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REDUNDANCY

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  • 13-11-2008 3:21am
    #1
    pirelli
    Registered Users Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭


    In a hypotetical situation would a redundancy be unfair or actionable through the EAT ( Employment appeals Tribunial ) in the following scenario.

    Say I work in an accounts department for 7 years and say I am graded as an excellent employee. My role was accounts, my boss pushed/pressured me to fill other roles within the office. My boss was satisfied with my performance in these roles and called on me to support these roles in addition to my present position.

    These same roles were made vacant and the boss advertised for new hires for them. I offered to take the position and the boss said he would think about it. The business was getting busier and there were no significant changes that could justify a redundancy.

    Soon after the boss called me in for a meeting and suddenly said he was making me redundant and distributing my role to each of the other roles that he was advertising.

    Am I being unfairly targeted for redundancy and would such a redundancy be actionable in the EAT.

    Also say that within the same business the printers had improved the technology system so that 7 printers would be made redundant would this justify making a much needed accounts employ redundant.

    What legal remedy would you take.


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    #2
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Solicitor + EAT tbh.

    Redundancy means your job / role no longer exists, they can't hire a replacement.


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    #3
    servicecharge
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭servicecharge


    In such a scenario I would say that there is a case to answer. I would very much recommend a solicitor.


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    #4
    Maximilian
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    Doesn't necessarily mean the job no longer exists. It can mean other things, like not being able to afford to keep a person on.

    The key question is was the dismissal or redundancy unfair.

    I find some people think that employers don't have the right to let people go, which is not the case. Almost every person who loses their job feels it is unfair, and it often is in the normal sense of the word. That's a lot different to unfair in the legal sense however.


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    #5
    ALFIET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭ALFIET


    As a HR Manager I would need to see all the details pertaining to the situation as I am only getting one side of the coin with this thread but with a redundancy regardless of how unfair you feel you have been treated, the following applies:

    It is not related to your performance, good or bad unless say 2 of 5 of the same position are to be let go and one of the criteria for selection is performance reviews, disciplinaries or attendance etc - IN A REDUNDANCY SITUATION YOU ARE FORCED TO SELECT EMPLOYEES WHO MAY BE DOING A GOOD JOB - IT IS NOT PERSONAL



    The role is being made redundant not the employee.

    Your role as an accountant is different than those of the printing side so it does not apply as far as i can read so far.

    It is feasible due to economic conditions to make a role redundant and spread elements of that role amongst others within the company. Say a Purchasing Manager is let go, then the role of purchasing will still need to be done but it can be absorbed into other roles and dispersed.

    They cannot hire an accountant to replace you if they are making you redundant. They need to be careful there,

    Redundancy can apply if

    (a) either their job has been made redundant or
    (b) they have been selected for redundancy from a group of people doing the same or
    similar job.

    If the job was unique and the skills are unique and the job is disappearing and they are the only person doing that job - it is still legal under redundancy terms.

    Other things will come into play also like consultation, notice, proper notification and paperwork, communication, payments both statutory or ex gratia
    Any solicitor will take on a case for unfair dismissal regardless so you can always go to talk to them for free first consultation or indeed your citizens information bureau.

    However in terms of a healthy approach, the fact remains you are being made redundant, in what is a time of high unemployment. Proactivity now should be applied to reskilling, upskilling, CV prep, interviews, agency visits, visits to FAS etc to try to get a new job.
    The market has swung back in favour of employers so you need to get the finger out and try to look for another role

    No matter what anyone says and regardless of the rights and wrongs no company wants to hire someone who has taken a previous company to court. That is the reality, although will never be admitted to publicly.


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    #6
    bekz09
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭bekz09


    should the company not offer them suitable alternatives if there are upcoming vacancy's?


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    #7
    ALFIET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭ALFIET


    Yes but not if too much of a skill/ exp/ qual gap exists.

    Lets say an accountant is being made redundant but vacancy exists for a printer (exp) well then there is no need to offer alternative role as the skillset and experience and even qualification do not match.

    As i say all the time it is difficult- no impossible - to give specific advice from one side of a story,

    Again my personal advice is to get more solid advice from the legal profession but also to consider the bigger picture of the potential impact of taking company to court and being unemployed.


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    #8
    Sidetracker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭Sidetracker


    I have just been made redundant on the grounds of a fall off in business. Whilst I have no problem with that, I do have a serious problem with my selection for redundancy. Let me first state that there is no issue with my work, attitude, attendance etc;. There are 26 employees and I was informed that I was being made redundant, without consultation. The other 25 employees were given the option to take a 10% pay cut or redundancy and a week to think it over. A week later, the other 25 employees returned with an offer to work a 4 day week and no pay cut. This was accepted by the Company. It is my view that I was unfairly selected for redundancy as I was not given the same choice. I am 66 years of age and I had an un-written agreement with the M.D. of the Company that I would retire on my 70th Birthday. There is no contract of employment in existance in this Company.


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    #9
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,245 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Sidetracker wrote: »
    There is no contract of employment in existance in this Company.
    There is, it just isn't written - you don't have a written contract when you buy a bar of chocolate do you? But ther eis still a contract. The absence of a written contract may be an offence on the employer's behalf.

    You really need to speak to a solicitor, especially given your age may give rise to certain unusual situations.


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    #10
    Sidetracker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭Sidetracker


    Victor wrote: »
    There is, it just isn't written - you don't have a written contract when you buy a bar of chocolate do you? But ther eis still a contract. The absence of a written contract may be an offence on the employer's behalf.

    You really need to speak to a solicitor, especially given your age may give rise to certain unusual situations.

    Thank you Viktor. I would appriciate it if you would expand a bit on this un-written contract. I have not come across this before. Is it written in Statute somewhere ?.


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    #11
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    Take a look here:
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/contracts-of-employment/contract_of_employment
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/redundancy/redundancy


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    #12
    Sidetracker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭Sidetracker


    To RC IRL. Regarding Contract of Employment and un-written sevtions, has un-written laws been tested in The Tribunal / Court ant are any test cases. In my situation, I was given a new contract of employment after a number of years it was never enforced and I have continued to work as normal. Ie: Icontinued to work a 40 hour 5 day week which has gone on for 3 years now.


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    #13
    krpc
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭krpc


    Sidetracker wrote: »
    To RC IRL. Regarding Contract of Employment and un-written sevtions, has un-written laws been tested in The Tribunal / Court ant are any test cases. In my situation, I was given a new contract of employment after a number of years it was never enforced and I have continued to work as normal. Ie: Icontinued to work a 40 hour 5 day week which has gone on for 3 years now.

    Should an employee perform a function/role within their employment for a minimum period of one year and one day, then it is accepted that in the absence of a written contract, that function/role and the particulars relating to it (i.e. hours of work) form part of the employee's terms and conditions of employment. That is an example of an "unwritten" term within a contract.


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    #14
    Sidetracker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭Sidetracker


    Hi all. I am now redundant, how do I claim back tax paid in 2010 ?


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    #15
    krpc
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭krpc


    Sidetracker wrote: »
    Hi all. I am now redundant, how do I claim back tax paid in 2010 ?

    You might have better luck asking that question in the Taxation forum.


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    #16
    The.Russian.one
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭The.Russian.one


    Hi guys I hope you might recommend something. Sorry I wrote a lot in here.
    The thing is that I've been working for a clothes shop in Swords for nearly 3 years now. I am a very good employee and I have been told by my manager on my review that I have an outstanding performance :rolleyes:(and thus my rate of pay was increase), everything was great, but when the Recession "knocked our shop door" my managers (2 of them) changed their behaviour and attitude towards me:(, they started bully me, pritty seriously- they numurously falsly accused me of different unreal things without the proof, keep changing the rosters nearly everyday,prohibit staff members talking to me, were refusing pay my holiday pay, it's been happening for almost 2 years or so, but I said to myself that I won't tolerate that and I lodget a complaint to the Health & Safety Authority. I got a nice letter and my employer got a letter too saying that there is a record of a complaint in the H&S Authority database now. The "bullying environment" has slightly became better since then but still bullying continoues regularly. But that's grand with me as long as I get my wages paid haha.
    Our business has experienced a downturn -but NOT TOO SEVERE. From 12 staff we now have 3 staff members left only, we also got 5% wages cut, but recently the employer gave all of us a "protective notice of redundancy" and after just 1 week employer has cut our hours from 39hrs to 30hrs. I didn't agree to reduction of my hours & neither I disagreed. We just got letters saying that from this week our hours will be reduced. The thing is that I read somwhere that employer cannot reduce hours as it is a change of terms of agreed contract. It also says online that if I refuse to accept reduced hours- employer will most likely make me redundant. But the thing is that I won't accept redundancy either, because I believe that, even business is not at it's best shape, we do have lots of customers and we definitely DO make ENOUGH profit to keep us= 2 staff members on 39 hour contract, I also don't believe that employer cannot afford me on my previous full time hours contract, so I believe there will be an unjustified redundancy situation. I also know that "redundancy note" was just to scear us so that we agree to reduced working hours, I do not believe my employer at all, they are just bullyies and they just try to get rid of me. I also read on the internet that If my employer makes me redundant because I refuse reduced working hours- employer will have to prove that they cannot afford to keep me on my usual terms of contract (39 hrs), Is that true?:cool:?? I have an appointment with the "free of charge" solicitor from Legal Aid Board- I will discuss the matter with him

    Really sorry for mistakes,
    Thanks eveyone
    Alex :eek:


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    #17
    The.Russian.one
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭The.Russian.one


    I'd like to know HOW exactly employer will have to prove (to Labour Relation Comissioneer) that they cannot financially afford keeping Me on previous hours? As employer will be required to prove the fact, am I right?
    Thanx again


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    #18
    Sidetracker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭Sidetracker


    Hi Russian One. Seems to me that you have a number of options .

    A) Bullying
    B) Constructive Dismissal
    C) Unfair Dismissal
    D) Unfair Redundancy
    E) Unfair Selection For Redundancy
    F) The Right to Dignity In The Work Place

    In the case of A) you would have to prove the case, which would require at least a Solicitor, and possibly a Barrester.

    B) would be the same as A).
    Likewise C). Also D).
    E) & F) you can take yourself.

    You would not have to prove E) or F) as the company would have to prove you wrong. Any of these cases should be brought through "The Employment Appeals Tribunal" where you incur NO costs, unless you chose to engage legal representation. Even then you would only be liabel for YOUR OWN costs, win, loose or draw.

    It is inportant that you get legal advice as to which rout to go, as each option is distinctly different from each other.

    I would be very annoyed about letting the bullying go unchecked, as it is disgracefull behavour. Good luck.


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    #19
    The.Russian.one
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭The.Russian.one


    Dear SideTracker! Thank you for a very clear explanation and advice!


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    #20
    The.Russian.one
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭The.Russian.one


    Hi, I will definitely be able to prove (A) that I have been bullied regularly and continuously, coz after I rang Health & Safety Authority they advised that I should keep a detailed record of any attempts of bullying including dates, witnesses, etc. I also described the situation to them they said I certainly have been bullied by my employer and this must end, and i think I remember something The Right to Dignity In The Work Place. They were very helpfull even psichologically.


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    #21
    Sidetracker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭Sidetracker


    "The Right to Dignity in The Work Place" is written into Irish Employment Law. It means that , if an employer or any other employee of the Company, abuses or embarrases you in front of other employees or others, they are depriving you of your "right to dignity in the work place" and that is bullying. You must be aware that if you go down the road of confrontation with your employer, it will most likely lead to you leaving that company. Think about it, but you must adress the bullying, otherwise your work will become a millstone around your neck.


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