! It discriminates against those who the service and equipment is there especially to service.

meanmachine3 · 18-10-2007 6:26pm

unfortunately it's true. i've been involved in that type of incident. a buggy was on the bus and a wheelchair wanted to get on. i asked the person to fold the buggy and they refused. after a few mins of arguing another bus with same number came along while i was at the stop and the wheeelchair got that one. the following day i asked one of the managers the procedure and they said who ever is there first has priority.i dont agree with it all but it's true.

godtabh · 18-10-2007 7:29pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

i asked the person to fold the buggy and they refused

I could understand if you had a buggy and baby on your won. I wouldnt imagine it would be easy to fold a bug and hold a baby at the same time and if it was my baby I wouldnt let a stranger hold it.

Suppose its not an easy situation

aliveandkicking · 18-10-2007 7:50pm

kearnsr wrote: »

I could understand if you had a buggy and baby on your won. I wouldnt imagine it would be easy to fold a bug and hold a baby at the same time and if it was my baby I wouldnt let a stranger hold it.

Suppose its not an easy situation

Well what did all the parents with buggies do for the 80 or so years before wheelchair accessible buses came along?

It is an easy situation. No way in the world should a buggy get preference over a wheelchair no matter who is there first.

The buses were designed so that disabled people could use public transport. They're called "wheelchair accessable buses" not "buggy accessable buses."

Buggies should only get to use the wheelchair space for handyness sake not as a guaranteed priviledge.

godtabh · 18-10-2007 8:54pm

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Well what did all the parents with buggies do for the 80 or so years before wheelchair accessible buses came along?

It is an easy situation. No way in the world should a buggy get preference over a wheelchair no matter who is there first.

The buses were designed so that disabled people could use public transport. They're called "wheelchair accessable buses" not "buggy accessable buses."

Buggies should only get to use the wheelchair space for handyness sake not as a guaranteed priviledge.

I wouldnt know how easy it would be to fold a bug in one had and have a baby in another. Would you?

I dont think its as black and white as you see it

aliveandkicking · 18-10-2007 9:10pm

kearnsr wrote: »

I wouldnt know how easy it would be to fold a bug in one had and have a baby in another. Would you?

I dont think its as black and white as you see it

As I already said, they will have to do whatever it is they did for the 80 or so years we had buses that you couldn't wheel a buggy on and leave it unfolded.

godtabh · 18-10-2007 9:12pm

aliveandkicking wrote: »

As I already said, they will have to do whatever it is they did for the 80 or so years we had buses that you couldn't wheel a buggy on and leave it unfolded.

But have you ever done it yourself?

Wishbone Ash · 18-10-2007 9:25pm

It's reasonably easy. Pull up the little lever with one's foot and the buggy collapses.

godtabh · 18-10-2007 9:30pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It's reasonably easy. Pull up the little lever with one's foot and the buggy collapses.

Are you a parent? Seriously I've no idea how easy/hard it is but factory in a baby and I can see it been tough

aliveandkicking · 18-10-2007 9:38pm

kearnsr wrote: »

But have you ever done it yourself?

Baby in one hand, fold buggy with the other? No I haven't because the baby can be put into the seat the parent has just vacated in order to fold down the buggy so that situation would never arise.

I have seen many many times situations where a parent (usually the mother) have had to fold down a pram/buggy either before boarding or a few times I've seen during the journey if the bus is getting full they voluntarily fold the buggy to make more room. Never have I seen a mother having to hold a baby in one hand and fold a buggy with the other. The child is usually put into a seat while this happens or if they're old enough to stand up for 20 seconds they do. Kearnsr your hypothetical situation just doesn't arise in reality.

My original point which still stands is, up to 5 or 6 years ago parents had no choice but to fold a buggy/pram and the world coped just fine. There was never an issue with it. Now we have wheelchair accessable buses (yes wheelchair) which are great for parents who can just wheel their prams on - great very handy no hassle BUT in no way shape or form should someone with a pram prevent a disabled person in a wheelchair from gaining access to a bus which was specifically designed for wheelchairs. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Wishbone Ash · 18-10-2007 9:51pm

kearnsr wrote: »

Are you a parent?

Yup.

A very small child/baby is easy to hold momentarily in one hand as they are light.

An older child can stand/sit on their own momentarily while the buggy is folded.

I would have always folded the buggy before boarding a bus anyway.;)

meanmachine3 · 18-10-2007 10:24pm

i'll ask this then,whats the difference between folding a buggy on a bus if a wheelchair wants to get on and folding a buggy when the space is already occupied, theres no difference, in both cases strangers may offer their help.
my next point.
is the defination of "disabled" taken from collin english dictionary
"lacking a physical power,such as the ability to walk."
a baby would be in this catagory.
as i said already i dont agree with first come first served but theres nothing that can be done.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-10-2007 10:57pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

is the defination of "disabled" taken from collin english dictionary
"lacking a physical power,such as the ability to walk."
a baby would be in this catagory.

Comparing the two is quite ridiculous, unless Dublin Bus is accommodating unaccompanied babies now...

Hagar · 18-10-2007 10:59pm

Is there no human decency left?

Dub13 · 18-10-2007 11:12pm

Hagar wrote: »

Is there no human decency left?

No...looks like the world has go PC mad you can not 'offend' anybody these days.

Victor · 18-10-2007 11:16pm

The problem is being partly resolved with the new EV(?) buses. The fixed panel behind the wheelchair space is being left out, making it a bit more practical to fit one of each, although you wouldn't get two wheelchairs in.

penexpers · 18-10-2007 11:53pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

is the defination of "disabled" taken from collin english dictionary
"lacking a physical power,such as the ability to walk."

A baby doesn't lack the ability to walk.

AlekSmart · 19-10-2007 12:05am

There is NO alteration to the situation of ONE Wheelchair or ONE Occupied Buggy....One OR the other,all other buggies MUST be folded and stowed.

The alteration in Company Policy appears to have been driven by a recent piece on the Joe Duffy Liveline programme concerning an incident on a Clontarf based Route.

Essentially a woman already on board with a large buggy was requested by the Driver to fold and stow upon the arrival of a Wheelchair bound customer.

She refused and a scene ensued in which her view was that she was forced to leave the bus.
This scenario appears to have spurred a flurry of investigation by BAC management,perhaps assisted by the Interest of a Legal Practitioner.

The essence of the problem is the usual Irish approach of failing to fully comprehend and impliment ANY sort of coherent policy.

Right from Day 1 when the 1st Wheelchair Accessible Bus rolled through Dublin the situation needed to be copperfastened and the Rules made Abundantly Clear with NO grey areas.

As a Busdriver I need to be absolutely clear what my LEGAL entitlement is in relation to prioritizing access for an intending Disabled Passenger.
There was always going to be a situation when the general public would refuse to play ball with the co-operation thing and would revert to asserting THEIR rights etc etc.
The company has been quite happy to stick with nondescript wishy washy terms and even just mild hints which were always going to be faced down at some point.

If the disability access leglislation required to be assimilated into the BAC bye laws then it should have been done at that stage.
If the actual Road Traffic PSV regulations needed to be changed,it should have been attended to BEFORE putting several hundred accessible buses into service and suckering genuinely DISABLED persons into believeing that a form of legal priority now existed for them.

This was an ENTIRELY foreseeable situation and is the result of sloppy disinterested Disability Prioritization by persons who would never have to be out on the platform attempting to implement it.

There are many BAC drivers who have been placed in impossible situations by intractible buggy pushers and equally intractible wheelchair users.
Very few persons appear to retain any sense of morality or decorum when a bus comes along and the law of the jungle generally applies.

One thing IS certain and that is we shall be hearing more on Liveline about this and equally certain is the fact that the Busdriver will be in the Wrong.

:mad:

ucdperson · 19-10-2007 12:52am

wouldnt know how easy it would be to fold a bug in one had and have a baby in another. Would you?

No, while you mightn't want someone else to hold the baby, someone else could fold the buggy!!

I think the wheelchair should have absolute priority here. By all means designate a parent and baby seat.

meanmachine3 · 19-10-2007 1:21am

where bus drivers are concerned ,your damned if you do and damned if you dont. 99% if not all of bus drivers would agree here on one thing and that is wheelchairs are supposed to have priority but unfortunately it aint the case. i'm sure countless drivers over the years have called for the guards because some ignorant git refused to fold their buggy that had a child in it.
without getting into a war of words here, the person asked to fold their buggy was not of this country, another row broke out because as far as they were concerned i was a racist.
the other problem about buggys is the f...king size of them. you would'nt be able to get alot of them into a car folded

markpb · 19-10-2007 9:49am

AlekSmart wrote: »

She refused and a scene ensued in which her view was that she was forced to leave the bus.

Seems fair enough to me - the driver made a reasonable request which was disobeyed by the passenger so she was forced to leave the bus, there's nothing wrong with that. Anyone who can't see the problem with a wheelchair user being denied access to a bus because a selfish parent won't fold their buggy lacks basic human decency.

godtabh · 19-10-2007 11:26am

markpb wrote: »

Seems fair enough to me - the driver made a reasonable request which was disobeyed by the passenger so she was forced to leave the bus, there's nothing wrong with that.

But she was a fare paying customer and i assume she thought she was entitled to have her buggy on the bus.

The bus driver couldnt forced to do anything. He can ask her but if she doesnt want to it I dont think there is anything he can do about it. OR is there? What rule did she break? Its all directives rather than rules isnt it?

I thought all the newer buses (last 4-5 years) could accommodate both buggy and wheel chair at the same time?

Ste.phen · 19-10-2007 11:38am

I think most of the (non tri axle) buses only have one spot for wheelchair/buggy, and for safety reasons it's one or the other?

meanmachine3 · 19-10-2007 11:44am

kearnsr wrote: »

But she was a fare paying customer and i assume she thought she was entitled to have her buggy on the bus.

The bus driver couldnt forced to do anything. He can ask her but if she doesnt want to it I dont think there is anything he can do about it. OR is there? What rule did she break? Its all directives rather than rules isnt it?

your abosolutely right here kearnsr. if a perosn refuses to fold their buggy there is not a single thing the driver can do because as you've stated they've paid their fare so as far as their concerned they've as much right to have their buggy on the bus as a wheelchair user does.

kearnsr wrote: »

I thought all the newer buses (last 4-5 years) could accommodate both buggy and wheel chair at the same time?

the golden rule is either one or the other. it states this at the atuofare box when entering a bus. this is the only definate thing a driver can insist on, now some drivers will allow 2 at his discreition.i've done it a few times if someone is going a few stops.

godtabh · 19-10-2007 11:47am

meanmachine3 wrote: »

kearnsr wrote: »

But she was a fare paying customer and i assume she thought she was entitled to have her buggy on the bus.

The bus driver couldnt forced to do anything. He can ask her but if she doesnt want to it I dont think there is anything he can do about it. OR is there? What rule did she break? Its all directives rather than rules isnt it?

your abosolutely right here kearnsr. if a perosn refuses to fold their buggy there is not a single thing the driver can do because as you've stated they've paid their fare so as far as their concerned they've as much right to have their buggy on the bus as a wheelchair user does.

kearnsr wrote: »

I thought all the newer buses (last 4-5 years) could accommodate both buggy and wheel chair at the same time?

the golden rule is either one or the other. it states this at the atuofare box when entering a bus. this is the only definate thing a driver can insist on, now some drivers will allow 2 at his discreition.i've done it a few times if someone is going a few stops.

I've often seen 2 buggys in there and when I used to get the 11 bus there was a regular wheelchaire user who used to share with a buggy the odd time

markpb · 19-10-2007 12:10pm

kearnsr wrote: »

But she was a fare paying customer and i assume she thought she was entitled to have her buggy on the bus.

Within the bounds of reason, yes. I'm allowed to bring my bags of shopping on the bus, but I would assume I'm not allowed to put them on the seat if it stops someone else getting on the bus? People with buggies have the option (if not the consideration) to fold their buggies so people in wheelchairs (who don't have the option of folding them up) can get on.

Red Alert · 19-10-2007 1:19pm

Is the priority issue written into the bus bye laws? If not then it should be. Simple solution - uncooperative buggy owner: driver can remove them from the bus for breaking the bye laws.

godtabh · 19-10-2007 2:09pm

markpb wrote: »

Within the bounds of reason, yes. I'm allowed to bring my bags of shopping on the bus, but I would assume I'm not allowed to put them on the seat if it stops someone else getting on the bus? People with buggies have the option (if not the consideration) to fold their buggies so people in wheelchairs (who don't have the option of folding them up) can get on.

Putting bags on seats and a baby in a buggy are two different things as dar as I'm concerned.

I get you rpoint that parents do have the opertunity that they can fold the buggy and sit with the child but what happens on a full bus? I think that if they are fare paying they are entitled to take up the space. If they have the cop on to give up the space for a wheelchair user than fair play. If they dont I think your on a lose lose situation. Throw off a young mother of a bus you get it int he ear. Dont allow a wheelchaire user get it in the ear.

markpb · 19-10-2007 2:17pm

kearnsr wrote: »

I get your point that parents do have the opertunity that they can fold the buggy and sit with the child but what happens on a full bus? I think that if they are fare paying they are entitled to take up the space.

In that case, all buggies should be folded before getting on the bus. If there is space for two more (parent + child), they'll be allowed on, otherwise they can wait for the next bus like anyone else. In this case, they're not blocking the wheelchair area and everyone is happy.

If they have the cop on to give up the space for a wheelchair user than fair play. If they dont I think your on a lose lose situation. Throw off a young mother of a bus you get it int he ear. Dont allow a wheelchaire user get it in the ear.

I confused the issue slightly. I condon throwing the woman off the bus for failing to follow the reasonable instructions of the driver. I frequently see drivers refusing to drive until passengers follow their instructions, this should be no different.

At the end of the day, all this boils down to common sense and politeness. If you have a buggy, try not to travel when the buses are busy and if you do, try to fold the buggy and either have the baby sit on your knee or sit beside you. Is that so hard?

godtabh · 19-10-2007 2:44pm

As I said what happens if a bus is full a couple of stages after the bug gets on and few stages later a wheelchair user gets on?

Its not a s black and white as it seems

loyatemu · 19-10-2007 2:44pm

20 years ago anyone getting on a bus with a buggy would've had a lightweight stroller - the only other alternative then was a pram which obviously would not have fitted. these days, babies are more likely to be in a larger 3 wheeled buggy, which may not fold up very compactly, or a child seat on a buggy frame which may not fold at all.

its all very well saying "sit the child on a seat while you fild the buggy" but any child under the age of 18 months is not going to be able to sit steadily on a moving bus. I agree that wheelchair users should get priority but at the same time i can see why someone already on the bus with a buggy might have difficulty folding it up. The policy should be made explicit and buggy users made aware that they may have to "fold or get off"

meanmachine3 · 19-10-2007 2:51pm

there is another point thats missing here and it's SAFETY.
the route i'm on is known as buggy land.i personally as a driver and speaking only for myself will on an average day allow.
1 open buggy and about
2-3 closed buggies.
my reason is this. when the folded buggies are closed they are stacked up on the luggage compartment . any more buggies stacked up and the whole lot tends to fall over when turning corners/bends/roundabout etc.
alot of drivers will refuse to move their bus until the buggy is folded. once bitten twice shy. i've been caught out where you ask someone to fold their buggy and your driving up the road only to see the buggy open and the passenger sitting down.
we do not ask passengers to fold their buggies for the fun of it or to be awkward.
safety is a drivers number 1 priority.

Dublin Bus Policy Wheelchair/Pram

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