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Knowth, Dowth etc

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  • 13-04-2015 5:03pm
    #1
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭


    Just a quick enquiry,

    Is there any actual evidence that the large kerb-stones at KNowth and Dowth were actually transported by suspending them by ropes under boats?

    Seems a bit iffy to me.


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    #2
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Nobody??


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    #3
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Surely someone can shed some light on this??


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    #4
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Why do you think the theory is '...a bit iffy'?
    Given that some, though not all of the Boyne Valley kerbstones are believed to have come from the shore around Clogher Head*, it seems quite a sensible route - the path of least resistance if you like, especially when a good portion of the Boyne would have allowed further passage inland.
    Another thing to bear in mind is that we know very little about Neolithic open sea transport. A similar maritime theory was popular concerning the transport of the Sarsen stones from the Preseli hills (240km away in Wales) to Stonehenge but current thinking has moved away from this idea towards the possibility that these stones were deposited closer to the monument as erratics during the last glaciation.
    These are not established facts, they are theories, subject to change as new evidence emerges and open to debate.





    *Phillips, W.E.A.; M. Corcoran; E. Eogan (2001),
    Identification of the source area for megaliths used in the construction of the Neolithic passage graves of the Boyne Valley, Co. Meath.
    Unpublished report for the Heritage Council.    ,
    Department of Geology, Trinity College Dublin.


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    #5
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hi,

    It just doesn't " Feel " right, if you know what I mean.

    Considering the size and amount of the Stones, how big would the boats need to be?

    Also, regarding Stonehenge, why are there no partially completed stones?
    Every other megalithic site has them, why not Stonehenge?

    Just a thought.


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    #6
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    slowburner wrote: »
    the possibility that these stones were deposited closer to the monument as erratics during the last glaciation.

    That being the possibility, why then are there no other similar erratics in the area?

    And how about nearby Avebury, and the even nearer West Kennet Long Barrow stones? Surely not ALL built from the total number of handy lying-around erratics.

    I've tramped around the surrounding district and military training areas long enough to have noticed out-of-place geological features, where they might be expected to have been left where the glacier dropped them, but unremarkably, there seem to be none to be seen. The last ice-age, the so-called Devensian, did not reach within a hundred km of Stonehenge.

    Hmmmmmm.

    tac


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    #7
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    cfuserkildare wrote: »
    Is there any actual evidence that the large kerb-stones at KNowth and Dowth were actually transported by suspending them by ropes under boats?

    Seems a bit iffy to me.

    Where did you hear the 'suspended under boats' thing?


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    #8
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hey Arsemageddon,


    That is what the guides up at the monument tell tourists.

    Just never really found it all that believable to be honest.


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    #9
    Cianmcliam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    Geraldine Stout's book on Newgrange and the Boyne Valley mentions the boat theory.
    The last I heard there is a possible site for a lot of the Knowth stones and possibly some of those at Newgrange up-river, coming from the west.


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    #10
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    tac foley wrote: »
    The last ice-age, the so-called Devensian, did not reach within a hundred km of Stonehenge.

    Hmmmmmm.

    tac
    Quite right. Force of habit mentioning the last ice age. Mea culpa.


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    #11
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    slowburner wrote: »
    Quite right. Force of habit mentioning the last ice age. Mea culpa.

    You is forgived.

    tac


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    #12
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Cianmcliam wrote: »
    Geraldine Stout's book on Newgrange and the Boyne Valley mentions the boat theory.
    The last I heard there is a possible site for a lot of the Knowth stones and possibly some of those at Newgrange up-river, coming from the west.

    Had a look at it there now. The stones are Greywacke and were quarried at Clogher Head Co. Louth and weigh about 3 tons each.

    The theory is that the stones were strapped to the underside of the boat and left in the inter-tidal zone of the river when the tide came in the boat would float and then the lads could paddle up the Boyne to Newgrange.

    There are historical records for this method being used in Co. Wexford. The advantage is that stones suspended beneath the boat weigh half of what they would above water.


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    #13
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    I wonder how they found out that little fact?

    Of course, it need not have been a boat, but a raft.

    tac


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This would be an interesting thing to try out as an experiment.


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    #15
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This would be an interesting thing to try out as an experiment.
    Careful now!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343999/Stonehenge-dream-is-sunk-by-the-Millennium-jinx.html

    There was another reconstruction in 2012 - the Holgar, but I'm not up to speed on the final outcome of the project.


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    #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    slowburner wrote: »
    Careful now!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343999/Stonehenge-dream-is-sunk-by-the-Millennium-jinx.html

    Good job mankind didnt have health and safety watchdogs long ago .. We would never have progressed :p

    "Health and safety watchdogs told the organisers they could not wear furs and hides nor pull the sled with bare hands, but had to don protective clothing to avoid chafing injuries."


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    #17
    Cianmcliam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    In fairness it's really unlikely that the bluestones were ever moved long distances by human transport. The giant monoliths around Morbihan, Brittany that were moved over water and land though make the Brú na Boinne stones look pretty handy!


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    #18
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,903 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    And there was me thinking they moved the stones on rolling logs of felled trees.

    Or am I thinking of the Pyramids?

    Of course that was much later than Newgrange!


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    #19
    Maudi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭Maudi


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Had a look at it there now. The stones are Greywacke and were quarried at Clogher Head Co. Louth and weigh about 3 tons each.

    The theory is that the stones were strapped to the underside of the boat and left in the inter-tidal zone of the river when the tide came in the boat would float and then the lads could paddle up the Boyne to Newgrange.

    There are historical records for this method being used in Co. Wexford. The advantage is that stones suspended beneath the boat weigh half of what they would above water.

    really? Half of what they weigh by suspending them in water..are you sure you arent mixing up gravity with displacement?i find it hard to believe that say ton stones weigh half as much under water


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    #20
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Archimedes' Principle states that when a body is wholly or partially immersed in a fluid it experiences an upthrust or apparent loss in weight equal to the weight of the fluid displaced.

    Since rock is indisputably heavier than water, there is an apparent reduction in its weight, but not a removal of ALL its weight. Try moving a big rock in a stream and you'll see what is meant.

    tac


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    #21
    mythicalireland
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭mythicalireland


    I've written about this in Newgrange - Monument to Immortality. Although I have to admit to being a tad sceptical myself until I see the method replicated successfully, I have been told since publishing the book that there are several "dropped" stones on the river bed in a few locations along the Boyne which might appear to substantiate the method in some way.


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