Ireland blocks EU citizens personal data sharing plan with Israel.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

People must now realise that Israel is a rogue state that is willing to try anything including committing murder and then have the audacity to try and cover it up using false international passports.

Good on Dermot Ahern.

Well let's just hope that he's consistent and views the recent fraudulent use of Irish passports by the Russians with the same concern as when the Israelis were deemed to have done so. If we're to be even handed, I'd expect the expulsion of a Russian diplomat at the very least, but I wouldn't hold my breath, as there seems to be a double standard applied to Israel, and nowhere more so than in this country.

Einhard wrote: »

but I wouldn't hold my breath, as there seems to be a double standard applied to Israel, and nowhere more so than in this country.

Oh, I most certainly agree there is a double standard, in favor of Israel. After all, last time I checked Iran is under quite a few UN sanctions due to there Nuclear program, and in the case of Israel there are no sanctions at all for there Nuclear arsenal, and not to mention the fact they are also violating a number of UN resolutions, and again no UN sanctions. They violate any number of agreements and they get away with, and the Palestinians are put under siege backed by many Western countries, who only very recently started speaking out against it.

I find it laughable that anyone would suggest that there is a negative double standard against Israel, when the US protects them from any sanction and they receive billions in aid each year, and that they have favorable trade status with the EU, membership of OECD etc.

What Israel did with Irish, UK and other countries passports, was show that they are not really trust worthy with our data. In fact I think it time we review other aspects of the EU relationship with Israel, as the last time I checked friendly countries don't steal passports to murder people.

Also, I do agree we should expel a Russian diplomat.

According to a spokesman for Irish Justice Minister Dermot Ahern, the Irish government had the “gravest concern” that information supplied to Israeli officials could be used to forge passports for use by intelligence agencies".

just making up for their own mistakes then, arent they.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055918503

Great stuff. Martin has bided his time and played this one well.

wes wrote: »

Oh, I most certainly agree there is a double standard, in favor of Israel. After all, last time I checked Iran is under quite a few UN sanctions due to there Nuclear program, and in the case of Israel there are no sanctions at all for there Nuclear arsenal, and not to mention the fact they are also violating a number of UN resolutions, and again no UN sanctions. They violate any number of agreements and they get away with, and the Palestinians are put under siege backed by many Western countries, who only very recently started speaking out against it.

I find it laughable that anyone would suggest that there is a negative double standard against Israel, when the US protects them from any sanction and they receive billions in aid each year, and that they have favorable trade status with the EU, membership of OECD etc.

What Israel did with Irish, UK and other countries passports, was show that they are not really trust worthy with our data. In fact I think it time we review other aspects of the EU relationship with Israel, as the last time I checked friendly countries don't steal passports to murder people.

Also, I do agree we should expel a Russian diplomat.

By any objective measurement wes, the actions of the state of Israel are held to a different standard than practically any other sovereign state. It's not laughable at all to call for some consistency in our foreign policy, or in the general reaction to international events. The passport issue is a case in point. When Israel forged Irish documents there was uproar in this country. There were countless articles, news pieces and editorials commenting on the matter, and even calls to break off diplomatic relations with Israel. Needless to say, boards erupted in a frenzy, and Israel was depicted as not merely duplicitous, but almost as a hostile entity. And yet, a few weeks later, we find out that Russia has been fraudulently using Irish passports and there's not a peep of protest! It's as if it's all one big game. There's been plenty of comment alright, with articles devoted to the fact that the Russian spy is pretty hot, and how Cold War-chic the whole affair is. But strangely enough, very little on the misuse of Irish passports. No calls for the expulsion of any Russian diplomats, let alone the suspension of diplomatic relations. I don't know about you wes, but that smaks of double standards to me.

Not that it comes as a surprise mind. Israel (and the US) has long been subject to condemnation for actions which pass without reprimand when committed by other states. To reference Russia yet again- The Russian Federation waged a war of almost unprecedented brutality in Chechnya at the end of the 90s and into the last decade. Tens of thousands were killed indisciminately, Grozny was levelled, civilians deliberately targeted by Russian forces in reprisal killings, torture, rape, enslavement all rampant. And yet, there was barely a murmur of protest in the international media. Every "activist" in the world knows of Hebron or Gaza, yet mention Grozny to them, and they stare back blankly. Even today, Russia is involved in appalling human rights abuses in Ingushetia and the other Caucusus republics. And nothing is heard of it. Nothing is reported. Robert Fisk writes no articles brimming with outrage and indignation.

Then we have China. A few years back, the Chinese premier (or president, I can't remember Hu- groan!) made a state visit to Ireland. He's the leader of a nation whose domestic policy revolves around supressing individual rights, and crushing not only dissent, but independent thought. Torture is routine, and citizens locked away for speaking their mind. Tibet has been occupied by this state for the past 50 years, and brutally so. Beijing is entirely open about its policy of diluting and destroying indigenous Tibetan culture, has banned centuries old traditions and practises, and has flooded the region with Han Chinese, in a blatant example of cultural genocide. This occurs not only in Tibet, but also the Uighur provinces, where any form of dissent is brutally and swiftly crushed. And yet, there is barely a squeak of outrage. I remember watching the news coverage of the premier's visit, and there were three Falun Gong protestors. All bore the scars of their torture at the hands of the Chinese regime. All testified to the brutality they had endured. But there was no Irish protestor in sight. And criticism was so muted as to be non-existent. And yet, some time later, when George Bush arrived, the army had to be deployed around Dromoland to deal with the tens of thousands who protested his visit. I can't even imagine the scenes had Ariel Sharon popped over, or if Netanyahu flew in for a state visit. Again, I find it hard to believe that any reasonable person could fail to see the inconsistency here.

Only recently, the Iranian foreign minister paid a visit to Dublin. Again, the majority of the smattering of protestors were Iranians who hand first had experience of that murderous regime. This is a government which advocates the stoning of female adulturers, which massacres its own citizens on the streets, which rapes, tortures and murders political prisoners, and is widely acknowledged to fund terorist groups the world over. And yet, I read no editorials condemning the visit, no articles excoriating the Tehran administration, no threads on boards detailing the crimes and abuses routinely inflicted on Iranian dissenters. Indeed, the only reason the visit garnered any attention was because some of the protestors were beaten by the FM's bodygaurds! Imagine the outcry were the goons of an Israeli minister to beat Irish citizens and residents in public!! We'd have been demanding an EU invasion force! And yet, quelle surprise, barely an eyebrow is raised when it's Iranian thugs dealing out the blows.

I could go on wes. I could go on and on and on and on detailing the instances where Israel has been lambasted for actions which pale in comparison to abuses carried out by other nations, and for which the other nations recieve little or no censure. The inconsistency, hypocrisy even, is blatant. It's the reason why some on the pro-Israel side wrongly view criticism as stemming from anti-semitism. They can't understand how it could be anything else when representatives of truly murderous regimes are welcomed around the world with barely a murmur of protest, while Israeli dignitaries are threatened with arrest and trial. They watch as global opinion is silent on Chechnya, Timor, Tibet etc, and yet rounds on Israel for relatively minor infractions. I don't believe it's anti-semitic myself, but I can't help but be astounded at the hypocrisy. Can you explain the double standard? Or, as I suspect, will you ignore all the evidence and persist in your belief that there is none?

In relation to your assertions regarding Iran and the sanctions imposed because of her nuclear programme, it might help your case if you actually informed yourself before expressing an opinion. Iran is a signatory to the Nuclear Non- Proliferation Treaty. It maintains that it is abiding by the treaty, even in the face of independent evidence that it is actively pursuing nuclear weapons. Israel, on the other hand, is not a signatory. Neither are India or Pakistan, which coincidentally developed their own nuclear arsenal without incurring sanctions. Furthermore, it's quite noteworthy that the sanctions imposed on Iran have the full, if not explicit, support of most of the other regimes in the Middle East who rightly fear the destabalising effect that a nuclear armed, terrorist funding theocracy will have on the region.

I'd also add that Israel, unlike Iran, does not call for the destruction of other nations, and does not sponsor organisations whose stated goal is the destruction of other nations. The following is from the Hamas charter:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Iran is quite open in its funding and enabling of Hamas. Iran wants nuclear weapons. Frankly, I'd be surprised if Israel and her main ally, the US, didn't react negatively to the prospect of an Iranian bomb.

Finally, the fact that the the US shields Israel, her main ally in the region, from UN sanctions does not in any way imply a general double standard. It might indicate an inconsistency on the part of Washington legislators, but it certainly does not negate from the fact that, as outlined above, Israel is routinely condemned for even the most insignificant actions (eg. the video of IDF soldiers dancing posted the other day), while the most brutal regimes are practically given a free pass.




PS: Before I'm misrepresented, the above is not intended as a defence of Israel or her policies.

By any objective measurement wes, the actions of the state of Israel are held to a different standard than practically any other sovereign state.

Israel is held to the standards it claims to warrant - that of a democratic Western country. When was the last time Finland or France sent out death squads using our passports?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Einhard wrote: »

By any objective measurement wes, the actions of the state of Israel are held to a different standard than practically any other sovereign state. It's not laughable at all to call for some consistency in our foreign policy, or in the general reaction to international events. The passport issue is a case in point. When Israel forged Irish documents there was uproar in this country. There were countless articles, news pieces and editorials commenting on the matter, and even calls to break off diplomatic relations with Israel. Needless to say, boards erupted in a frenzy, and Israel was depicted as not merely duplicitous, but almost as a hostile entity. And yet, a few weeks later, we find out that Russia has been fraudulently using Irish passports and there's not a peep of protest! It's as if it's all one big game. There's been plenty of comment alright, with articles devoted to the fact that the Russian spy is pretty hot, and how Cold War-chic the whole affair is. But strangely enough, very little on the misuse of Irish passports. No calls for the expulsion of any Russian diplomats, let alone the suspension of diplomatic relations. I don't know about you wes, but that smaks of double standards to me.

Not that it comes as a surprise mind. Israel (and the US) has long been subject to condemnation for actions which pass without reprimand when committed by other states. To reference Russia yet again- The Russian Federation waged a war of almost unprecedented brutality in Chechnya at the end of the 90s and into the last decade. Tens of thousands were killed indisciminately, Grozny was levelled, civilians deliberately targeted by Russian forces in reprisal killings, torture, rape, enslavement all rampant. And yet, there was barely a murmur of protest in the international media. Every "activist" in the world knows of Hebron or Gaza, yet mention Grozny to them, and they stare back blankly. Even today, Russia is involved in appalling human rights abuses in Ingushetia and the other Caucusus republics. And nothing is heard of it. Nothing is reported. Robert Fisk writes no articles brimming with outrage and indignation.

Then we have China. A few years back, the Chinese premier (or president, I can't remember Hu- groan!) made a state visit to Ireland. He's the leader of a nation whose domestic policy revolves around supressing individual rights, and crushing not only dissent, but independent thought. Torture is routine, and citizens locked away for speaking their mind. Tibet has been occupied by this state for the past 50 years, and brutally so. Beijing is entirely open about its policy of diluting and destroying indigenous Tibetan culture, has banned centuries old traditions and practises, and has flooded the region with Han Chinese, in a blatant example of cultural genocide. This occurs not only in Tibet, but also the Uighur provinces, where any form of dissent is brutally and swiftly crushed. And yet, there is barely a squeak of outrage. I remember watching the news coverage of the premier's visit, and there were three Falun Gong protestors. All bore the scars of their torture at the hands of the Chinese regime. All testified to the brutality they had endured. But there was no Irish protestor in sight. And criticism was so muted as to be non-existent. And yet, some time later, when George Bush arrived, the army had to be deployed around Dromoland to deal with the tens of thousands who protested his visit. I can't even imagine the scenes had Ariel Sharon popped over, or if Netanyahu flew in for a state visit. Again, I find it hard to believe that any reasonable person could fail to see the inconsistency here.

Only recently, the Iranian foreign minister paid a visit to Dublin. Again, the majority of the smattering of protestors were Iranians who hand first had experience of that murderous regime. This is a government which advocates the stoning of female adulturers, which massacres its own citizens on the streets, which rapes, tortures and murders political prisoners, and is widely acknowledged to fund terorist groups the world over. And yet, I read no editorials condemning the visit, no articles excoriating the Tehran administration, no threads on boards detailing the crimes and abuses routinely inflicted on Iranian dissenters. Indeed, the only reason the visit garnered any attention was because some of the protestors were beaten by the FM's bodygaurds! Imagine the outcry were the goons of an Israeli minister to beat Irish citizens and residents in public!! We'd have been demanding an EU invasion force! And yet, quelle surprise, barely an eyebrow is raised when it's Iranian thugs dealing out the blows.

I could go on wes. I could go on and on and on and on detailing the instances where Israel has been lambasted for actions which pale in comparison to abuses carried out by other nations, and for which the other nations recieve little or no censure. The inconsistency, hypocrisy even, is blatant. It's the reason why some on the pro-Israel side wrongly view criticism as stemming from anti-semitism. They can't understand how it could be anything else when representatives of truly murderous regimes are welcomed around the world with barely a murmur of protest, while Israeli dignitaries are threatened with arrest and trial. They watch as global opinion is silent on Chechnya, Timor, Tibet etc, and yet rounds on Israel for relatively minor infractions. I don't believe it's anti-semitic myself, but I can't help but be astounded at the hypocrisy. Can you explain the double standard? Or, as I suspect, will you ignore all the evidence and persist in your belief that there is none?

In relation to your assertions regarding Iran and the sanctions imposed because of her nuclear programme, it might help your case if you actually informed yourself before expressing an opinion. Iran is a signatory to the Nuclear Non- Proliferation Treaty. It maintains that it is abiding by the treaty, even in the face of independent evidence that it is actively pursuing nuclear weapons. Israel, on the other hand, is not a signatory. Neither are India or Pakistan, which coincidentally developed their own nuclear arsenal without incurring sanctions. Furthermore, it's quite noteworthy that the sanctions imposed on Iran have the full, if not explicit, support of most of the other regimes in the Middle East who rightly fear the destabalising effect that a nuclear armed, terrorist funding theocracy will have on the region.

I'd also add that Israel, unlike Iran, does not call for the destruction of other nations, and does not sponsor organisations whose stated goal is the destruction of other nations. The following is from the Hamas charter:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Iran is quite open in its funding and enabling of Hamas. Iran wants nuclear weapons. Frankly, I'd be surprised if Israel and her main ally, the US, didn't react negatively to the prospect of an Iranian bomb.

Finally, the fact that the the US shields Israel, her main ally in the region, from UN sanctions does not in any way imply a general double standard. It might indicate an inconsistency on the part of Washington legislators, but it certainly does not negate from the fact that, as outlined above, Israel is routinely condemned for even the most insignificant actions (eg. the video of IDF soldiers dancing posted the other day), while the most brutal regimes are practically given a free pass.




PS: Before I'm misrepresented, the above is not intended as a defence of Israel or her policies.

I don’t believe that what you have said is intended as a defence of Israel or her policies.

I don’t have a knowledge of world politics that you appear to have but it goes without saying that there are terrible things happening all over the world and even if I tried I probably couldn’t find out about them all. Whether its by choice or whatever reason there are people like Robert Fisk who put themselves in the way of danger including photographers, cameramen, aid workers etc. Sure they are not in every place that these terrible things happen but without such people we would know even less about them. It probably doesn’t help that US media is monopolised.

I certainly believe with regard to passport/information abuse it should be treated equally and their should be a policy to deal with all such abuses.
Israel has such a huge media machine that constantly ignores and refutes reports of human rights abuses and it is hard for me to believe that they ever truly want peace with its apparent eye for a eye policy – even the movie Munich was on last night and seems very similar when compared to the recent events surrounding the passports.
I don’t think it is hard to understand that Irish people may relate more to the Palestinians than Israelis considering our history. I absolutely condemn the actions of Hamas but I can understand how they may not see any other option. Essentially they are surrounded and oppressed and are reacting to what they probably view as their ethnic cleansing. Likewise I also condemn the brutal force the IDF regularly use on all Palestinians, not just Hamas. But I also understand that they may live in fear of Hamas attacks. I suppose similar to the British forces when they were in NI in the past.
I just think that it is disproportional on the part of Israel’s actions and probably only adds fuel to the cause of Hamas. In spite of everything that has gone on over the years on both sides I would say they are both as committed as ever.

It is fair to say that some of Israel’s recent actions are contentious and they certainly do hide behind their big brother. Hamas is Hamas – we all know what they want when they state it but they are certainly not making statements that they don’t intend to follow up on.
Israel claims to be a democratic western society but seems to act differently when it suits them. It is hard for me to believe that Israel really want peace, as they regularly claim, with the eye for an eye thing and when they readily dismiss unbiased reports on human rights abuse by their troops. I have seen people totally forget about some horrible things that Hamas has done when Israel retaliates with very deadly force and then refutes any of the reports I mentioned above.

Re: the dance video – I stated that I could be wrong but I though it was a 2 fingers. We will never know. But I do know that other people think I had an ulterior motive, which isn’t true. Maybe I did jump to an incorrect conclusion but I’ll happily admit to that. Anyway I gauged others opinions and unfortunately it went around in circles – I suppose I should have known better.

I’m not trying to get into a big debate and take the topic off in a different direction but with regard to the OP – Israel does deserve criticism. I just wanted to address why I believe you see people in Ireland as having negativity towards Israel.

Certainly I could be wrong on many counts but I think if you were to start threads on actions by the other states you mentioned I’m sure those states would get widespread condemnation here also.

Palmach wrote: »

The comments must be seen in the context of the behaviour of Ahmedinijad. He has hosted a Holocaust denial conference. His government arms and trains Hizbollah and Hamas. Iranian TV regularly airs anti-Semitic material including children's programmes hwere Jews are portrayed as pigs and monkeys. Also please read the entire speech from which the piece is lifted there is plenty more about he aspires to see Israel wiped off the map. Only the gullible or the willfully blind would see the utterings of Ahemdinijad as anything other than vicious threats against Israel.

For many years the Irish State and people aspired to see Northern Ireland wiped off the map - does that mean we were making "vicious threats" against the people of Northern Ireland?

You're free to see what you want to see in Ahemdinijad's comments, but the assumption that people who disagree on those comments are "gullible or willfully blind" is insulting to your fellow posters and is not a good footing for you to start the debate on.

regards,
Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

Ahmadinejad never sought to wipe the Israeli inhabitants off the map either. What's your point?
Fault is often determined from a subjective view-point, and isn't worth discussing.
Actions speak louder than words. Israel wishes to continue it's illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, and normalise it under Israeli rule. That in itself is destruction of the Palestinian state.
I suppose that's why 120,000 people marched recently in Israel to object to integration in schools?

We are veering off topic. Find a thread on the above topics and we can discuss.

People are talking about the Hamas Charter, what about the Likud charter ?
This is not a party who is interested in any shape or form in a 2 state solution even though they have repeatedly lied to the media, the US and anyone else that cares to listen that they DO want an independent Palestinaian state.

What country on earth would trust people like these with their citizen's information ?

Some quotes:
“Settlements. The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting . . . .

The government will insist that security areas essential to Israel's defense, including the western security area and the Jewish settlements, shall remain under Israeli rule.’

“Self-Rule. The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
“The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.”

“A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration.”

Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz. The presence of the Israeli police in eastern Jerusalem will be increased. This in addition to the new police posts and reinforcements in the neighborhoods. The Likud government will act with vigor to continue Jewish habitation and strengthen Israeli sovereignty in the eastern parts of the city. . . .

The Jordan Valley and the territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli sovereignty. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

slimjimmc wrote: »

What mistakes are you referring to?
or do you mean refusing a foreign state access to our passport process is a mistake.

Egg on my face I had given myself the impression they had in fact gotten a hold of irish passports.

They did use fake passports during the Dubai hit though didnt they

Overheal wrote: »

Egg on my face I had given myself the impression they had in fact gotten a hold of irish passports.

They did use fake passports during the Dubai hit though didnt they

No worrries.
They did indeeed use fake passports, forged from the old design but with real valid passport numbers.