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Reference gotten without my permission

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  • 16-08-2014 6:26am
    #1
    Jryanzie
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭


    Hi, I recently left a job that wasn't on the greatest of terms. So naturally in my next application I left out that employer as a reference (It was only a job for 3 months). Now that I have a new job lined up, I found out that the new employer knows my last one and has gotten some negative feed back. What kind of stand point do I have?, i didn't give this person as a reference, but the reference is being used against me and may mean I don't get the job.


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    #2
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,266 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    None; you can't block them from talking with people.


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    #3
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    There's little can be done now that the damage is done. It's not like they can unhear what was said about you.

    You could sit down with this new employer and explain the situation. That's if you get the chance, you may just be discounted.

    Since it was just 3 months perhaps you could leave this employer off your cv completly?? It would avoid this going forward.

    There's a theory that if they've said something untrue that you can take legal action. But in practice it's near impossible to prove. I've only given negative feedback over the phone about employees.


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    #4
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,722 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    You can complain to (someone who deals with Privacy complaints - I'm having a brain fade about who that person here at the moment) about the fact that you old employer talked about you without your permission. But your complaint will be about the old employer, which won't get you the new job.

    There may be a subtle point of employment law about using fair selection criteria which your potential new employer has broken. But it would be an expensive legal action to take. And it's not going to get you the job: even if they let you start, you'd still be on probation so could be let go for no reason and with no notice in the first 13 weeks.


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    #5
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Jryanzie wrote: »
    Now that I have a new job lined up, I found out that the new employer knows my last one and has gotten some negative feed back.

    People know people... and the fact that you did not put your most recent employer does a reference is also going to draw attention to the situation!


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    #6
    Chattastrophe!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Chattastrophe!


    Well if you were in their position, and you knew someone in the candidate's last employment, wouldn't you do the exact same thing?

    If I were you, I'd probably leave that off your CV altogether in future - it'll only raise questions about why you don't have someone there willing to give you a reference. I don't offer all of my past employers' details as referees, but for any job included on my CV, I'd have someone there that would be happy to provide a reference for me if requested. If I left on bad terms, I'd be inclined to leave them off my CV altogether if possible.


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    #7
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    If the feedback wasn't true - see a solicitor.


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    #8
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Bepolite wrote: »
    If the feedback wasn't true - see a solicitor.

    I think this advice is a waste of money !!
    You're not going to have any evidence what exactly was/wasn't said.. So you'll end up without the job, if its a close knit business community you're blackening your name and you'll have a few €100 bill from the solicitor too..

    Learn and move on from this.

    Fluff your CV a bit to leave this 3 month period out..

    Also learn that while principals are all great and dandy, leaving an employer on very bad terms to the extent that they give a bad reference is just short sighted ! People hate that advice but you've found out that there are repercussions in life.


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    #9
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    _Brian wrote: »
    I think this advice is a waste of money !!
    You're not going to have any evidence what exactly was/wasn't said.. So you'll end up without the job, if its a close knit business community you're blackening your name and you'll have a few €100 bill from the solicitor too..

    Learn and move on from this.

    Fluff your CV a bit to leave this 3 month period out..

    Also learn that while principals are all great and dandy, leaving an employer on very bad terms to the extent that they give a bad reference is just short sighted ! People hate that advice but you've found out that there are repercussions in life.

    It depends!!!

    If the information is given to the OP, who can request it under data protection he has all the evidence he needs. Furthermore these things can be covered by a confidentiality agreement meaning this doesnt happen again.

    What you're suggesting is going to be uncovered by any background check company.


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    #10
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Bepolite, the OP does not seem to be offended by what was said, he/she is unhappy that the new employer had the cheek to ask a previous employer for his/her opinion.

    It only becomes a legal issue if OP can prove tortious interference by old employer being untruthful, he/she does not say if this was the case, only that OP left previous employment on bad terms. If anything was said, both parties admitted to it being said and it was accurate and truthful, then OP would have wasted a whole pile of money on legal fees.

    Is there a data protection issue here?, did previous employer give confidential information? How do you know and do you seriously expect the new employer to admit to receiving this info? Running to a solicitor for this kind of thing is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, it's excessive and unnecessary.

    Moral of the story, always try to leave on good terms and expect any new employer to check with your previous one, that is the norm when jobs are offered by employers who want to check references (which is every job now by the way).


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    #11
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    davo10 wrote: »
    Bepolite, the OP does not seem to be offended by what was said, he/she is unhappy that the new employer had the cheek to ask a previous employer for his/her opinion.

    It only becomes a legal issue if OP can prove tortious interference by old employer being untruthful, he/she does not say if this was the case, only that OP left previous employment on bad terms. If anything was said, both parties admitted to it being said and it was accurate and truthful, then OP would have wasted a whole pile of money on legal fees.

    Is there a data protection issue here?, did previous employer give confidential information? How do you know and do you seriously expect the new employer to admit to receiving this info? Running to a solicitor for this kind of thing is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, it's excessive and unnecessary.

    Moral of the story, always try to leave on good terms and expect any new employer to check with your previous one, that is the norm when jobs are offered by employers who want to check references (which is every job now by the way).

    I disagree and my post was quite explicit and conscise. Having been in a similar situation I found a solicitor invaluable.


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    #12
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Bepolite wrote: »
    I disagree and my post was quite explicit and conscise. Having been in a similar situation I found a solicitor invaluable.

    Did OP specifically instruct the new employer that they were not to contact this previous employer? I think the new employer would be suspicious of this and would not have offered the job.


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    #13
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    davo10 wrote: »
    Did OP specifically instruct the new employer that they were not to contact this previous employer? I think the new employer would be suspicious of this and would not have offered the job.

    It doesnt matter if the reference was untrue which is what I said in the first place.


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    #14
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Bepolite wrote: »
    It doesnt matter if the reference was untrue which is what I said in the first place.

    And under data protection, you can obtain data which is kept on a computer or structured manual filing system, good luck getting data given in a telephone call.

    OP didn't give old employer as a reference so it would be easy for new one to say he/she knows nothing of the issues with previous employer, how could he/she as OP didn't even tell them he/she worked there.


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    #15
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    davo10 wrote: »
    And under data protection, you can obtain data which is kept on a computer or structured manual filing system, good luck getting data given in a telephone call.

    I'm not sure why you're so opposed to the OP making their own decision. As I say my personal experiance was it was worth it as I had a full background check when I started with my current employer and fudging a gap on the CV was simply not an option.

    You also have no idea what was said to the OP, what someone is willing to say was said or what's stored.


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    #16
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Bepolite wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you're so opposed to the OP making their own decision. As I say my personal experiance was it was worth it as I had a full background check when I started with my current employer and fudging a gap on the CV was simply not an option.

    You also have no idea what was said to the OP, what someone is willing to say was said or what's stored.

    Neither do you, but you still think OP should see a solicitor.

    Considering OP didn't even give details of previous employer, cannot prove a bad reference was given, if it was, it was bound to be in verbal form with zero likelihood of notes being kept. But hey, if you think OP should get a solicitor to contact both employers, then fair enough, as OP hasn't started job, he/she will not be surprised to get a PFO from both.

    As Jim2007 and Nody said, people talk, if it's a small industry then the same people often tend to move between company's where the owners know each other.


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    #17
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    davo10 wrote: »
    Neither do you, but you still think OP should see a solicitor.

    I made a qualified statement allow me to explain.

    If statement = False goto solicitor. This also means;
    If statement = True do not go to solicitor.
    davo10 wrote: »
    Considering OP didn't even give details of previous employer, cannot prove a bad reference was given, if it was, it was bound to be in verbal form with zero likelihood of notes being kept.

    Complete conjecture that would in any event be dealt with during the very intial enquiry which with any decent solicitor would be free.

    davo10 wrote: »
    But hey, if you think OP should get a solicitor to contact both employers, then fair enough, as OP hasn't started job, he/she will not be surprised to get a PFO from both.

    You clearly don;t understand how a solicitor would work in this situation. I'm afriad I dont have time to break this down for you now.
    davo10 wrote: »
    As Jim2007 and Nody said, people talk, if it's a small industry then the same people often tend to move between company's where the owners know each other.

    They might very well talk - its less likely to happen with a confidentiallty agreement in place.


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    #18
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Bepolite wrote: »
    I made a qualified statement allow me to explain.

    If statement = False goto solicitor. This also means;
    If statement = True do not go to solicitor

    Read the OP before you post again, OP does not say anything about the old employers statement true or false, he/she is annoyed that new employer spoke to old employer, in fact OP goes as far as to confirm that they parted in bad terms. I've already stated that if a reference is poor but truthfull, there can be no issue as far as references go.

    Whether they spoke is one issue, proving they spoke is another and the burden for the OP is high, the new employer had no info about OPs previous employment, OP has no concrete proof they spoke nor that what was discussed interfered with the new job offer, but if OP does engage a solicitor to contact new employer, he/she has absolutely no chance of getting employment there, why on earth would any employer employ someone who sent them a solicitors letter BEFORE they started.

    You really should look at the bigger picture, leaving a job on bad terms can be detrimental to future employment opportunities and banging out solicitors letters just makes matters worse.

    Confidentiality agreement? Are you kidding, why would either employer agree to that? Currently OP works for neither and there is no incentive for either to sign one retrospectively.


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    #19
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    davo10 wrote: »
    Read the OP before you post again, OP does not say anything about the old employers statement true or false, he/she is annoyed that new employer spoke to old employer, in fact OP goes as far as to confirm that they parted in bad terms. I've already stated that if a reference is poor but truthfull, there can be no issue.

    Thanks for the back seat modding. My position was crystal clear.
    davo10 wrote: »
    Whether they spoke is one issue, proving they spoke is another and the burden for the OP is high, the new employer had no info about OPs previous employment, OP has no concrete proof they spoke nor that what was discussed interfered with the new job offer, but if OP does engage a solicitor to contact new employer, he/she has absolutely no chance of getting employment there, why on earth would any employer employ someone who sent them a solicitors letter BEFORE they started. You really should look at the bigger picture, leaving a job on bad terms can be detrimental to future employment opportunities and banging out solicitors letters just makes matters worse.

    You keep telling me I'm wrong becuase I'm guessing and then go an do the exact same thing.
    davo10 wrote: »
    Confidentiality agreement? Are you kidding, why would either employer agree to that? Currently OP works for neither and there is no incentive for either to sign one retrospectively.

    Oh dear, we're really not getting anywhere are we. I'm sure the OP is gald of your input, please let other people have theirs. I'm not sure why you are so hell bent on this based on 8 words.


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    #20
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Thanks for the back seat modding. My position was crystal clear.



    You keep telling me I'm wrong becuase I'm guessing and then go an do the exact same thing.



    Oh dear, we're really not getting anywhere are we. I'm sure the OP is gald of your input, please let other people have theirs. I'm not sure why you are so hell bent on this based on 8 words.

    We are both guessing, OP is guessing, everyone who posts on boards is guessing, because no one has the full facts, including the OP.

    You have a viewpoint, backed up by a similar experience, but as an employer I also have experience. My experience tells me that most references are checked with a phone call, written notes are not made so OP has zero chance of being successful. What OP will be successful in by sending a solicitors letter, is torpedoing any chance of employment with the new employer and if the industry is small enough, with any other employer. Maybe you think that is a chance worth taking with no proof, well good luck to you.

    You brought up the confidentiality agreement, that's just daft to expect either employer to sign it.

    Maybe OP will be "glad" of my input, maybe yours as well. Boards is a discussion forum where alternative views are discussed, we all may have different experiences and so can offer a different "input", mine is of being a business owner for twenty years, having dealt with all types of employee problems at one time or another, having got and given references, having made and received phone calls for "off the record" chats about perspective/former employees, so I think I know a bit about what goes on.


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    #21
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    davo10 wrote: »
    We are both guessing, OP is guessing, everyone who posts on boards is guessing, because no one has the full facts, including the OP.

    You have a viewpoint, backed up by a similar experience, but as an employer I also have experience. My experience tells me that most references are checked with a phone call, written notes are not made so OP has zero chance of being successful. What OP will be successful in by sending a solicitors letter, is torpedoing any chance of employment with the new employer and if the industry is small enough, with any other employer. Maybe you think that is a chance worth taking with no proof, well good luck to you.

    You brought up the confidentiality agreement, that's just daft to expect either employer to sign it.

    Maybe OP will be "glad" of my input, maybe yours as well. Boards is a discussion forum where alternative views are discussed, we all may have different experiences and so can offer a different "input", mine is of being a business owner for twenty years, having dealt with all types of employee problems at one time or another, having got and given references, having made and received phone calls for "off the record" chats about perspective/former employees, so I think I know a bit about what goes on.

    And mine is as someone who has managed busiinesses, proabably not on the scale you have but these would have branches of corportate businesses. It's also as someone who left on poor terms and more recently someone who has had a fair amount of access to solicitors and barristers. I've no issue with this being a discussion but constantly tell me I'm wrong and you're right isn't helpful to anyone.


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    #22
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    OP before you get dressed up to see s solicitor save yourself some time by throwing €100 on the fire.
    You had s bit of aggro with your last boss it ended badly and now it's come back to bite you on the bum. Whst did you think was going to happen? Learn your lesson. Gloss over this employment on your CV. Move on.


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    #23
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    OP before you get dressed up to see s solicitor save yourself some time by throwing €100 on the fire.
    You had s bit of aggro with your last boss it ended badly and now it's come back to bite you on the bum. Whst did you think was going to happen? Learn your lesson. Gloss over this employment on your CV. Move on.

    Seeing as this seem to be the prevailing attitude - how does the OP avoid it coming up on a background check and being rejected on the basis that they didn't put something on their CV?

    Even if they decide - ah it was only three months - I'd certainly be giving them a quick call to check out what the story was.

    Simply never apply for a job that does a background check?


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    #24
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,722 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Seeing as this seem to be the prevailing attitude - how does the OP avoid it coming up on a background check ...

    Simply never apply for a job that does a background check?

    I would imagine that the OP's next job is not going to be one that does background checks.

    Later on, once the OP has some other referees to give, it's safe enough to add it back to the CV, because one blip won't cost them a job.

    Interestingly, when I applied for a temp job that needed written references from all jobs, they were quite happy with my verbal statement that I had not been working for five months because I'd been travelling. If the OP used this approach, then I'm not sure how exactly a background check could find the job - it's not like they can ask every employer in town "Ahh, did X ever work here?"


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    #25
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    I would imagine that the OP's next job is not going to be one that does background checks.

    Later on, once the OP has some other referees to give, it's safe enough to add it back to the CV, because one blip won't cost them a job.

    Interestingly, when I applied for a temp job that needed written references from all jobs, they were quite happy with my verbal statement that I had not been working for five months because I'd been travelling. If the OP used this approach, then I'm not sure how exactly a background check could find the job - it's not like they can ask every employer in town "Ahh, did X ever work here?"

    I'm not sure either but I know Experian checked me out in my last job. In the UK I suspect with would be very easy to find this information out, probably through the credit referencing system (hence Experian being a company involved in this) - here I'm not sure how they're doing it.

    While I don't suspect they will be calling every employer - the one employer left off the CV might raise a red flag and engender more digging.

    I do however reiterate for the umteenth time I was only ever suggesting speaking to a solicitor where the statement was false. That last sentence not being directed at you Mrs O'B.


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    #26
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,722 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    If the old boss told lies, then a solicitor might be a useful way of stopping them from doing so again in future.

    But the OP needs to be very clear that

    1) it will cost, and
    2) it won't get back the job they just lost, and
    3) it will only help if the old boss was dishonest

    Other than that, it's a waste of money.

    I'm thinking that's where some of the disagreement might be in this thread.


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    #27
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    However badly you want to walk into the bosses office and tell him/her exactly what you think of him/her or his/her operation, just don't do it. Don't bicker argue or snipe. Look for another job and move on.


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    #28
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    If the old boss told lies, then a solicitor might be a useful way of stopping them from doing so again in future.

    But the OP needs to be very clear that

    1) it will cost, and
    2) it won't get back the job they just lost, and
    3) it will only help if the old boss was dishonest

    Other than that, it's a waste of money.

    I'm thinking that's where some of the disagreement might be in this thread.

    I completely agree - I'm not sure who anyone is disagreeing with as my post was quite clear on the fact that there would have to be some dishonesty involved.

    As I've said many times before the time to get a solicitor involved is negotiating an exit not after the horse has bolted. Granted for a 3 month stint it's probably not worth it. At that point people need to be aware the good ol' days of fudging a gap here and there on the CV are coming to an end.


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