Man comes out to family about being Gay, does not go well

caustic 1 · 30-08-2014 10:44pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Indeed. But their view doesn't deserve respect.

I am sure they wouldn't agree, it is how they deal with certain situations wrongly or rightly. I don't agree with it nor do you but they cannot see it from our point of view only with how they were told to react.

pharmaton · 30-08-2014 10:47pm

The drama. Whatever about the folks response, the lad has gone and destroyed any chance of them ever coming to terms with the information he gave them by burning them publically. it's just lots of sad all round.

caustic 1 · 30-08-2014 10:47pm

Export wrote: »

YOU ARE ASKING SOMEONE TO CHANGE THEIR SEXUALITY TO DISPLAY RESPECT FOR THEIR PARENTS.

Is that clear enough for you?

I really don't think anyone has said he should change his sexuality. I think the point was he should be more aware of their feeling towards his sexuality realising how difficult it is for them to accept or not as in this case. Neither showed any respect for feelings or views.

Rothmans · 30-08-2014 10:51pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

Because it's goes against what they believe in the same vein that you believe it's not.
They are putting him down because of their religion, or their interpretation of it.

It doesn't matter if they 'believe' gays are lesser people for Christ's sake. They are absolutely in the wrong, and that 'belief' shouldn't be humored as it only serves to justify their bigotry.

caustic 1 · 30-08-2014 10:54pm

Rothmans wrote: »

It doesn't matter if they 'believe' gays are lesser people for Christ's sake. They are absolutely in the wrong, and that 'belief' shouldn't be humored as it only serves to justify their bigotry.

In your opinion, that is theirs. Swings and roundabouts.

Export · 30-08-2014 10:55pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

In your opinion, that is theirs. Swings and roundabouts.

Mom knew. She told him that she knew since he was a young child.

Rothmans · 30-08-2014 10:56pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

In your opinion, that is theirs. Swings and roundabouts.

No it's a bloody fact

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 10:56pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

I am sure they wouldn't agree

I don't give a sh-t - their view doesn't deserve to be respected. Jeez!

caustic 1 · 30-08-2014 11:01pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I don't give a sh-t - their view doesn't deserve to be respected. Jeez!

So because you don't agree with someones views, beliefs they don't deserve respect?

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 11:05pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

So because you don't agree with someones views, beliefs they don't deserve respect?

Good lord your posts to this thread are disingenuous.
Views such as "Gays deserve to be demonised" and "Women who commit adultery deserve to have a shower of stones thrown at them" don't deserve to be respected because... they advocate gay people being demonised and women getting a load of stones thrown at them.
But you know this. FFS.

If someone's view is that The Rolling Stones are the greatest band of all time, I don't agree, but I respect their opinion - it's an opinion that doesn't harm anyone.

If someone believes god created earth, I don't respect that belief - because I think it's misinformation, but I won't give them grief because of it so long as they don't force it on me. So I guess in that sense I respect their view.

You I presume would respect someone having the view that Jews should be gassed, because hey, even though you don't disagree with them, you should "respect" their view? Blatant case of trying to be different. There's looking at things from all perspectives (which I do also) and then there's just venturing into the ludicrous.

Kiwi in IE · 30-08-2014 11:10pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

So because you don't agree with someones views, beliefs they don't deserve respect?

IS believe that Christians should be executed if they refuse to convert to Islam! Worthy of respect do you think?

Who are we to say that their beliefs are not worthy of respect because we don't agree?

caustic 1 · 30-08-2014 11:13pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Good lord your posts to this thread are disingenuous.
Views such as "Gays deserve to be demonised" and "Women who commit adultery deserve to have a shower of stones thrown at them" don't deserve to be respected because... they advocate gay people being demonised and women getting a load of stones thrown at them.
But you know this. FFS.

If someone's view is that The Rolling Stones are the greatest band of all time, I don't agree, but I respect their opinion - it's an opinion that doesn't harm anyone.

If someone believes god created earth, I don't respect that belief - because I think it's misinformation, but I won't give them grief because of it so long as they don't force it on me. So I guess in that sense I respect their view.

You I presume would respect someone having the view that Jews should be gassed, because hey, even though you don't disagree with them, you should "respect" their view? Nonsense.

Those are not my views at all but I believe they are held by others. I have my own opinions on what is right and what is wrong. MY OPINIONS MY OWN VIEWS. I will not ram them down other peoples throats because I believe them to be right. However I will TRY to respect the views of others including yours even though we don't see eye to eye on certain things.
The Rolling Stones were the greatest.

Czarcasm · 30-08-2014 11:16pm

dark crystal wrote: »

You can't compromise on who you're attracted to. How does anyone have the right to tell you to stop being gay or straight? That isn't a choice.

Nobody has suggested that he is able to compromise on who he is attracted to, that's not what I said at all.

While you can say nobody has a right to tell someone to stop being gay or straight, then you must also accept that nobody has the right to tell anyone their religious beliefs are a crock, or that "science trumps their religious beliefs". Respect goes both ways.

In just the same way as he believes he has no choice in being gay, his parents believe he has. He uses science to back up his assertions, but his parents do not understand science, so if he wants to help them understand him, then he must talk their language as such, which is religion.

It CAN be done, it has been done, and it continues to be done in order to help parents who are religious understand their children who are LGBT. It can't be done if both parties are more concerned with being right than they are with showing each other any respect or understanding.

I sometimes wonder how some people here would behave if they ever met a religious person who also identified as LGBT... interesting to see could they contain their disdain for the person's religion, could they leave aside their prejudices, or would they just avoid the person altogether so they wouldn't have to attempt to understand them, from that person's perspective, and not just their own adamant "right to be right".

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 11:16pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

Those are not my views at all but I believe they are held by others.

Well yeh they are - we all know that.

I have my own opinions on what is right and what is wrong. MY OPINIONS MY OWN VIEWS.

Right and wrong are often objective - opinion doesn't come into it.

I will not ram them down other peoples throats because I believe them to be right.

Yep, whatever you do, don't express that it's wrong to advocate harming others...

However I will TRY to respect the views of others

That's fine, but some views do not deserve respect - e.g. the stoning one. I question the sincerity of anyone who claims that and similar views advocating harm to others should be respected.

dark crystal · 30-08-2014 11:17pm

caustic 1 wrote: »

So because you don't agree with someones views, beliefs they don't deserve respect?

When they harm other people, no. This is humanity 101.

I don't respect paedophiles who believe children are there for their sexual gratification. I don't respect men who believe raping a woman is justified because she really meant yes when she said no. I don't respect women who falsely cry rape for revenge. I don't respect people who kill their daughters because they refused an arranged marriage and I don't respect parents who try to blackmail their children into turning straight under threat of cutting them off.

What are you finding so hard to grasp about this concept?

Czarcasm · 30-08-2014 11:19pm

Export wrote: »

YOU ARE ASKING SOMEONE TO CHANGE THEIR SEXUALITY TO DISPLAY RESPECT FOR THEIR PARENTS.

Is that clear enough for you?

Thanks for clearing that up. I see now where you're coming from, and either you're purposely twisting what I'm saying, or you're just more interested in playing to the crowd for a few miserable pissy thanks.

dark crystal · 30-08-2014 11:29pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

This "All opinions are sacred" bullsh-t... what genius dreamed that crap up?

No idea. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to read my well-eared copy of Mein Kampf. That Hitler dude was just so misunderstood. I mean, you gotta respect someone who believed all jews were scum who deserved to be annihilated.

....Right?

Czarcasm · 30-08-2014 11:30pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

This "All opinions are sacred" bullsh-t... what genius dreamed that crap up?

I suppose the same person that dreamt up the whole treating people with respect regardless of whether they choose to treat you with respect or not. It's bloody hard to do sometimes, but it's not impossible, and depending on how much it means to you, you'll make every effort to show someone respect and respect their opinion if you want them to show you respect and respect your opinion.

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 11:34pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I suppose the same person that dreamt up the whole treating people with respect regardless of whether they choose to treat you with respect or not.

Definitely. Someone gives you a slap, don't stop respecting them...

It's bloody hard to do sometimes, but it's not impossible, and depending on how much it means to you, you'll make every effort to show someone respect and respect their opinion if you want them to show you respect and respect your opinion.

If they put across an out and out wrong view (e.g. children are for the sexual gratification of paedophiles) respectfully, I would do so in kind - but I will still criticise their opinion, and most certainly will not respect it. I won't care either whether they have respect for my view or not - they're the type of people who wouldn't anyway.
You just look like you're trying to be contrarian Czarcasm. You know full well not all opinions deserve respect.

EunanMac · 30-08-2014 11:53pm

All I've see is a crappy overhyped hysterical shouting Jeremy Kyle / Jerry Springer style video.

Neither party were correct in the way they carried on, nor should any of them be considered or championed as ambassadors and representatives for christianity / science / homosexuality / family relationships.

Both sides especially displayed a woeful and / or selective ignorance of both Science and Christianity

Never argue with fools as the old saying goes, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Czarcasm · 30-08-2014 11:55pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Definitely. Someone gives you a slap, don't stop respecting them...

Like I said - sometimes it's so hard it feels like it's impossible, and it's easier to slap someone to get them to shut the hell up when you disagree with their opinion. There's a saying I always keep in mind and I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like this -

"Keep your temper. If you're in the right, you can afford to keep it. If you're in the wrong, you cannot afford to lose it".

I've taken more than a few slaps in my time, and only twice I've ever lost my temper and retaliated with physical violence - once against my old man, and once against the guy who made threats against my wife. Neither time I felt proud of myself afterwards for what I'd done, as I try to hold myself to a higher standard than resorting to violence to resolve conflict.

If they put across an out and out wrong view (e.g. children are for the sexual gratification of paedophiles) respectfully, I would do so in kind - but I will still criticise their opinion, and most certainly will not respect it.

Like I said, it depends on what it means to you to get the other person to understand where you're coming from, and obviously if someone holds that opinion and you don't agree with them (a more commonly bandied about opinion around these parts is there's nothing wrong with incest, something I fundamentally disagree with), but telling that person "Yeah, you're just wrong, your opinion is ridiculous", you've done nothing to change their opinion, you've made no attempt to understand where they're coming from in order to understand why they would hold such an opinion, and therefore they will continue to hold that opinion.

You just look like you're trying to be contrarian Czarcasm. You know full well not all opinions deserve respect.

You seriously think I put up with the amount of shìt I've taken in this thread alone just for shìts 'n' giggles? I can think of at least a hundred things I'd rather be doing right now (I'm in a club and I'm typing this on my phone right now), not because I'm trying to be contrarian, but because I actually give a shìt, and if I can get even one person who disagrees with me to see where I'm coming from, then I wouldn't consider that time and that effort wasted.

Shakespeare's Sister · 30-08-2014 11:58pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Like I said - sometimes it's so hard it feels like it's impossible, and it's easier to slap someone to get them to shut the hell up when you disagree with their opinion. There's a saying I always keep in mind and I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like this -

"Keep your temper. If you're in the right, you can afford to keep it. If you're in the wrong, you cannot afford to lose it".

I've taken more than a few slaps in my time, and only twice I've ever lost my temper and retaliated with physical violence - once against my old man, and once against the guy who made threats against my wife. Neither time I felt proud of myself afterwards for what I'd done, as I try to hold myself to a higher standard than resorting to violence to resolve conflict.

Like I said, it depends on what it means to you to get the other person to understand where you're coming from, and obviously if someone holds that opinion and you don't agree with them (a more commonly bandied about opinion around these parts is there's nothing wrong with incest, something I fundamentally disagree with), but telling that person "Yeah, you're just wrong, your opinion is ridiculous", you've done nothing to change their opinion, you've made no attempt to understand where they're coming from in order to understand why they would hold such an opinion, and therefore they will continue to hold that opinion.

But anyway, no, their opinions don't deserve to be respected. That doesn't mean screaming and swearing at them and giving them a slap - something can be disrespected without any of the above.
And you CERTAINLY shouldn't have to respect someone who gives you a slap.

I don't mean you should have to slap them back, but you just shouldn't have to respect them, simple as.
I'm really not concerned with people who agree with harming others, respecting what my views are.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 12:10am

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

But anyway, no, their opinions don't deserve to be respected. That doesn't mean screaming and swearing at them and giving them a slap - something can be disrespected without any of the above.
And you CERTAINLY shouldn't have to respect someone who gives you a slap.
I don't mean you should have to slap them back, but you just shouldn't have to respect them, simple as.
I'm really not concerned with people who agree with harming others, respecting what my views are.

Well I can only say that based on my experience, it's far better in the long run to show human beings respect no matter what they do to you, because you'll end up a very bitter person if you can't do that.

I'd rather take some short-term shìt than end up suffering twice for having committed no offence against another human being.

It's a strategy that's worked out better for me in 37 years than the default which is to show no respect to those people I disagree with. That's easy to do, it's much harder to continue to show them respect, but it pays off much better in the long run.

Shakespeare's Sister · 31-08-2014 12:13am

I don't believe for a nanosecond you respect every person, including those with a view that advocates harming others (you were hardly writing respectfully in relation to the lad in this story). And nothing wrong with that.
That's why I question your sincerity. Not respecting people who don't deserve respect (due to advocating harm of others) is absolutely fine - nothing bitter about it whatsoever. There's nothing bitter about a normal, rational human reaction.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 12:17am

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I don't believe for a nanosecond you respect every person, including those with a view that advocates harming others (you were hardly writing respectfully in relation to the lad in this story). And nothing wrong with that.
That's why I question your sincerity. Not respecting people who don't deserve respect (due to advocating harm of others) is absolutely fine - nothing bitter about it whatsoever. There's nothing bitter about a normal, rational human reaction.

Well that's why I stayed out of that whole Islamic law and stoning thing, that's a whole other shìtstorm altogether, and I'm not completely stupid! :pac:

EDIT: Just saw your edit there, and do you think I'd be telling him he's a jumped up little prick to his face if I was trying to get him to see where I feel he was in the wrong? Of course not.

EDIT2: There are people who would say that the parents reaction was a normal, rational, human reaction. I'd say it was fuelled by bitterness myself, in just the same way as the son's behaviour was fuelled by bitterness.

Shakespeare's Sister · 31-08-2014 12:22am

Czarcasm wrote: »

Well that's why I stayed out of that whole Islamic law and stoning thing, that's a whole other shìtstorm altogether, and I'm not completely stupid! :pac:

EDIT: Just saw your edit there, and do you think I'd be telling him he's a jumped up little prick to his face if I was trying to get him to see where I feel he was in the wrong? Of course not.

But you don't respect him.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 12:40am

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

But you don't respect him.

I'll try and explain as best I can -

I can think an awful lot of things about someone, but I still have to show them respect if they have something I want, and if I want them to understand where I'm coming from, I have to show them respect.

I can respect someone as a human being even though I disagree with their behaviour or their attitude, and I've called people all sorts behind their back, out of frustration and away from the conflict area if that makes sense (I'm a human being too like!), but when I'm back facing them again, as abhorrent as I may find their attitude and their behaviour - in order to get them to understand me, I have to show them understanding.

Now, what are the chances I'll ever be face to face with this guy? Very slim.

What are the chances I'll ever be face to face with anyone here? Very high.

I respect anyone I meet by default, because they are human beings first, and their behaviour is what defines them as a person second. Some people are really shìtty people, and I may not like them, but I still have to respect them as human beings if I'm ever to have any hope of helping them to understand where I'm coming from.

That whole "respect is earned" thing is what for me is a crock. In order to gain respect, you have to be willing to give it first.

krudler · 31-08-2014 1:03am

caustic 1 wrote: »

So because you don't agree with someones views, beliefs they don't deserve respect?

Not if those beliefs are based on intolerance and inequality no. Should I respect the beliefs so many Ugandans hold that homosexuality is punishable by death and gay people should be hunted down? Absolutely not.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 1:31am

krudler wrote: »

Not if those beliefs are based on intolerance and inequality no. Should I respect the beliefs so many Ugandans hold that homosexuality is punishable by death and gay people should be hunted down? Absolutely not.

The problem with that though krudler is that you're even more unlikely to ever change those beliefs if you don't respect them. You don't have to like them, but in order to change those beliefs, you first have to respect them and acknowledge that they do exist.

Saying that you don't have to respect them has no effect on the belief, and does nothing to change it, and refusing to acknowledge the belief is the very same as sweeping it under the carpet and pretending to yourself it doesn't exist.

That's why you hear some people, and even in this thread, coming out with "this is 2014, not 1954!", because they fail to respect the fact that no matter what century we're in, inherent humanity doesn't change - just as much as there will always be as much love and understanding in the world, there will equally be as much hatred and intolerance.

I've noticed that human beings can come up with some of the most unusual, unique, and almost ingenious ways to justify intolerant and abhorrent behaviour. Justifications like religious beliefs are just the easiest excuses, but they're also the hardest to argue against.

caustic 1 · 31-08-2014 8:59am

Czarcasm wrote: »

The problem with that though krudler is that you're even more unlikely to ever change those beliefs if you don't respect them. You don't have to like them, but in order to change those beliefs, you first have to respect them and acknowledge that they do exist.

Saying that you don't have to respect them has no effect on the belief, and does nothing to change it, and refusing to acknowledge the belief is the very same as sweeping it under the carpet and pretending to yourself it doesn't exist.

That's why you hear some people, and even in this thread, coming out with "this is 2014, not 1954!", because they fail to respect the fact that no matter what century we're in, inherent humanity doesn't change - just as much as there will always be as much love and understanding in the world, there will equally be as much hatred and intolerance.

I've noticed that human beings can come up with some of the most unusual, unique, and almost ingenious ways to justify intolerant and abhorrent behaviour. Justifications like religious beliefs are just the easiest excuses, but they're also the hardest to argue against.

Think I will leave it to you, I cannot word it properly and only dig a deeper hole and still not get where I am coming from across.

nervous_twitch · 31-08-2014 9:34am

Czarcasm wrote: »

The problem with that though krudler is that you're even more unlikely to ever change those beliefs if you don't respect them. You don't have to like them, but in order to change those beliefs, you first have to respect them and acknowledge that they do exist.

Saying that you don't have to respect them has no effect on the belief, and does nothing to change it, and refusing to acknowledge the belief is the very same as sweeping it under the carpet and pretending to yourself it doesn't exist.

That's why you hear some people, and even in this thread, coming out with "this is 2014, not 1954!", because they fail to respect the fact that no matter what century we're in, inherent humanity doesn't change - just as much as there will always be as much love and understanding in the world, there will equally be as much hatred and intolerance.

I've noticed that human beings can come up with some of the most unusual, unique, and almost ingenious ways to justify intolerant and abhorrent behaviour. Justifications like religious beliefs are just the easiest excuses, but they're also the hardest to argue against.

Your attitude has been absolutely horrendous on this thread Czarcasm. Irrespective of what you think of the kid, he has been completely rejected and disowned by the family who bore him. Blood is not thicker than water, evidently.

sunflower27 · 31-08-2014 9:59am

How any religious beliefs could come before the welfare of a parent's child is beyond me. That guy could have killed himself for being disowned and told he was a disgrace.

Also, if the mother knew he was gay, why didnt she kick him out earlier? He was just as gay then as he is now that he has verbalised it. She just said that she knew to try and save face when, in actuality, it just shows her up as a thick liar.

caustic 1 · 31-08-2014 10:34am

krudler wrote: »

Not if those beliefs are based on intolerance and inequality no. Should I respect the beliefs so many Ugandans hold that homosexuality is punishable by death and gay people should be hunted down? Absolutely not.

Ok I shall try again to say where I am coming from. No matter where you are from what part of the world most of us lucky, or not, to live with our parents. It is they that teach us our ABC s our numbers how to play, share, grow, work, and become hopefully well rounded individuals. Now you use Uganda as an example, so lets go with that. Imagine being born into a family there. A baby born into a family who's belief is that gay people should be hunted down and murdered. Are you as a baby wrong should you be hated. Now you grow up and are taught as we all are into thinking what our parents, communities, countries vehemently believe to be correct. I am not saying that is correct, I am saying this is what happens, so you now also believe it to be true . We know it's wrong as is a lot of things in this world. I don't agree with a vast majority of things in this world, however I am not as ignorant as to think everything is pure black and white. In our world it's wrong, perhaps they even think it's wrong but because of fear or whatever they don't go against the grain. I am not homophobic. But because I try to see the bigger picture I am wrong?

dark crystal · 31-08-2014 10:54am

Czarcasm wrote: »

The problem with that though krudler is that you're even more unlikely to ever change those beliefs if you don't respect them. You don't have to like them, but in order to change those beliefs, you first have to respect them and acknowledge that they do exist.

Saying that you don't have to respect them has no effect on the belief, and does nothing to change it, and refusing to acknowledge the belief is the very same as sweeping it under the carpet and pretending to yourself it doesn't exist.

That's why you hear some people, and even in this thread, coming out with "this is 2014, not 1954!", because they fail to respect the fact that no matter what century we're in, inherent humanity doesn't change - just as much as there will always be as much love and understanding in the world, there will equally be as much hatred and intolerance.

I've noticed that human beings can come up with some of the most unusual, unique, and almost ingenious ways to justify intolerant and abhorrent behaviour. Justifications like religious beliefs are just the easiest excuses, but they're also the hardest to argue against.

Not sure what you're arguing for or against at this stage now. The contradictions in this post are too numerous to list. Your last paragraph is especially confusing, given your stance throughout this thread.

Of course humanity changes. in 1954, there were laws segregating blacks and whites in Southern America. In Ireland, being homosexual was a crime. These things are no longer acceptable in a civil society.

In 1948, the universal declaration for human rights was published and over the ensuing 60 odd years since, we have seen a huge change in society's attitudes to things such as race, geneder equality and sexuality. During the drafting of that declaration, Eleanor Roosevelt said:

"Where, after all, do universal human rights begin? In small places, close to home — so close and so small that they cannot be seen on any maps of the world. Yet they are the world of the individual person; the neighbourhood he lives in; the school or college he attends; the factory, farm or office where he works. Such are the places where every man, woman and child seeks equal justice, equal opportunity, equal dignity without discrimination. Unless these rights have meaning there, they have little meaning anywhere. Without concerned citizen action to uphold them close to home, we shall look in vain for progress in the larger world."

Respecting intolerant beliefs does not progress society in any way, it holds it back. Intolerant beliefs should always be challenged and never just be swept under the carpet of 'respect'.
Your assertion that this guy should have bit his tongue and just respected his elders, who were throwing the God hates fags drivel at him, is saying he should have swept his human rights under the carpet because their faith trumps his human rights.

Respecting homophobia by way of religious faith is no different to respecting racism or anti semitism. Both those things were tolerated in the recent past, but are no longer so. Humanity can only change and evolve if ignorance and intolerance are challenged enough to become unacceptable. How you can argue any differently is simply beyond me.

dark crystal · 31-08-2014 11:12am

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok I shall try again to say where I am coming from. No matter where you are from what part of the world most of us lucky, or not, to live with our parents. It is they that teach us our ABC s our numbers how to play, share, grow, work, and become hopefully well rounded individuals. Now you use Uganda as an example, so lets go with that. Imagine being born into a family there. A baby born into a family who's belief is that gay people should be hunted down and murdered. Are you as a baby wrong should you be hated. Now you grow up and are taught as we all are into thinking what our parents, communities, countries vehemently believe to be correct. I am not saying that is correct, I am saying this is what happens, so you now also believe it to be true . We know it's wrong as is a lot of things in this world. I don't agree with a vast majority of things in this world, however I am not as ignorant as to think everything is pure black and white. In our world it's wrong, perhaps they even think it's wrong but because of fear or whatever they don't go against the grain. I am not homophobic. But because I try to see the bigger picture I am wrong?

Everyone can see the bigger picture. That's not the issue. The issue is people saying we have to respect these attitudes. We don't.

The people of 1930s and 40s Germany went along with the whole anti semetic thing until they were challenged and educated. Is Germany the same place now as then? Humanity evolves, not because intolerance is respected, but because it is challenged.

caustic 1 · 31-08-2014 12:59pm

dark crystal wrote: »

Everyone can see the bigger picture. That's not the issue. The issue is people saying we have to respect these attitudes. We don't.

The people of 1930s and 40s Germany went along with the whole anti semetic thing until they were challenged and educated. Is Germany the same place now as then? Humanity evolves, not because intolerance is respected, but because it is challenged.

You are making out like I supported the Holocaust. I have not, nor do I support violence in any form. I do however see how it can come about. I don't respect these peoples attitudes, I respect that these people are different. I know for a fact that the gay community have a lot to put up with, I don't however hate and disrespect people who don't agree with their way of life. if any or all of my children were to come home and say they were gay I would have no problem with it whatsoever. Nor would I have a problem with people who can't see it as a normal way of life. That is the way the world is, and yes whilst it is good to educate people and enlighten them that this is not a god awful way to be I don't believe shouting roaring slapping hitting or putting it all up on the net is the way to educate or enlighten. He would have had more respect from me when he said ok I will be out by Thursday he left the house and never returned. They are not going to change their minds that to them is so right whether it means losing a son or not.

pharmaton · 31-08-2014 1:10pm

I think the word respect has lost its meaning and value; it doesn't mean agree, support or condone and while it's difficult to see how it applies to this situation, the lad would have been better off just walking away and cutting his losses. He's a big boy now and he gets to choose his own way.
Gay threads never die.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 1:50pm

dark crystal wrote: »

Not sure what you're arguing for or against at this stage now. The contradictions in this post are too numerous to list. Your last paragraph is especially confusing, given your stance throughout this thread.

Of course humanity changes. in 1954, there were laws segregating blacks and whites in Southern America. In Ireland, being homosexual was a crime. These things are no longer acceptable in a civil society.

In 1948, the universal declaration for human rights was published and over the ensuing 60 odd years since, we have seen a huge change in society's attitudes to things such as race, geneder equality and sexuality. During the drafting of that declaration, Eleanor Roosevelt said:

"Where, after all, do universal human rights begin? In small places, close to home — so close and so small that they cannot be seen on any maps of the world. Yet they are the world of the individual person; the neighbourhood he lives in; the school or college he attends; the factory, farm or office where he works. Such are the places where every man, woman and child seeks equal justice, equal opportunity, equal dignity without discrimination. Unless these rights have meaning there, they have little meaning anywhere. Without concerned citizen action to uphold them close to home, we shall look in vain for progress in the larger world."

Respecting intolerant beliefs does not progress society in any way, it holds it back. Intolerant beliefs should always be challenged and never just be swept under the carpet of 'respect'.
Your assertion that this guy should have bit his tongue and just respected his elders, who were throwing the God hates fags drivel at him, is saying he should have swept his human rights under the carpet because their faith trumps his human rights.

Respecting homophobia by way of religious faith is no different to respecting racism or anti semitism. Both those things were tolerated in the recent past, but are no longer so. Humanity can only change and evolve if ignorance and intolerance are challenged enough to become unacceptable. How you can argue any differently is simply beyond me.

You can make all the laws you want, and that still doesn't change some people's attitudes. Ireland is a good example - do you honestly think that just because homosexuality has been made illegal that homophobia doesn't exist any more overnight? There are plenty of homophobic young people, that don't need 'God hates fags' to justify their hatred. They just hate them anyway. You think there aren't people in Irish society want to see gay people die? Of course there are.

In order to change their beliefs, you first as I said have to respect that these beliefs do exist, and acknowledge the fact that people who hold these beliefs do exist, because turning a blind eye to it and pretending they don't exist will never do anything to change the belief.

Words like 'tolerance' are meaningless. Nobody should have to feel like someone is just tolerating them. They're human beings and as human beings are entitled to as much respect as the next person. Do you think attitudes in society towards unmarried mothers have changed in the last 50 years despite our past? They changed all the laws, and yet there are people in Irish society who would rather see unmarried mothers locked up in a home for them (we had a thread on it here quite recently).

I could go on about a number of other sections in Irish society - drug and alcohol addicts, homeless people, etc, but you think I'm just talking shìte. I can assure you I'm not. But it's easier for you to divert your attention to a gay man having a falling out with his parents and it's easier for you to condemn them (like they'll ever hear your condemnation), or it's easier for you to say "killing people for being gay in Uganda is bad, m'kay?'. Well no shìt Sherlock. But what use is you condemning it from your armchair?

How about you take a walk in your own back yard first, and acknowledge half the shìte that's happening under your nose that you CAN do something about, that you CAN change? It's always easier to condemn someone than it is to do anything to help them.

I don't particularly care about someone in America at 20 years of age getting kicked out of his home by his parents, my empathy doesn't stretch that far. I don't particularly care about someone in Uganda - again, my empathy doesn't stretch that far. Shìt that's happening on my own doorstep however, that much I can at least try and do something about, but first I have to respect the fact that these people exist, and that people who hold these beliefs exist, and I have to respect their belief and acknowledge it if I want to change it, because simply condemning the belief, or condemning the person who holds the belief, does nothing to change it. That requires actually engaging with these people on their level, and there have been days when I've had my stomach turned, but if the end result is that they change their belief, then it's worth the short term stomach turning.

krudler · 31-08-2014 1:55pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

The problem with that though krudler is that you're even more unlikely to ever change those beliefs if you don't respect them. You don't have to like them, but in order to change those beliefs, you first have to respect them and acknowledge that they do exist.

Saying that you don't have to respect them has no effect on the belief, and does nothing to change it, and refusing to acknowledge the belief is the very same as sweeping it under the carpet and pretending to yourself it doesn't exist.

That's why you hear some people, and even in this thread, coming out with "this is 2014, not 1954!", because they fail to respect the fact that no matter what century we're in, inherent humanity doesn't change - just as much as there will always be as much love and understanding in the world, there will equally be as much hatred and intolerance.

I've noticed that human beings can come up with some of the most unusual, unique, and almost ingenious ways to justify intolerant and abhorrent behaviour. Justifications like religious beliefs are just the easiest excuses, but they're also the hardest to argue against.

But you've been saying all this thread that the parents beliefs should be respected, irregardless of how ignorant or wrong they are?

I think you're just winding people up at this stage. Unless you and I have different ideas of what respect means.
This guy's parents could have respected his lifestyle may not suit them but he's still their son, but no, they kicked him out. All your other excuses about science and repsect and whatever come afterwards to the simple fact that this guys family reject him because of who he is, its really that simple and you dont seem to be grasping it.

And no, not all beliefs should be respected, especially ones build on fear and hatred, or harmful to other people. "Ah Jim up the road would love to be rounding up black people and lynching them, cant say I agree but sure I respect his opinion" Are you for real?

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 1:58pm

nervous_twitch wrote: »

Your attitude has been absolutely horrendous on this thread Czarcasm. Irrespective of what you think of the kid, he has been completely rejected and disowned by the family who bore him. Blood is not thicker than water, evidently.

You'll get a few thanks for that, but do you think anything you've said will change my attitude?

Do you actually care whether you change my attitude or not, or is it just more important to you to be seem to condemn my attitude because it makes you feel better to be appreciated by strangers to you on the internet?

You're more than welcome to come spend a day with me at your earliest convenience, and then you can examine who's attitude needs changing.

It sure as hell ain't mine.

krudler · 31-08-2014 2:01pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

You'll get a few thanks for that, but do you think anything you've said will change my attitude?

Do you actually care whether you change my attitude or not, or is it just more important to you to be seem to condemn my attitude because it makes you feel better to be appreciated by strangers to you on the internet?

You're more than welcome to come spend a day with me at your earliest convenience, and then you can examine who's attitude needs changing.

It sure as hell ain't mine.

By your own reasoning of people just saying things for thanks on here (bizarre notion btw) I could just say you take the opposite view on everything just to stand out, wouldnt be the first time either.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 2:04pm

krudler wrote: »

And no, not all beliefs should be respected, especially ones build on fear and hatred, or harmful to other people. "Ah Jim up the road would love to be rounding up black people and lynching them, cant say I agree but sure I respect his opinion" Are you for real?

Ah you're right krudler, sure people like me don't exist at all. Does that make you feel more comfortable?

It's easier for you to believe I must be on a wind-up than it is to accept that I might actually be for real?

That's I'm talking about when I say that in order to change the belief, you first have to respect it and acknowledge that it exists, because if you can't, you're never likely to change it.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 2:09pm

krudler wrote: »

By your own reasoning of people just saying things for thanks on here (bizarre notion btw) I could just say you take the opposite view on everything just to stand out, wouldnt be the first time either.

That must be it krudler, because I have nothing better to do all day. I may care about opinions on here, because at least there's some hope that something I say might trigger someone to examine their own attitude. Someone in Uganda or America? There's not much hope of me changing peoples attitudes there now, is there?

I doubt this guys parents have ever even heard of YouTube, let alone Boards.ie!

krudler · 31-08-2014 2:10pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

You can make all the laws you want, and that still doesn't change some people's attitudes. Ireland is a good example - do you honestly think that just because homosexuality has been made illegal that homophobia doesn't exist any more overnight? There are plenty of homophobic young people, that don't need 'God hates fags' to justify their hatred. They just hate them anyway. You think there aren't people in Irish society want to see gay people die? Of course there are.

In order to change their beliefs, you first as I said have to respect that these beliefs do exist, and acknowledge the fact that people who hold these beliefs do exist, because turning a blind eye to it and pretending they don't exist will never do anything to change the belief.

Words like 'tolerance' are meaningless. Nobody should have to feel like someone is just tolerating them. They're human beings and as human beings are entitled to as much respect as the next person. Do you think attitudes in society towards unmarried mothers have changed in the last 50 years despite our past? They changed all the laws, and yet there are people in Irish society who would rather see unmarried mothers locked up in a home for them (we had a thread on it here quite recently).

I could go on about a number of other sections in Irish society - drug and alcohol addicts, homeless people, etc, but you think I'm just talking shìte. I can assure you I'm not. But it's easier for you to divert your attention to a gay man having a falling out with his parents and it's easier for you to condemn them (like they'll ever hear your condemnation), or it's easier for you to say "killing people for being gay in Uganda is bad, m'kay?'. Well no shìt Sherlock. But what use is you condemning it from your armchair?

How about you take a walk in your own back yard first, and acknowledge half the shìte that's happening under your nose that you CAN do something about, that you CAN change? It's always easier to condemn someone than it is to do anything to help them.

I don't particularly care about someone in America at 20 years of age getting kicked out of his home by his parents, my empathy doesn't stretch that far. I don't particularly care about someone in Uganda - again, my empathy doesn't stretch that far. Shìt that's happening on my own doorstep however, that much I can at least try and do something about, but first I have to respect the fact that these people exist, and that people who hold these beliefs exist, and I have to respect their belief and acknowledge it if I want to change it, because simply condemning the belief, or condemning the person who holds the belief, does nothing to change it. That requires actually engaging with these people on their level, and there have been days when I've had my stomach turned, but if the end result is that they change their belief, then it's worth the short term stomach turning.

What in the actual **** are you talking about at this stage? Things in the world dont matter because you cant change things so you just accept that people are pricks and that's that? but it's different if they live near you? what?

I don't even think you know what your own point is at this stage given how much you've contradicted yourself.

Homophobia of course still exists, hell the AH gay hating regulars are testament to that, but people's attitudes have changed, even older people I know who are pro gay marriage. Or will you tell me that because you know different people that I must be imaginging things and your reality is the only reality? Homsexuality is a lot more acceptable, especially among younger people in todays society, because..humanity changes.

Are you seriously suggesting that because people post on this topic that they dont care about other people in our own society and this is just a distraction? hell you're the one keeping this thread going.

krudler · 31-08-2014 2:11pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ah you're right krudler, sure people like me don't exist at all. Does that make you feel more comfortable?

It's easier for you to believe I must be on a wind-up than it is to accept that I might actually be for real?

That's I'm talking about when I say that in order to change the belief, you first have to respect it and acknowledge that it exists, because if you can't, you're never likely to change it.

I accept that racism exists, do I respect racists? Absolutely not. Why would I?

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 2:24pm

krudler wrote: »

What in the actual **** are you talking about at this stage? Things in the world dont matter because you cant change things so you just accept that people are pricks and that's that? but it's different if they live near you? what?

What effect do you think your opinion on here will have on the parents in this particular case?

I'm going to have a stab in the dark and say 'zero'. Multiply zero by a billion and the answer is still zero.

Homophobia of course still exists, hell the AH gay hating regulars are testament to that, but people's attitudes have changed, even older people I know who are pro gay marriage. Or will you tell me that because you know different people that I must be imaginging things and your reality is the only reality? Homsexuality is a lot more acceptable, especially among younger people in todays society, because..humanity changes.

You truly believe that? Because the AH regulars as you put it, are just as much a representative sample of Irish society as you are, and if you ever take a trip round Facebook, you'll see more representative examples of Irish society.

Are you seriously suggesting that because people post on this topic that they dont care about other people in our own society and this is just a distraction?

No I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that there's absolutely nothing you or I or anyone here can do to change the parents attitudes towards their son in America, a population of nearly 300 million people.

hell you're the one keeping this thread going.

At the risk of yet again pointing out the obvious...

krudler · 31-08-2014 2:30pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

You truly believe that? Because the AH regulars as you put it, are just as much a representative sample of Irish society as you are, and if you ever take a trip round Facebook, you'll see more representative examples of Irish society.

Absolutely, it's far more acceptable in Irish society to be gay now than it was 20 years go. To think otherwise is just blinkered. Do people still dislike gay people for no real reason? absolutely. But I'd wager the majority of people have no problem with them at all, I guess time will tell in the SSM referendum.

Czarcasm · 31-08-2014 2:30pm

krudler wrote: »

I accept that racism exists, do I respect racists? Absolutely not. Why would I?

Because as I said, you don't have to like them as people, you don't even have to accept the way they think, but in order to change that, first you have to respect them as human beings, respect the fact that they think the way they do, and then use that as the starting point to change their attitude.

Your condemning them is no different to them condemning another human being, and do you think your condemning them is going to change them condemning someone else? How is that supposed to change anything?

It doesn't.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 31-08-2014 2:32pm

Why do you think that your opinion is the only one that matters? Why are you going on and on about knowing what's best for everyone else? Why do you feel like its your job to "educate" and "change" people's beliefs so that they're more like yours? Jesus, you are bordering on bizarre. Seriously. Let it go, you're not always right about everything.

DeadHand · 31-08-2014 2:34pm

The parents are wrong on all counts, no one chooses to be gay and people should look after their own regardless of what they are. Their views are ignorant and distasteful but weren't expressed publically. They are undeserving of the global humiliation and condemnation they are now suffering at the hands of their own son. Homophobic attitudes are rightfully challenged robustly enough without penetrating into otherwise decent people's homes and private lives to seek it out and mass publicise it out of spite.

The young man was wrong, parading his familial difficulties in public to garner sympathy, attention and, whether he intended to or not, money.

If his parents were bigots, he should have washed his hands of them privately and moved on, he is an adult after all. There would have been more dignity in that.

Man comes out to family about being Gay, does not go well

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