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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #5052
    conditioned games
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭conditioned games


    chicken foot wrote: »
    Again, another troll flattened with facts. They might want to update their Hasbara, they're barely lasting one round anymore!

    Unlucky chicken. Yer tripe on here is out of touch with reality. Facts some of ye have quoted on here have turned out to be lies. Away with you.


  • #5053
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,949 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    shedweller wrote: »
    Does israel recognise the state of Palestine?
    Oh wait...erm...ahhhh.....

    Nope. See Likud's charter.

    (Chance of that being mentioned by western media? Fck all).


  • #5054
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    conditioned games wrote: »
    ...............

    　
    Please do tell me where those that marched against ISIS took place. According to the news people couldn't be bothered. I like how you are trying to distance yourself from the ISIS, very good of you and not unexpected of the foolish bridgade on here.

    　
    ...........................

    Israel has been occupying and colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem for nearly 50 years, yet it faces no sanctions. Russia grabbed the Crimea and within weeks was under sanctions.

    Why would people march against ISIS exactly? They're dubbed a terrorist organisation, are being bombed by the US and whoever. They, unlike Israel, won't be in the Eurovision song contest either.


  • #5055
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    conditioned games wrote: »
    Unlucky chicken. Yer tripe on here is out of touch with reality. Facts some of ye have quoted on here have turned out to be lies. Away with you.

    Irish Praetorian, please post more, I disagree with your stance but you challenge me to look up the history.

    Hey conditioned games tell us all about terror tunnels, do they all come up in kindergartens?


  • #5056
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    conditioned games wrote: »
    Unlucky chicken. Yer tripe on here is out of touch with reality. Facts some of ye have quoted on here have turned out to be lies. Away with you.
    The only fact we have from any of your posts is how many time you can fit the word "ISIS" into a thread that has **** all to do with them.


    Is "ISIS" the new "TERRORIST"? OMG knee jerk emotional response bomb them quick go team America what's next on Fox?


  • #5057
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Just catching up with the thread and I see the Zionist apologists standards & 'analysis', has fallen to embarrassing new lows.


  • #5058
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Just catching up with the thread and I see the Zionist apologists standards & 'analysis', has fallen to embarrassing new lows.
    They're skipping straight to apologist garbage effort #10 now I see, whataboutery: ISIS are bad... so therefore bombing sleeping children in Palestine is OK. Got it?


  • #5059
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    conditioned games wrote: »
    You are not telling the truth. In 2013 Hamas fired 52 rockets

    They are not rockets they are glorified fireworks.


  • #5060
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Just catching up with the thread and I see the Zionist apologists standards & 'analysis', has fallen to embarrassing new lows.


    Well they do tend to be shallow,crass,uninformed,mindless,befuddled and generally senseless.

    However, here is a video from Noor Harazeen providing some insight into the trauma facing the children who survived..barely.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSeygAw6XBY


  • #5061
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    conditioned games wrote: »
    You refuse to accept the threat Israel faces is the same threat Syria and Iraq face's from Jidhadist fighters.....blah blah blah whataboutery

    You refuse to accept that palestine isn't part of Israel ?
    Syria and Iraq are sovereign statse with a standing army, a functioning police force and have responsibilities for their own borders. The Jihadist issue is a domestic one, with a load of ex-pats, mercenaries and nutters jumping on planes to weigh into it.

    Palestine on the other hand is not a part of Israel, is not recognised by Israel, does not have the resources to maintain a contemporary army, or a realistic police force. It has no control over its own borders and has been effectively blockaded into position for a long time now. By none other than Israel.

    Until Israel faces the fact (or is forced to face the fact) that they are at least equally culpable for the desperation and violence of the Palestinian people through their constant squeezing, discrimination, denial and refusal to recognize their rights to self determination and governance. This has been performed in military, political, social and financial forms and when viewed as an overall treatment of a nation of people is nothing short of despicable.

    It beggars belief the number of people who serve as shills and apologists for the behavior of the IDF and the Israeli government.


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  • #5062
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conditioned games wrote: »
    You refuse to accept the threat Israel faces is the same threat Syria and Iraq face's from Jidhadist fighters that are drawn from around the world to fight in a country because they feel some form of connection to fellow sunni muslims.

    Once again, the conflict in Iraq is a completely different conflict. Also, again a transparent attempt to try and change the topic.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Therefore what you talk is crap as you refuse to achnowledge a threat that exists for Israel from these same fighters. These once had a bigger impact on Israel before it reinforced it's borders to stop the jihadist sucide bombers from killing it's people.
    　
    No, its not crap at all. You seem to be claiming you can predict the future, and are speaking of a hypothetical situation, that you know has nothing to do with the actual topic.

    I see no reason to engage in someone who is just trying change the subject. Your not the first post to have tried to do this. If you want to talk about ISIS, well there is already a thread on here for that.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    The coverage of the ISIS has been more to do with US involvement.

    Coverage started, when they grabbed huge chunks of Iraq, and not due to US involvement......
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Those been slaughtered over there would be waiting a very long time for any anti Israel clown to show some form of interest. It's perfectly ok for sunni muslims to kill Christians and Druze's but if a well educated democratic country like Israel stands up for it self those in the west feel they have a right to knock them.

    No one said it was ok for Sunni Muslims to kill anyone......?

    Interesting that you call a country that currently occupying the West Bank, a democracy, especially Israel has 0 intention of even leaving the West Bank, as per settlement expansion. Amazing that you would call that standing up for itself. Its utterly amazing to see such transparent support for murder of Palestinians, oh wait that par for course for supporters of Israel.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Please do tell me where those that marched against ISIS took place.

    Please show where I mentioned any kind of marches...???

    BTW, the fact remains that ISIS are being bombed and are a proscribed terrorist organization.

    Now in the case of Israel, Western nations are actively supporting there murderous outrages and hence protests, seeing as some people aren't happy about there own countries supporting the murder of civilians.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    According to the news people couldn't be bothered. I like how you are trying to distance yourself from the ISIS, very good of you and not unexpected of the foolish bridgade on here.
    　
    What are you even talking about. You keep trying to claim that other poster are some how supportive of ISIS, and yet can't provide any proof to back up your claims and refuse to do so.

    So again, I ask to back up your accusation. Come on now, surely you can do that, right? You aren't just making stuff up? Surely you would never do such a thing.......
    conditioned games wrote: »
    The IDF have every reason to need weapons. They are confronted with countries that want Israel gone and if Israel didn't have a good army there is every chance their neighbouring countries would gang up on them again.

    Israel is using those weapons to murder civilians, so as long as they keep that up, then they should be receiving weapons.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    A peace deal can only be as good as the paper is written on. If Israel decided to take a casual approach and not have a well equipped army, what is to stop Egypt, Jordan and the rest of the crew from launching an attack on Israel again.

    What to stop Israel from launching an attack on Egypt and Jordan? After all peace deals are according to you worthless. Sure, the IRA should re arm, after all the good Friday agreement is according to you worthless. Sure, why should we even bother with peace deal, because according to you there apparently worthless.

    If people taught the way you think, the entire world would never know a single day of peace.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    The borders Israel have are those that have kept the suicide bombers at bay for the last few years. Hamas has always continued to fire rockets at Israel even when Israel met their side of the agreement by releasing prisoners.

    Except that what your saying is not true at all, but then again most of what your saying isn't true either.

    Hamas had stopped firing rockets at Israel, however other groups do fire rockets at Israel, and Hamas simply can't stop all of them, but the fact of the matter is that they have set up squads to stop them, and the have been largely successful.

    As for the release of prisoners, that was just one part of the deal, you left out the part of easing the siege.

    Also, Israel rearrested those they released, which you know violated there agreement.....

    As for trying to justify Israel settlement expansion, how exactly does placing there own citizens on other peoples land keep them safe? Seems to me that the settlers are being put in harms way. One could even call them Human Shields....

    conditioned games wrote: »
    Israel has continued to be under attack from rocket fire, when they retaliate how is that not self defense. If you say that Hamas has stopped the rocket attacks then why were 52 rockets and 18 moartars fired into Israel during 2013. You are not talking sense.

    Israel is an occupying the Palestinians and as such there aggressors in the conflict. You see the occupation is ongoing and has been going on for years, and is something you have chosen to ignore, as the existence of the occupation is inconvenient for you.

    So, once again, Israel are the occupiers, and as such are not engaged in self defense.

    Secondly, Hamas didn't fire those rockets, as other militant groups operate in Gaza, and Hamas actively do have squads to stop such rocket fire, but the simple fact is that like any government, you can't stop all crime.

    Much like the IDF can't stop all settlers attacks on Palestinians, that is if they were to actually try and stop settler attacks, they wouldn't be able to stop all of them.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    It is not nonsense to compare the potential treatment Israelis would receive from Palestines and other Jihadist groups if Israel remained weak to the treatment their previous generations received from the Nazi's.

    It is nonsense, as once again Israel are the occupiers, something that you seem to refuse to acknowledge the existence of. Why is that? Why do you pretend that there is no occupation? Why is it ok for Israel to murder civilians? Why do you support one and condemn the other? Why the blatant hypocrisy?
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Their previous treatment should remind them what would happen to them if they were to take a soft approach. Overall from reading your post you seem to lack a sense of reality and refuse to achnowledge the threat Israel faces. However you are not the only foolish poster on here which is a pity.

    Now, you resorting to name calling, the last resort of someone who can't come up with a counter argument.

    I will note once again you fail to acknowledge the existence of the occupation. Dismiss peace treaties as being worthless. Try to change the subject again and again and again. Make stuff up and claim that is what other posters believe. Then engage in name calling. All the hall marks of someone who can't actually argue there case and has to resort to underhanded tactics to try and desperately smear other posters.

    Also, as far as not acknowledging you nonsense claims, I already detailed why you were factually wrong, and the only response you came up with was that peace treaties are apparently worthless. So I guess the various successful peace treaties throughout history never happened in your version of reality.....


  • #5063
    conditioned games
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭conditioned games


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    If there is no intention of expanding into Gaza would you care to comment on the 1 km and 3Km exclusion zones , in a strip that is 7Km wide , that mean the residents of Gaza have effectively been evicted from 44% of the land area ?


    The exclusion zones have been created to act as a buffer zone from Hamas rockets and the creation of tunnels into Israel to attack its people. Israel does not want to claim that land and if Palestine wants the exclusion zones to be deactivated then all they have to do is behave and stop attacking its neighbour.


  • #5064
    conditioned games
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭conditioned games


    wes wrote: »
    Once again, the conflict in Iraq is a completely different conflict. Also, again a transparent attempt to try and change the topic.


    　
    No, its not crap at all. You seem to be claiming you can predict the future, and are speaking of a hypothetical situation, that you know has nothing to do with the actual topic.

    I see no reason to engage in someone who is just trying change the subject. Your not the first post to have tried to do this. If you want to talk about ISIS, well there is already a thread on here for that.



    Coverage started, when they grabbed huge chunks of Iraq, and not due to US involvement......



    No one said it was ok for Sunni Muslims to kill anyone......?

    Interesting that you call a country that currently occupying the West Bank, a democracy, especially Israel has 0 intention of even leaving the West Bank, as per settlement expansion. Amazing that you would call that standing up for itself. Its utterly amazing to see such transparent support for murder of Palestinians, oh wait that par for course for supporters of Israel.



    Please show where I mentioned any kind of marches...???

    BTW, the fact remains that ISIS are being bombed and are a proscribed terrorist organization.

    Now in the case of Israel, Western nations are actively supporting there murderous outrages and hence protests, seeing as some people aren't happy about there own countries supporting the murder of civilians.


    　
    What are you even talking about. You keep trying to claim that other poster are some how supportive of ISIS, and yet can't provide any proof to back up your claims and refuse to do so.

    So again, I ask to back up your accusation. Come on now, surely you can do that, right? You aren't just making stuff up? Surely you would never do such a thing.......



    Israel is using those weapons to murder civilians, so as long as they keep that up, then they should be receiving weapons.



    What to stop Israel from launching an attack on Egypt and Jordan? After all peace deals are according to you worthless. Sure, the IRA should re arm, after all the good Friday agreement is according to you worthless. Sure, why should we even bother with peace deal, because according to you there apparently worthless.

    If people taught the way you think, the entire world would never know a single day of peace.



    Except that what your saying is not true at all, but then again most of what your saying isn't true either.

    Hamas had stopped firing rockets at Israel, however other groups do fire rockets at Israel, and Hamas simply can't stop all of them, but the fact of the matter is that they have set up squads to stop them, and the have been largely successful.

    As for the release of prisoners, that was just one part of the deal, you left out the part of easing the siege.

    Also, Israel rearrested those they released, which you know violated there agreement.....

    As for trying to justify Israel settlement expansion, how exactly does placing there own citizens on other peoples land keep them safe? Seems to me that the settlers are being put in harms way. One could even call them Human Shields....




    Israel is an occupying the Palestinians and as such there aggressors in the conflict. You see the occupation is ongoing and has been going on for years, and is something you have chosen to ignore, as the existence of the occupation is inconvenient for you.

    So, once again, Israel are the occupiers, and as such are not engaged in self defense.

    Secondly, Hamas didn't fire those rockets, as other militant groups operate in Gaza, and Hamas actively do have squads to stop such rocket fire, but the simple fact is that like any government, you can't stop all crime.

    Much like the IDF can't stop all settlers attacks on Palestinians, that is if they were to actually try and stop settler attacks, they wouldn't be able to stop all of them.



    It is nonsense, as once again Israel are the occupiers, something that you seem to refuse to acknowledge the existence of. Why is that? Why do you pretend that there is no occupation? Why is it ok for Israel to murder civilians? Why do you support one and condemn the other? Why the blatant hypocrisy?



    Now, you resorting to name calling, the last resort of someone who can't come up with a counter argument.

    I will note once again you fail to acknowledge the existence of the occupation. Dismiss peace treaties as being worthless. Try to change the subject again and again and again. Make stuff up and claim that is what other posters believe. Then engage in name calling. All the hall marks of someone who can't actually argue there case and has to resort to underhanded tactics to try and desperately smear other posters.

    Also, as far as not acknowledging you nonsense claims, I already detailed why you were factually wrong, and the only response you came up with was that peace treaties are apparently worthless. So I guess the various successful peace treaties throughout history never happened in your version of reality.....


    Again you continue to make stuff up that is not true and offer a poor level of knowledge. Still toy try to distance youself from the threat of Jihadist fighters to the state of Israel. You can clearly see pictures and videos of their work through the ISIS movement in Syria and Iraq but try to hide away from the fact these jihadist fighters would also attack Israel if they didn't secure their borders.


    This is not a hypothetical situation. Before Israel built the walls to protect themselves there were many jihadist fighters similar to the ones in Syria now, that came to their country to attack their people. Are you really trying to tell me that is a hypothetical situation and would not happen again if Israel relaxed its borders. Come on now get real.


    No, coverage of ISIS in the western media did not begin when they started to grab chunks of land as you claim. It was when the US started to take an interest that the some cameras that carried stories of the terrorists in Palestine began to show some coverage of the situation in Iraq. Up until then people like you and the international community were happy to turn a blind eye.


    Whether you want to believe it or not Israel is a democratically elected government. Their people go to the polls and vote for who they want. Those that gain a majority form a government. What part of this do you not believe.


    Why shouldn't they stand up for themselves. They come under attack, should they roll over. Yes some Palestines die in retaliation, that is part of the course when Hamas launchs rockets from densely populated areas.
    Why shouldn't western nations support Israel. They are a democratic country with a well educated people that try to defend themselves against some very bad terrorist organisations around them.


    Yes the IDF should receive as much help as possible and especially in the form of weapons. Civilians do get killed when Israel has to protect itself, while it is a big downside in retaliations, that is the harsh reality when having to stop rockets been fired on its people. And I know how much you would rather see Israeli civilians been killed instead.


    You talk more nonsence saying Israel wants to attack Egypt and Jordan. They are a small country that has to stand up for itself. Do you really believe Israel wants to attack Egypt or is that more garbage from you.
    I never said all peace deals are worthless. However a peace deal while good if it holds, there is no guarantee that it will always exist. Didn't Stalin and Hitler sign a secret peace deal not to invade each other and to split Poland in two. Did that peace deal hold up? Do you think Israel should maintain a weak army and keep it's fingers crossed that their neighbouring countries keep their side of the peace deal and not attack Israel again.


    Hamas were not successful in stopping rockets and meeting their side of the peace treaty. Rockets and moraters continued throughout 2013. The prisoners that were rearrested were those that went straight back to engaging in terrorist activities. After leting them go should Israel have left those that were planning future attacks against them do what they like. No they shouldn't. Those that were freed did not all behave and that is why some were justifyably rearrested.


    The treatment the jews faced from Nazi's is a very real treat they face in Israel from jihadist groups. This is not nonsense. Nazi's wanted them exterminated and Hamas as part of their charter wants the state of Israel to be replaced with an islamic state. This is a similar threat to their future survival that you do not want to acknowledge.


    Overall you claim facts that are not true, you deny Israel faces a real threat to its future survival and you think if Israel trys to be weak and take a soft approach that all will be ok for them. Your knowledge is poor but I will look forward to correcting your lies.


  • #5065
    ahmdoda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 185 ✭✭ahmdoda


    Panthro wrote: »
    snip

    Pretty disturbing video of a man being buried alive circulating.

    Please note. It's not pleasent viewing

    this is actually from Syria its clear from their accents specially in the end when the man was trying to say "there is no god but allah" they kept telling him to say "there is no god but Bashar"


  • #5066
    conditioned games
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭conditioned games


    Panthro wrote: »
    snip

    Pretty disturbing video of a man being buried alive circulating.

    Please note. It's not pleasent viewing

    This is the type of people Israel have to deal with at their front door. However we in the west will turn a blind eye as per usual and instead attack Israel for wanting to defend itself.


  • #5067
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    Mod

    Unapproved the vid for now, gimmie a few minutes on it

    Cheers

    -KERSPLAT!

    OK vid deleted, see charter

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63137261&postcount=15


  • #5068
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,944 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    conditioned games wrote: »
    This is the type of people Israel have to deal with at their front door. However we in the west will turn a blind eye as per usual and instead attack Israel for wanting to defend itself.

    Defend itself from bottle rockets? Thats what the Iron Dome is for, dropping Jericho missiles from fighter jets is not defending yourself, its excessive force.


  • #5069
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    conditioned games wrote: »
    Again you continue(................)but I will look forward to correcting your lies.

    I think it's great that in your part of the multi-verse Israel isn't colonising the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem.


  • #5070
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conditioned games wrote: »
    Again you continue to make stuff up that is not true and offer a poor level of knowledge.

    I have? Interesting, care to quote exactly what I made up then? I see that you keep making such claims and are then completely unable to you know prove them.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Still toy try to distance youself from the threat of Jihadist fighters to the state of Israel. You can clearly see pictures and videos of their work through the ISIS movement in Syria and Iraq but try to hide away from the fact these jihadist fighters would also attack Israel if they didn't secure their borders.

    Seriously, WTF are you on about? Distance myself? Seriously, what the hell are you saying? Seriously repeating the same thing over and over again, will not suddenly make it correct.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    This is not a hypothetical situation. Before Israel built the walls to protect themselves there were many jihadist fighters similar to the ones in Syria now, that came to their country to attack their people. Are you really trying to tell me that is a hypothetical situation and would not happen again if Israel relaxed its borders. Come on now get real.

    Get real? The only one in need of a reality check is you. Israel btw built its wall on stolen land, and btw there are also settlement outside there wall. Also, 1000s of Palestinians sneak past the wall on a daily basis to work in Israel.

    As for you now infamous argument of desperately trying to link ISIS to these events, as to some how retroactively justify Israel blatant theft of Palestinian land is astonishing.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    No, coverage of ISIS in the western media did not begin when they started to grab chunks of land as you claim.

    Except that the most recent of coverage of them began when they did that:

    https://www.google.ie/search?q=ISIS+take+Iraqi+towns&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gws_rd=cr&ei=JfQAVL-uFoXN7Ab3uYCwCQ#channel=fflb&q=ISIS+take+Iraq+towns&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&spell=1

    Plenty of stories that predate US air strikes....... Not that you will acknowledge there existence of anything, as facts are something you don't like.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    It was when the US started to take an interest that the some cameras that carried stories of the terrorists in Palestine began to show some coverage of the situation in Iraq. Up until then people like you and the international community were happy to turn a blind eye.

    People like me turned a blind eye. Oh wow, that some utter bull**** there, but then that is to be expected, again plenty of media coverage predating US air strikes and what not. Your claim is untrue, and why you insist on this is beyond odd.

    BTW, I note that you haven't once posted in any thread related to ISIS (btw I have posted in regards to ISIS on threads about them in the past, so your claim about turning a blind eye is complete bull****, like everything you post).

    Now you on the other hand, have only posted about ISIS to a Israel/Palestine thread. Now, that is interesting isn't it? It seems to me your concern for ISIS, only exists in so far, as you can use it to distract from the actual topic if this thread, and in fact your are using the suffering of people in Iraq to score cheap shots on a unrelated topic.

    Then, you have the gall to claim other people are turning a blind eye, which is just the latest in a long list of accusation that you make and can't back up, as there untrue.

    Why is that you are using the suffering of people in Iraq like this? Its a disgusting thing to do imho, and quite frankly just make you look bad. It far worse then the false accusation of turning a blind eye you make against others imho, exploiting people suffering like that.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Whether you want to believe it or not Israel is a democratically elected government. Their people go to the polls and vote for who they want. Those that gain a majority form a government. What part of this do you not believe.

    What part of the occupation of Palestinian land do you not understand exactly? Do you think there is no occupation? Why do you not acknowledge its existence? Why do you not actually respond to what is actually said?

    How exactly is Israel a democracy, when they rule of millions of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and keeping millions in Gaza under an inhuman siege that target every Man, Woman and Child in Gaza? Come care to explain how its democratic, that an Israeli settlers is judged under one set of laws, and Palestinians under a completely separate racist system? What about the Jewish only roads?

    conditioned games wrote: »
    Why shouldn't they stand up for themselves. They come under attack, should they roll over. Yes some Palestines die in retaliation, that is part of the course when Hamas launchs rockets from densely populated areas.

    Ah, some Palestinians die, so nice of you wave away 100s of dead children. Another disgusting statement making excuse for the murder of civilians. The IDF deliberately target civilians. Plenty of examples of that have been provided in the thread so far.

    BTW, Hamas started firing rockets, after Israel launched air strikes against them. I know facts are something you like to ignore, but that doesn't make them go away.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Why shouldn't western nations support Israel. They are a democratic country with a well educated people that try to defend themselves against some very bad terrorist organisations around them.

    No one should support the murder of civilians, which is what Israel is doing, so that they can steal Palestinian land, something you refuse to acknowledge.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Yes the IDF should receive as much help as possible and especially in the form of weapons. Civilians do get killed when Israel has to protect itself, while it is a big downside in retaliations, that is the harsh reality when having to stop rockets been fired on its people. And I know how much you would rather see Israeli civilians been killed instead.

    Dead Palestinians are down side. Again, disgusting statement. Your posts get worse and worse, with the constant down playing of civilians being murdered by the IDF. IMHO, making excuses and denial is tantamount to support for murdering civilians. Then again, support for IDF war crimes is all to common form those who support Zionism.

    Again, the harsh reality is that Israel as an occupying power, expanding outside there borders broke the truce (they never actually adhered to the conditions to being with) when they started arresting members of Hamas, that were released as part of the agreement, then murdered Palestinians (long before the kidnapping of the settler teenagers as well), then launched air strikes on Gaza, and the Hamas and other Palestinian militants launched rockets.

    Again, I know you hate facts, and won't acknowledge, them and will just post a long spiel stating that you right, because you say so.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    You talk more nonsence saying Israel wants to attack Egypt and Jordan. They are a small country that has to stand up for itself. Do you really believe Israel wants to attack Egypt or is that more garbage from you.

    Oh dear, I was taking the piss out of you own claim... Dear, dear, someone doesn't quite understand sarcasm.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    I never said all peace deals are worthless.

    ROFL, game me a good laugh there:
    conditioned games wrote: »
    A peace deal can only be as good as the paper is written on. If Israel decided to take a casual approach and not have a well equipped army, what is to stop Egypt, Jordan and the rest of the crew from launching an attack on Israel again.

    "only as good as the paper is written on" (your exact words), seems pretty clear what you think of the peace treaty.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    However a peace deal while good if it holds, there is no guarantee that it will always exist.

    Wait a second, then its just as likely that Israel will attack Jordan or Egypt (btw I am not being serious, as you seem to have trouble with sarcasm) then.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Didn't Stalin and Hitler sign a secret peace deal not to invade each other and to split Poland in two. Did that peace deal hold up?

    Ah yes, using the 2 most blood thirsty mass murders in history as an example......... Are you being serious? Stalin and Hitler were blood thirsty mad men, of course a peace treaty with those crazies was worthless. FFS, your example is utter tripe.

    As it stands the treaty between Israel and Jordan, Egypt and Israel have both lasted far longer then the one you mention.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Do you think Israel should maintain a weak army and keep it's fingers crossed that their neighbouring countries keep their side of the peace deal and not attack Israel again.

    No, I think you made a claim about Israel being surrounded by people wanting to destroy them, when that is false claim, due to the existence of peace treaties, and an offer of a complete peace with the entire arab league (also backed by every single Muslim majority country as well), that Israel has ignored for over a decade at this point.

    Instead Israeli government of the period, chose to continue there greater Israel project, by stealing more land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank instead, of you negotiating in good faith.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Hamas were not successful in stopping rockets and meeting their side of the peace treaty. Rockets and moraters continued throughout 2013.

    They stopped the vast majority of them. Its impossible to stop a 100% of crime, and there will always be nutters who will try and cause conflict.

    BTW, Israel never eased the whole siege, so there ones to talk in regards to holding to a truce, and let not forget the whole settlement expansion thing.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    The prisoners that were rearrested were those that went straight back to engaging in terrorist activities. After leting them go should Israel have left those that were planning future attacks against them do what they like. No they shouldn't. Those that were freed did not all behave and that is why some were justifyably rearrested.

    What your claiming here is completely untrue, and there is 0 evidence to back up this claim of yours, just like everything else you claim, now that I think of it.

    Why is that you make things up?
    conditioned games wrote: »
    The treatment the jews faced from Nazi's is a very real treat they face in Israel from jihadist groups.

    Palestinians are Nazi's, yeah that just pathetic thing to claim about an occupied people.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    This is not nonsense.

    Oh yes it is nonsense of the highest order, seeing as you ignore the occupation. Why do you ignore it?
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Nazi's wanted them exterminated and Hamas as part of their charter wants the state of Israel to be replaced with an islamic state. This is a similar threat to their future survival that you do not want to acknowledge.

    Zionists are doing the same to Palestinians and have been doing so for decade before Hamas even existed. Zionist wipe the Palestinian mandate of the map. Made Palestinians stateless. Attempted to destroy there nation. Literally drove Palestinians into the sea.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    Overall you claim facts that are not true,

    No, everything I say is true, and I note you have yet to acknowledge the existence of the occupation.
    conditioned games wrote: »
    you deny Israel faces a real threat to its future survival and you think if Israel trys to be weak and take a soft approach that all will be ok for them. Your knowledge is poor but I will look forward to correcting your lies.

    What you have corrected exactly? Oh wait nothing. You just the same disproven garbage over and over again.

    As for lies, the only lies are your. You have made claims about other posters and myself, and I have asked you back them up, and you have failed to do so numerous times

    As for the threat from ISIS, that is completely hypothetical, as there currently bogged down in Iraq, secondly the other threat is from Egypt and Jordan breaking peace treaties, again completely hypothetical, and just as valid as me saying Israel could attack them (again sarcasm as you have trouble with that). Also, apparently Hamas are Nazi's as well, and yes there horrible charter does want to destroy Israel, but seeing as Israel has already visited such destruction on Palestine already, and are the ones occupying the, and the fact that Hamas only came in existence of decades of occupation, and the fact that a peace offer that is over a decade old that has been ignored by Israel for over a decade is still on offer, all show that your claims aren't true.

    Still, your response is that well someone could break a peace deal, and apparently that is not hypothetical........ TBH, I don't think you understand that word, or understand reality, as you have yet to acknowledge the occupation? Why is that exactly?

    Also, you keep making claims in regards to me, and expect you prove them, otherwise the only conclusion that a reasonable person can come to, is that you are deliberately telling lies, to smear me.


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  • #5071
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,949 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    AngryHippie wrote: »
    It beggars belief the number of people who serve as shills and apologists for the behavior of the IDF and the Israeli government.

    No need for anyone to defend the IDF.

    Most moral army in the world.

    Everyone knows that.

    http://www.icahd.org/faq


  • #5072
    Fiolina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 623 ✭✭✭Fiolina


    Anyone any thoughts on the US fighter jets that flew over Dublin today? IMO it was very wrong, another case of Ireland kissing america's ass.


  • #5073
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Fiolina wrote: »
    Anyone any thoughts on the US fighter jets that flew over Dublin today? IMO it was very wrong, another case of Ireland kissing america's ass.
    I was there with IPSC handing out BDS literature when that happened and I jumped out of my skin. It made me think how horrible it must be in Gaza when these planes are not just flying over the city but also dropping bombs.


  • #5074
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    Fiolina wrote: »
    Anyone any thoughts on the US fighter jets that flew over Dublin today? IMO it was very wrong, another case of Ireland kissing america's ass.
    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    I was there with IPSC handing out BDS literature when that happened and I jumped out of my skin. It made me think how horrible it must be in Gaza when these planes are not just flying over the city but also dropping bombs.

    Mod

    Can we keep this to the Israel-Palestine conflict, there's already a thread here for discussion on the jets. There's also a thread in the Aviation and Aircraft forum, cheers :)

    -KERSPLAT!


  • #5075
    adrag
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭adrag


    Idf are as inhumane as hamas.The ira used to give 10 min warnings before expolding bombs in overcrowded cities, now the "brave" idf use the same tactics.But the worst part is that they are proud of killing kids then have the neck to moan about what Hitler didi or didnt do.pot ...kettle......Black


  • #5076
    Contributor 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭Contributor 2013


    Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;

    How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?

    If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?

    Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?

    Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?

    Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE' :)


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  • #5077
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;

    How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?
    How long should they wait before withdrawing their troops from this latest attempt at stealing Palestinian land?
    I don't think they should wait at all. They should feck off home right now.


  • #5078
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;

    How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?

    If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?

    Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?

    Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?

    Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE' :)

    How should the baby lying asleep beside its mother in a un place of safety with no weapons or resistance fighters in the building protect itself from idf terrorist attacks?



  • #5079
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?

    It no self defense when you attack the other side first, and have been stealing from them for over 60 years, and have been murdering the other sides civilians (the IDF murdered 2 Palestinian teenagers before the 3 Israeli settler teenagers were kidnapped and murdered) before they launched there indiscriminate rocket attacks.

    Now, let me make this clear, indiscriminate attacks on civilians is wrong and there is no excuse.

    There is also no excuse for Israels targeted killing of civilians, targeting civilian infrastructure, negotiating with the leadership in the West Bank in bad faith, stealing Palestinian land, and an siege that is directed at every single Man, Woman and child. I would also like to point out that above is either denied (no matter how many facts are given) or excuses are constantly made by a lot of people who support Israel.
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?

    Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?

    Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?

    So, your using the fact that Palestinian elected Hamas to justify Israel attacks civilians. You know who else pointed that out to justify there attacks on civilians, Osama Bin Laden. I love the logic being used, as its just so easy to point out that fact that such logic can easily be used to justify attacks in the opposite direction, seeing as the Israeli's elect there government.

    Now, IMHO, I reject that logic, and it morally reprehensible, and is used solely used to justify attacks on civilians. IMHO, its completely unacceptable to use who people voted for to any way suggest that they deserve attacks on them. Bringing it up in this context is essentially doing that. I don't care what group its directed against, be it Palestinians, Israelis, Americans or Europeans. It doesn't matter at all, it is an utterly repellant thing to even suggest, and quite frankly anyone using such logic are in some moral camp as Al Qaeda imho.

    Also, your example is utter nonsense, again Israel is occupying the Palestinians, stealing there land. murdering them in the West Bank, where Hamas isn't in charge, where the PA actively work with Israel to prevent attacks, and the fact there is a siege on Gaza that targets everyone civilian or militant a like, among other atrocities carried out in the name of a Greater Israel. BTW, to refer back to your own logic (which I will state again, I find to be morally repugnant), Israelis elected there government who do all this crap, and again you own repellant logic can easily be used in the other direction.

    The fact is that Palestinians, will have there land stolen, be murdered, and have the various indignities of Israels occupation on them, continue to happen, regardless of whether there violent or not. Its amazing that supporters of Israel will refuse to acknowledge that littler fact, despite the readily available evidence to the contrary. Its not hard to find articles in the world media describing the PA cooperation with Israeli security forces, and despite this cooperation again the fact of the constant land theft, Human Rights violations, and murder visiting on the Palestinians, which again all easy to find, all reported by various outlets the world over.

    It doesn't matter, what Palestinians do at this point. Any violence is terrorism, even when its an attack on the IDF. Peaceful protest is also treated as terrorism (and largely ignored in the West). Calls for Boycott, Divestment and sanctions, are also treated as if it was terrorism. Any method of resistance, violent or otherwise, is treated as being completely illegitimate.

    The Palestinians are expected to do nothing, while Israel can steal there land, all the while being aided by the hypocritical West, who will condemn Putin for a land grab, and yet support Israel doing the exact same thing.
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE' :)

    I look forward to you trying to make this point on every article discussing anything to do with another country........


  • #5080
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;

    How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?

    If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?

    Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?

    Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?

    Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE' :)

    What do you think about a state that's been allowed to violate international law for nearly 50 years? Why are you surprised people launch rockets at them?


  • #5081
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;

    How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?

    If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?

    Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?

    Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?

    Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE' :)

    Self Defense indeed :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Let me ask you. I am bringing this conflict down to simple, personal terms.

    If I show up at your house tomorrow with a group of people and tell you that they claim to have a link to your land, so it has been decided to give them your back garden, your garage, your kitchen, hall, and dining room and the upstairs toilet, leaving you with the upstairs bedrooms, the down stairs toilet and the sitting room, the stairs will be shared. Would you have an issue with this if you were given a vote?

    If yes: Then why are people surprised that the indigenous people of historic Palestine rejected the UN/UK proposal back in the 1940's giving away over 50% of the land for a Jewish state?

    IF No: Great. You have more restraint than I and I suspect most would have.

    So now lets move forward a bit. These new people one day beat you and your family up and evict you from the sitting room and the downstairs toilet and call the stairs a buffer zone, which you cannot use. They move some of their friends and extended family into the house to take up the space they have taken from you. You now need a permit to leave the house and have to apply for permission to use the toilets or bathing facilities. You have no direct access to food or means to cook it. The people occupying your house will provide you just enough food to survive. They will control which items you can have and which are to be denied to you and your family. This is now your life. This is all your children and your children's children have to look forward to.

    Do you have a problem with this? Are you driven to despair? to resist? to fight back? To find some way to sneak out of the house (tunnels) to get items to make your life and that of your family a little more bearable? And yes, maybe items which can be used as weapons against the people occupying your home and making your life and that of your family miserable.

    If yes: Then why don't the Palestinians have the same right to resist. How are they Terrorists? Why the condemnation of the Palestinians for building tunnels? Tunnels have been used in sieges throughout history.

    If no: Wow. Serious respect. I could not show this restraint and I would be surprised if many could. So do you consider just giving up your home, what possessions you have left and all you have worked for and you and your family becoming homeless?

    So imagine that you choose to resist, to fight back. You run down the stairs to attack the people occupying your home. However all you have as a weapon is a sling fashioned from a tee shirt and some tennis balls. You are beaten back with force and then the occupiers rush up the stairs and beat up all your family, killing one of them and break up all the beds and furniture you have, burn most of your families clothes. take away all the bed linen except for a few blankets.

    Are you feeling desperate yet? Might you be driven to appeal to some vigilante group for help to fight for your and your families right to live a decent life?

    If yes: So can you not see that the Palestinians turned to Hamas in desperation?

    Fatah are working with the Israeli's supposedly for peace and yet the illegal settlements continue to grow in the West Bank. Children in the West Bank are still dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night by the ITF (T=Terrorist) and arrested for throwing stones. Children in the West Bank have to run the gauntlet of rubber bullets (ball bearings, the size of a grown mans thumb with a light covering of rubber) and tear gas just to get to/from school. There are roads and areas in the West Bank which are "Israeli Only" << THIS IS APARTHEID!!!!

    If no: Ok, so you see the actions of the occupiers as self defense do you? You are officially a saint, or the second coming of the messiah. I don't believe that there are many in this world who could live under such conditions, seeing no end to it for them, their children and their children's children and not fight back. I know I could not.

    So as silly as the above seems, now imagine this type of scenario on a national scale. Can you name any other country who would agree and continue to live peacefully under the conditions the Palestinians are forced to live under and who would offer no resistance?

    I in no way condone the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel as it is possible that civilians could get hurt. But I fully support Hamas's right to exist and resist against the zionist, racist, apartheid, occupation force which is the Israeli state. The state of Israel was built with the terrorist actions of groups like Irgun, Haganah, Stern Gang, who used violence and ethnic cleansing to remove indigenous people from their homes to give to European Jews, fleeing persecution and to build the Jewish state.

    Also IMHO, to call the Hamas projectiles "Rockets" is to give them more credit that they deserve. They are home made using fertiliser as explosives and those that get through the Iron Dome and don't fall in open ground seem to cause little enough damage. I have looked for photos of the damage and have seen pot holes in roads, holes in walls or roofs of homes, garages, damaged cars in garages etc. They don't even explode fully on impact. They are more akin to crude cannon balls. Now I admit that I would not like to live with the threat of these projectiles hitting my house and possibly injuring/killing my loved ones, but to call them rockets.... ?

    I know there have been people killed as a result of these "rockets" fired by Hamas and I in no way condone this. It is a reprehensible act to endanger civilian lives. However these "rockets" are fired as you say INDISCRIMINATELY. Unlike those of the Israeli army and air force who specifically target civilian homes, infrastructure and UN locations where they have been informed on numerous occasions that Palestinian civilians, who have been displaced by the Israeli warning of impending attack, are sheltering.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWCdhC8B9YQ#t=727

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=724426


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  • #5082
    adrag
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭adrag


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;

    How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?

    If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?

    Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?

    Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?

    Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE' :)

    First of all gaza isn't isreal's back garden, isreal is Palistine's front garden.So when the ira plants a bomb its the innocent people's fault for not evacuating fast enough.im not anti jew, im anti-bully/isreali


  • #5083
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    And the land grab continues

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israel-claims-400-hectares-west-bank-state-use-1463334


  • #5084
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    And the land grab continues

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israel-claims-400-hectares-west-bank-state-use-1463334
    And the IDF apologists will still lie that everything will be hunky dory if those evil terrorists would just stop evilly terroristically defending their country.


  • #5085
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    And the land grab continues

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israel-claims-400-hectares-west-bank-state-use-1463334

    It amazing that such a land grab, will not be considered a violation of a ceasefire by supporters of Israel......


  • #5086
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wes wrote: »
    It amazing that such a land grab, will not be considered a violation of a ceasefire by supporters of Israel......


    You'll find that the 'ceasefire' will refer to Gaza only. After the last one they went after Hamas operatives in the West Bank, just to get a dig in. Classy folk that way. They like rubbing noses in the dirt.


  • #5087
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Nodin wrote: »
    You'll find that the 'ceasefire' will refer to Gaza only.
    After the last one they went after Hamas operatives in the West Bank, just to get a dig in. Classy folk that way. They like rubbing noses in the dirt.

    Oh, I know it will only refer to Gaza. I am just pointing out that a lot of people seem to think that Hamas violated the last ceasefire, because of what the kidnap and murder of the 3 Israeli settler teenagers (whether they did it or not). So, I think it only fair to consider going forward any land grabs by Israel in the West Bank in a similar light imho.


  • #5088
    chicken foot
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭chicken foot


    I'm only coming in here for the lol's at this stage. The pro IDF haven't a leg to stand on! Their rabbiting on from the Hasbara handbook only proves that they will swallow whatever they are told without researching themselves. I suppose with the Palestinians being Muslim they're "easy" to criticise until they're faced with facts that is!


  • #5089
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wes wrote: »
    Oh, I know it will only refer to Gaza. I am just pointing out that a lot of people seem to think that Hamas violated the last ceasefire, because of what the kidnap and murder of the 3 Israeli settler teenagers (whether they did it or not). So, I think it only fair to consider going forward any land grabs by Israel in the West Bank in a similar light imho.

    Fair eh? Ye must be one of them militants.....


  • #5090
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    I in no way condone the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel as it is possible that civilians could get hurt. But I fully support Hamas's right to exist and resist against the zionist, racist, apartheid, occupation force which is the Israeli state. The state of Israel was built with the terrorist actions of groups like Irgun, Haganah, Stern Gang, who used violence and ethnic cleansing to remove indigenous people from their homes to give to European Jews, fleeing persecution and to build the Jewish state.

    Out of interest, what is your ideal 'end scenario' for the region? Removal of all settlers from the West Bank and Gaza? Removal of all Israelis from the UN-Palestine partition? Removal of all Israelis from Israel full stop? Or some other solution that I'm not seeing?


  • #5091
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Out of interest, what is your ideal 'end scenario' for the region? Removal of all settlers from the West Bank and Gaza? Removal of all Israelis from the UN-Palestine partition? Removal of all Israelis from Israel full stop? Or some other solution that I'm not seeing?


    They moved them out of Gaza and into the West Bank in 2005.


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  • #5092
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Out of interest, what is your ideal 'end scenario' for the region? Removal of all settlers from the West Bank and Gaza? Removal of all Israelis from the UN-Palestine partition? Removal of all Israelis from Israel full stop? Or some other solution that I'm not seeing?



    What my ideal scenario is is irrelevant, I am not Palestinian and have no ties to the land of Historic Palestine. I am simply a supporter of the Palestinian people in their struggle against their occupation and oppression by the zionist, terrorist, racist, apartheid state that is Israel. It is up to the Palestinian people to state what they would accept and continue the struggle until they receive the human rights under international law.

    However what I would personally like to see is the removal of all illegal settlers from ALL Palestinian land as per the 1947 map.

    The very least the people of Palestine deserve and should accept (IMHO) is going back to the 1967 borders, with all illegal settelers/settlements removed from the west bank. This could happen over a period of time agreed with the Palestinian people/government. The city of Jerusalem to be shared equally and all parties to be allowed visit any area that they hold sacred. Also the Palestinians must be allowed to travel freely and without harassment between Gaza and the West Bank. If they cannot have a contiguous state, then this should be afforded to them without question.

    Along with getting some of their land returned to them, the illegal siege and blockade must be lifted. Palestinians are allowed full membership of the UN and be recognised as such and have the right to self determination. They get their full fishing rights, control of their airspace and any and all natural resources.

    Israel, the US, the UK and any other country who sold arms/munitions to Israel to make sizable contributions to the rebuilding of Gaza and the Israel and the US to stay the HELL out of Palestinians affairs, unless it is to offer humanitarian aid. There should be NO Israeli soldiers/police holding jurisdiction over any part of Palestine. If the Palestinians can not provide state security straight away, maybe, with the agreement of the Palestinian people/government of course, the UN could help out until the Palestinians can take over the role themselves.

    Finally all illegally held Palestinian's to be freed from Israeli prisons.

    This should allow the Palestinian people to live in peace with dignity and for the younger generation to have a future other then joining the resistance and continuing the struggle against the occupying zionist, terrorist, racist, apartheid state that is Israel.


    So I have answered your question, how about you provide your ideal end scenario now?


  • #5093
    chicken foot
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭chicken foot


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Out of interest, what is your ideal 'end scenario' for the region? Removal of all settlers from the West Bank and Gaza? Removal of all Israelis from the UN-Palestine partition? Removal of all Israelis from Israel full stop? Or some other solution that I'm not seeing?

    You do realise that this notion you are putting forward as a ludicrous solution is EXACTLY what The Israelis have been doing to The Palestinians all these years?


  • #5094
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    chicken foot wrote: »
    You do realise that this notion you are putting forward as a ludicrous solution is EXACTLY what The Israelis have been doing to The Palestinians all these years?

    I wasn't aware that Israel had managed to remove the bulk of the Palestinian population from the occupied territories, nor was I aware for that matter that the Israeli government had made its sworn objective the removal of all Palestinians from those lands - don't get me wrong, you will find political parties that argue for something like that, but their hardly a majority. What's been going on 'all these years' has been in my view a policy of displacement, with targeted colonization as well as a reduction in quality of life for the Palestinian population, with a view towards encouraging their emigration. As awful as this is, I refuse to categorise it as some people have here, as genocide, nor does it fit our traditional model of what ethnic cleansing it. I don't think its coneding too much to suggest that what Israel is doing might be rather unprecedented.
    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    What my ideal scenario is is irrelevant, I am not Palestinian and have no ties to the land of Historic Palestine. I am simply a supporter of the Palestinian people in their struggle against their occupation and oppression by the zionist, terrorist, racist, apartheid state that is Israel. It is up to the Palestinian people to state what they would accept and continue the struggle until they receive the human rights under international law.

    However what I would personally like to see is the removal of all illegal settlers from ALL Palestinian land as per the 1947 map.

    The very least the people of Palestine deserve and should accept (IMHO) is going back to the 1967 borders, with all illegal settelers/settlements removed from the west bank. This could happen over a period of time agreed with the Palestinian people/government. The city of Jerusalem to be shared equally and all parties to be allowed visit any area that they hold sacred. Also the Palestinians must be allowed to travel freely and without harassment between Gaza and the West Bank. If they cannot have a contiguous state, then this should be afforded to them without question.

    Along with getting some of their land returned to them, the illegal siege and blockade must be lifted. Palestinians are allowed full membership of the UN and be recognised as such and have the right to self determination. They get their full fishing rights, control of their airspace and any and all natural resources.

    Israel, the US, the UK and any other country who sold arms/munitions to Israel to make sizable contributions to the rebuilding of Gaza and the Israel and the US to stay the HELL out of Palestinians affairs, unless it is to offer humanitarian aid. There should be NO Israeli soldiers/police holding jurisdiction over any part of Palestine. If the Palestinians can not provide state security straight away, maybe, with the agreement of the Palestinian people/government of course, the UN could help out until the Palestinians can take over the role themselves.

    Finally all illegally held Palestinian's to be freed from Israeli prisons.

    This should allow the Palestinian people to live in peace with dignity and for the younger generation to have a future other then joining the resistance and continuing the struggle against the occupying zionist, terrorist, racist, apartheid state that is Israel.

    So I have answered your question, how about you provide your ideal end scenario now?

    I'll detail my own proposed solution again shortly, but I should first just point out a few problems that appear with yours. Firstly on the matter of simply returning to the borders of 1967 - a complete withdrawal of all settlers and settlements from Israel back to its own state would require the relocation of some 534,000 Israelis. Now I noted you didn't mention the 'right of return' which you might well be commended for, because that would involve another 5,000,000 refugees from across the Middle East potentially being allowed into Israel, with obvious implications on ethnic tension and quality of life. Moreover, such a relocation would also require the vacation of parts of the West Bank which are now predominately Jewish and have been for quite a while, I mean East Jerusalem (that's just the Palestinian part) alone is about half Israeli, to say nothing of the portion of the Arab population which would prefer to live under Israeli rule (about 44% if I recall correctly).

    All of this is to say nothing of the difficulty of actually trying to convince a population under occasional rocket fire and terrorist threat, that they should withdraw from their homes (illegal I know) and hand over security interests to a nation that they loathe and loathes them right back, under the ostensibly aim of putting an end to violence. This is actually where I think most posters and I would differ, I don't believe that is possible to simply compel the Israeli population to accept a settlement it doesn't like, we're talking about a nation raised on the mythology of 'never again' and an increasingly influential segment of the population with hard-line religious views. Oh and Nukes.

    My own view would be the best solution to the conflict being a population and territorial transfer - East Jerusalem and the Seam Line to Israel, the surroundings of the Gaza Strip and territory along the Dead Sea to Palestine. Withdrawal of settlers beyond these lines and grant Palestinians living their the choice of Israeli or Palestinian citizenship. I've not really bought the Israeli argument that the Jordan Valley is some vital Maginot Line that MUST be held, so clearing that area of Israeli security opens up a lot of land for commercial use. Then all that needs to be done is convincing both sides to stick to the borders and not use them as a tennis net for a game of ordnance.


  • #5095
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that Israel had managed to remove the bulk of the Palestinian population from the occupied territories, nor was I aware for that matter that the Israeli government had made its sworn objective the removal of all Palestinians from those lands - don't get me wrong, you will find political parties that argue for something like that, but their hardly a majority. What's been going on 'all these years' has been in my view a policy of displacement, with targeted colonization as well as a reduction in quality of life for the Palestinian population, with a view towards encouraging their emigration. As awful as this is, I refuse to categorise it as some people have here, as genocide, nor does it fit our traditional model of what ethnic cleansing it. I don't think its coneding too much to suggest that what Israel is doing might be rather unprecedented.

    This traditional model you speak of could be interpreted as being subjective and pursuant to what is recognised by the majority of legal authorities throughout the world for the purpose of giving it legal credibility. though down through the ages there have been various definitions and interpretations of the world be they scholarly or legal, a couple of examples...

    Raphael Lemkin a Polish lawyer of Jewish descent..

    Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups . . ..

    Rome Statute of the international criminal court...

    Article 6 of the Rome Statute provides that ‘genocide’ means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    those are but two examples though there are many more.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions


  • #5096
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Such as the UN definition which reads:

    'Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)'

    Now technically speaking this could be interpreted as the murder of two people from the same ethnic group being an act of genocide. More recent cases have suggested that a measure of significant is required:

    'The aim of the Genocide Convention is to prevent the intentional destruction of entire human groups, and the part targeted must be significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole.'

    Now many of these debates may well be academic - 200,000 people have been killed in Syria, is this any more or less objectionable than 200,000 people being killed purely on the grounds of their language for example? I believe current estimates of refugees from that same conflict reach about 3 million, should this be regarded as in some ways more or less outrageous than say the flight of 3 million Germans from Czechoslovakia after WW2? Naturally enough these are not questions with simple answers, but I think if you put this case in the context of other genocides in recent years, a pretty straightforward conclusion comes to mind.


  • #5097
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    actually no. no a straightforward conclusion does not come to mind. it is anything but straightforward. lets leave other situations and nations to one side, in this instance we are talking about Israel and the Palestinians.

    What the Israelis are inflicting upon the Palestinian population in my opinion is a form of incremental genocide. there are two elements to genocide - mental and physical. you dont need to kill all of them all you need to have is the mental intent to terrorise, kill some of them and inflict misery and suffering (collective punishment?) upon them, thats the mental intent. the physical intent is quite obvious that would be killing people, destroying property and lives, expulsion of people and stealing of land, maiming and injuring people, inflicting psychological trauma, enforcing incredibly awful conditions of life that lead to suffering and death, infringement of freedom and dignity so on so forth..

    If the Israelis ever end up in the dock of the ICC, brighter people than me would define what they are doing for what it is, prosecute them properly and nail those responsible for their atrocities to the wall. in my opinion what it is incremental genocide presided over by an apartheid regime.


  • #5098
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I'll detail my own proposed solution again shortly, but I should first just point out a few problems that appear with yours. Firstly on the matter of simply returning to the borders of 1967 - a complete withdrawal of all settlers and settlements from Israel back to its own state would require the relocation of some 534,000 Israelis. Now I noted you didn't mention the 'right of return' which you might well be commended for, because that would involve another 5,000,000 refugees from across the Middle East potentially being allowed into Israel, with obvious implications on ethnic tension and quality of life.
    Maybe, just maybe, if Israel hadn't expelled them in the first place those refugees wouldn't feel so bad about it? So you're basically discounting the right of return as EVER being appropriate. a.k.a. you support land grabs and population transfer.
    Who would have guessed you fully support Zionist expansionism?


  • #5099
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Now many of these debates may well be academic - 200,000 people have been killed in Syria, is this any more or less objectionable than 200,000 people being killed purely on the grounds of their language for example?
    There's been at least 200,000 cases of whataboutery so far on this thread too. All from the pro-Zionist expansion side naturally. Something bad happened somewhere sometime so yes, it IS OK to bomb sleeping babies... am I doing it right?


  • #5100
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    WakeUp wrote: »
    What the Israelis are inflicting upon the Palestinian population in my opinion is a form of incremental genocide. there are two elements to genocide - mental and physical. you dont need to kill all of them all you need to have is the mental intent to terrorise, kill some of them and inflict misery and suffering (collective punishment?) upon them, thats the mental intent. the physical intent is quite obvious that would be killing people, destroying property and lives, expulsion of people and stealing of land, maiming and injuring people, inflicting psychological trauma, enforcing incredibly awful conditions of life that lead to suffering and death, infringement of freedom and dignity so on so forth..

    Which is all well and good except there is no charge for incremental genocide, you're either slaughtering people en masse or not. Now whilst I would agree with most of what you say on what Israel is doing, I wouldn't classify it as genocide or genocide lite, but something demanding a new categorization due to its pretty unprecedented nature.
    If the Israelis ever end up in the dock of the ICC, brighter people than me would define what they are doing for what it is, prosecute them properly and nail those responsible for their atrocities to the wall. in my opinion what it is incremental genocide presided over by an apartheid regime.

    The Laconic response to that would of course be 'IF'. Something tells me Israel is about as inclined to hand over its citizens for international judgement as Russia is, especially whilst the conflict is ongoing.


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  • #5101
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    The state of Israel has had a court ruling against them and a retired army general Amos Yaron of war crimes and genocide in a war crimes tribunal in Malaysia.
    The first charge against Amos Yaron for War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity, and Genocide is as follows:

    The defendant Amos Yaron perpetrated War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity, and Genocide in his capacity as the Commanding Israeli General in military control of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Israeli occupied Lebanon in September of 1982 when he knowingly facilitated and permitted the large-scale Massacre of the Residents of those two camps in violation of the Hague Regulations on Land Warfare of 1907; the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949; the 1948 Genocide Convention; the Nuremberg Charter (1945), the Nuremberg Judgment (1946), and the Nuremberg Principles (1950); customary international law, ‘jus cogens’, the Laws of War, and International Humanitarian Law.

    The other charge, which is against the State of Israel for the Crime of Genocide and War Crimes, is as follows:

    From 1948 and continuing to date, the State of Israel (hereafter ‘the Defendant’) carried out against the Palestinian people a series of acts namely killing, causing serious bodily harm and deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/state-of-israel-charged-for-crime-of-genocide-and-war-crimes-kuala-lumpur-tribunal/5346375

    Lovely people them zionists are, everyone should protect them at all costs :rolleyes:


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